What do you think about basic stipends?

Every single L$ printed by linden lab means deleting USDs from business owners' and SL investors wallets. When LL creates new L$, IT IS NOT FREE. It is from our wallets. So what should be the balance? is the basic stipend strategy right or should change?

Wow, it's not often you see an unbiased poll with a biased post. Normally it's the other way around. (this is not an attack, just a humorous observation)

Personally, I'm a basic account holder and I feel the stipend is a good thing. I don't personally care, personally, whether I get the stipend or not, sicne I've bought more L$ on the market than I'd get in a year of stipends. But there are those who do use it. They don't cash it out on the LindeX at L$300/$1, they put it into the pockets of the business owners. They get a little bit of satisfaction, and the buisness owners have the 'magic L$' in their control.

The strength of the L$, lacking any kind of controls that real economies have (i.e. loans, savings, bonds, stocks, etc.), is solely dependant on the levels it is sold at. So really, the problem is buisness owners selling below the rate to unload because they're carrying more tier than they can afford up front.

Eliminating the stipend isn't going to stop this practice, surely you can see that. People will always sell below the market rate to unload, driving the price down. Then the next person will sell even lower.

Because SL does not have a full economy, or barely even half of one, I think LL should assume those controls are in place and set a fixed exchange rate at L$250/$1, which is their target rate. Then they can play with the sinks and supplies.

But really, the basic stipend is not a problem. It's a gentle incentive for new users to get involved with SL. But at L$200/month it's barely enough to buy one good outfit.

There are many accounts out there that although basic were NOT free. 21 of our family for example are basic but paid for their accounts before the free account ever existed. You most certainly did not pay for them. Some of these accounts are actually old enough that at one time or another they did pay tier (it used to be possible for basic to own land). Many of them pay far more in classified ad and upload costs than they recieve in stipends. You are NOT paying for them and I am betting these accounts are not the only ones that are more than supporting themselves.

Honestly a far better solution is to put in more sinks than to remove stipend.

Yes they paid to enter SL life, and entered.

If they paid tier, they paid it to own land, and owned land, not for the stippends.

So what???? They are purchasing services not the stipends


No i am paying for them, i am investitng to earn L$ and because of printing money, my lots of hours to work in SL is loosing value because of devaluation.

No basic account is supporting their stipends. I;f they do business, they earn if they pay tier, it is for land not for the stipends, if they pat for classifieds, it is paying for classifieds, not for stipends. Noone is paying for stipends, even premium accounts.


Stop printing money. Or calculate better that how much L$ you must print. If there is a free L$ source, why do you think L$ worths USD? what if a guy puts 30 mkillion L$ up for sale at rate 800/ USD?!?! ot 1600/ USD or 10000/ USD who will decide this? What are the parameters to calculate the value of L$? NOTHING because LL is printing L$ for free. and basic account owners getting L$ FOR FREE.

The value of the L$ is calculated based on the AVERAGE rate sold the day before.

So actually your L$ are being devalued *because* of that guy who sold "30 mkillion L$" at 800/USD. The stipends themselves are not devaluing it because noone who collects the stipends would have "30 mkillion L$" to drop on the market at 800/USD. That person you are talking about is a buisness owner, and probable tier holder, like yourself. HE chose to push the L$ down rather than release his L$ slower at a higher rate and make more money. That's the kind of person you should be going after, not the person who plays SL because they find it fun and a nice place to hang out.

A primary school child or most of SL playrs could believe you but not me.
These stipends are like rain drops and making a river or a lake in the business owner's wallet. The important thing is not "who is selling", it is "what is the source".If there are 50 million L$ for sale but only 5 million buy request, of course one will have to sell their L$s for cheaper. this is about buyer and seller amount difference.
Of course many vendors wont want to remove basic stipends because they think basic stipends are money for them, people buy things from them using their free money, and vendors are selling these free L$s for USD. This is not being respectfull to yourself.

