Employment Opportunities

Nice ad hominem attack. Without the context of the original points, it's hardly prudent to continue that discussion in this thread.

No, because it's not paid in L$.

Look at it this way. When you pay tier in USD you are paying Linden a monthly fee for hosting, much as you would pay for website hosting. Which is why sim owners pay a flat monthly fee. Since other sims that are not privately owned have many people owning land LL has come up with a way of charging those hosting fees that distrubutes the hosting fee evenly according to the amount of land you own. Those who own less, pay less. Those who own more, pay more.

In Secondcast episode 10 Philip says something to the effect that he and someone else at LL whimsically joke that they could make more money in-game than they draw from LL as salaries. Perhaps he has some ideas.

Although given the platform stability over the last few weeks, some may doubt that it could be a decent venue for sustainable returns.

Incidentally, kudos on the production of Secondcast to Johnny Ming and crew; it is very nicely done.

If you follow the links, that is pretty darn funny

I'm sorry, but you convinced me that this was an accurate summary of your views. I would be delighted if you'd explain where I'm mistaken in whatever thread you like.

In this thread, though, this is relevant information. If you don't believe that creating content in SL has any value, then of course you're going to have a different view of the value of artificial jobs like mining for fish or crafting prims.

This is good because it actually provides something worthwhile to the world, not just sending people into a mine to be punished for not buying linden.

i totally agree

Okay, so tier has no game function. It is just a way for Linden to earn more money. Sorry, I was unaware of that and the reason is I've never owned any land.

Here is a burning question I left unanswered.

I'm positively none of the older players, but a main reason for me getting into SL was to play a Virtual World Simulator of sorts. A place where the players provided most of the content, with its own economy and exchange of capital (and by economy and capital I don't mean 'money' but production), which in turn created the social forces of society, extending all the way into politics.

Quite a lot like a multi-player online game in some ways, but much more open-ended and without being