Continue to think: "oh i made a cloth 265143562 months ago and still selling at my shop, i dont care it worths usd1 or usd5, i already got alot from this cloth."
Continue to think: "removing basic stipends?!?!NO, my customers are buying my clothes via these L$s and i am making money with them. some less or some more i dont care."

I hope you are right. I hope FREE L$ is not damaging the value of L$ as you said. But it is all about economy. Think ONCE in your life. If a goverment in the world printing FREE USD for all its residents WEEKLY. How much could USD worth?


Edit: AND if it is necessary to give free L$ to residents(i, am still not sure), give what you collect from world via classfieds, texture uploading,find places cost etc. Not much extra L$.

As a premium member I think that basic stipends are fine within reason. They give new Avatars a little play money to start them off and time to look around before deciding to go premium.

But......perhaps they should not be allowed to sell them (Lindens) on the Lindon site and if technology permits elsewhere. That may stop some people who feel they have a good business plan running loads of alts, sitting in camp chairs, never spending money, and selling out Lindens for real dollars......

In business there are some clients you do not want. That class of person is an almost perfect example

Ok, i believe in democracy, and it seems majority like stipends.
So it is fine.
"Despite being offered the opportunity to escape the sentence and go into exile, Socrates chose to drink the hemlock because he had willingly agreed to abide by the laws of Athens, and believed that his avoidance of the sentence would dishonor that contract."

Careful, statements like this will make this look less like a discussion and more like a flame war. Just something to consider.




Ahh, but while they are in your wallet, they are not devaluing the L$. In fact, if they are in your wallet, they are out of circulation. The question I see is, what do the business owners do with them?

Do they hold on to them and sell them at a higher and more profitable rate?

or

Do they sell them below the going rate to unload them cheaply and further push the L$ down?



I think this is one of the larger misconceptions. If you look at this thread, you'll see that buying is keeping pace if not outpacing selling currently. And with daily volumes at L$2Mil+ you're theoretically looking at a week or so to sell at a reasonable rate.

Unless you keep getting undercut. Which is the point I'm trying to make. The low linden is due to selling low because the buisness owners in SL are in a price war trying to sell as fast as possible. This is what's responsible for the drop in L$.

To try and put it in perspective, say I gave you my stipend. You could take it and never cash it out. It would be just like I never recieved a stipend. Those L$, because they are not moving, are not influencing the economy at all. It isn't until you sell them that they will impact the value of the L$.

If you sell them above the current rate, they will actually help *increase* the value of the L$.

If you sell them below the current rate, they will help decrease the value of the L$.

But until you sell them, they have no impact on the strength of the L$.



At what rate? Again, if they sell above the current rate, these free L$ are actually going to improve the value of the L$.

It isn't as if buyers can choose which rate to buy at, the LindeX provides the best price for the amount of money paid. Smaller transactions actually pay above the rate, while larger ones can pay below. But if there is no supply below the current rate, then the buyers will be paying at better rates. The issue you're having is with buisness owners who are selling below the rate.

Think of it this way. Let's say the stipend is eliminated. The buisness owners will still have tiers to pay and other costs. They will want to unload as fast as possible. To do so, they will have to undercut the other buisness owners to get their L$ sold first.

In fact, now that I think of it, the fact that tier is paid in USD might be a large cause of this. It is the main drive to unload a lot of L$ quickly. Maybe LL should take Tier payments in L$ at L$260/$1 or so, and sell it themselves at L$250/$1 on the lindex.

Again, I feel the only way to keep this from happening is to set a fixed rate. The L$ cannot stand on it's own any more than a chair with two legs can.



It wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on, but as I said before, the L$ is not a real currency. It lacks *ALL* the underpinnings of a real currency. There is no gold backing, no federal interest rates, no stock exchange, no issued bonds, no loans, no savings. The L$ lacks every form of economic control that a real currency holds, hence the chair with two legs.

To sum up what my point is:

The Stipends are not the issue that should be addressed first. The sellers who are posting below the current rate are the direct influence in the declining L$.

But I do share your hope. Whoever is right and whatever solution is decided on, I hope that it works out for SL.

no

You can wait 1 day, 2 days, one week, but one day you must sell to pay tier.


LOL it is my data And my thread

Ok then tell them all to put for 20-30 points better rates. Because this is an endless race.


Wrong. It takes pages to explain why this is wrong. I simply wont.*1.


Really?

Oh really?

wrong.Look at *1.


You can be right, as i said, i am not sure. My point is, i want SL to decide its own way. And L$ to decide its own value. But printing money is annoying me. Because it is like touchig to the natural world of L$. Maybe i am wrong, maybe touching its natural world is in its natural world too

Frankly, I'm tired of these threads with people bitching about the declining $L and how the stipends need to be removed, blah blah blah. I am a premium member and don't think that the stipends have all that much impact on the issue.

I find it interesting that the people who are trying to make RL money are the ones doing the whining. Here's some cheese for your whine. Bitching about the value of the $L will get you about as much as doing the same about the value of the USD will. Nothing. If you're feeling the pinch cuz of the declining value then do what businesses in RL do in similar situations and adjust your prices to compensate or find a more creative way to combat the problem. Taking money out of the hands of the consumers is almost never the answer.

Whatever you do stop bitchin about the stipends. They contribute little to the problem as a whole and claiming they're removal will have anything more than a marginal benefit is debatable at best.

LOL! I didn't notice that. btw, is there a way I can find this kind of data? I've poked around the SL website and can't find it.



I agree 100% and the biggest loser will be the people in that race. What do you think about a fixed L$250/$1 rate?



I think it is. Because the L$ doesn't have all of the support structure taht a real currency does, it needs to be manipulated. However, it also means that it won't be stable enough to withstand many mistakes. Which is why I think the heavy-handed change of eliminating the stipend would be bad where as the Atom-Bomb of fixing the exhange rate is a better one.

I collect the market data daily(sometimes i miss some days). And put them excel, and make graphics. I use some economy software to analyse them to make monthly and weekly predictions.

Fixed 250/usd rate would be good, and no queue, put all sell requests to 250/usd, and if there is a buy request, sell 1% from each sell request.If people want to sell quick for cheaper rates they can find other ways but not lindex.


Maybe you are right.

Example of fixed 250/ usd rate:

Assume that there are 15 sellers:
S1: L$1000000
S2: L$500000
S3: L$250000
S4: L$400000
S5: L$600000
S6: L$100000
S7: L$30000
S8: L$10000
S9: L$5000
S10: L$250000
S11: L$400000
S12: L$40000
S13: L$10000
S14: L$5000
S15: L$100000

STotal: L$3610000

Assume that there are 2 people who wants to buy:
B1: L$500000
B2: L$400000

BTotal: L$900000

Aprx: 0.25 share point(will be clear soon) for each seller.

Sell from
S1: L$1000000 X 0.25=250000
S2: L$500000 X 0.25 = 125000
S3: L$250000 X 0.25= 62500
S4: L$400000 X 0.25=100000
S5: L$600000 X 0.25=150000
S6: L$100000 X 0.25=25000
S7: L$30000 X 0.25=7500
S8: L$10000 X 0.25=2500
S9: L$5000 X 0.25=1250
S10: L$250000 X 0.25=62500
S11: L$400000 X 0.25=100000
S12: L$40000 X 0.25=10000
S13: L$10000 X 0.25=2500
S14: L$5000 X 0.25=1250
S15: L$100000 X 0.25=25000

Remaining market:
S1: L$750000
S2: L$375000
S3: L$187500
S4: L$300000
S5: L$450000
S6: L$75000
S7: L$22500
S8: L$7500
S9: L$3750
S10: L$187500
S11: L$300000
S12: L$30000
S13: L$7500
S14: L$3750
S15: L$75000

Next buyer, all seller will sell some more.
No race, No L$ value pain. Would be perfect in my opinnion.

Grab your children, stuff that mattress, and redeem those "'Till Hell Freezes Over" IOUs, there was a calm discussion that led to a mutual agreement in the Land and Economy forum!

I agree that treating a price point as a pool instead of a queue would be good but I don't agree with fixed pricing.

Ok, if I may ask, what's your reasoning? Because I don't believe it would ever get stronger than L$250/$1. And with sellers setting their own prices, there would constantly be pressure to undercut other sellers in order to sell faster.

I'm not quite sure what this fixation is with the L$250/$1 rate.... after all, L$300/$1 has been reached recently, the world didn't collapse... as the L$250 rate was chosen long before the game grew this big, perhaps it's time to review what the 'desired' rate is.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what the rate is, because the big players will just adjust their prices to whatever the rate is - the only people that gain are those who speculate on the market for a profit, and the only people that lose are the buyers who don't get so much play money for their real money.

Lewis

1. Poll Result

I would not have guessed the current outcome of this poll.

It puts in to stark contrast the difference between opinions held versus respective number of posts for and against.

I think it goes to show a minority of squeaky wheels can flavour the forum in a direction with pure number of posts.

2. Kazanture's fixed rate of exchange
IMHO it would definitely make SL's economy "FEEL" more stable but many things would need to be changed along with it to make it work, could be more open to exploitation, would be less flexible for LL and may in the long run lead to a very quick end to SL sometime in the future with a run on their bank.

3. Kazanture's percentage sale system
With a fixed rate of exchange model - I don't think your percentage sale system would work in practicality. It would end up a first in, first sold thing. So the the thing we would be screaming about would be big parcels or $L that block that timely sale for tier.

Basic stipends are very minimal, their current value is only 17 cents a week, that's nothing. Basic's only get their stipend if they log in. Basic account's need a little bit of free cash to get them into the game and the experience. There's tons of people out there who will simply not buy virtual currency at any price. One of the attractions some people find once they get into SL is shopping, but they wouldn't have that experience that if there wasn't a basic stipend. I signed up for SL in November, at the time there was still a refferal bonus. I used a friend's referal to sign up so he got L$1000. I wasn't expecting it, but he met up with me a day later and showed me around. I found a Lion avatar from Luskwood Creaturesthat I really liked, and he bought it for me.

Thanks to the refferal bounus I had a pleasant experience getting started in SL. Had I had to wait for my stipend IT WOULD HAVE TAKEN 16 WEEKS!!!! Really people, it would be very mean to remove the stipend. There's lots of people without the means to pay for L$ and many of them wouldn't stay in SL if they didn't have a little L$ to play with.

Being stuck with a newb avatar for 16 WEEKS would totally SUCK. Newbs on the net get no respect and SL is no different.

Philip has stated that once someone gets into SL they need to have their first awsome experience in 15 minutes or less to make sure they stay. Without a bit of L$ to assist in that it will be that much harder for them to have a good experience.

This is true. Any entitlements are essentially a tax on the entire population. They're not an overt tax, such as an object transfer tax or an upload tax. They're much more tucked away and hard to spot, taxation via devaluation.

I think all it shows is poll gaming. It is well known that socialists use many tactics to skew things in their favor, and that one of those things is many, many alts.

So do Premium pay to enter



SO does premium



THey paid for a service that included at the time of signing up: life time membership and 50L/week provided they log in for 1 hour per week.




They invest as well in money and hour. No different from you.



My point was that their stipends leave the economy in the form of upload costs and classified adds which permanently remove money from SL. From that standpoint they are paying for themselves and then some!




The rate is bad because people selling would rather sell fast. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with stipends.

Because while i think pool pricing will "reduce" the pressure to undercut queue pricing isn't the only cause of the pressure. There is more supply than demand right now. No amount of changes that don't modify that balance will result in eliminating the pressure to sell under. A fixed price just renders the lindex meaningless as sellers will go elsewhere to get lindens sold since they can't sell them in a timely fashion here.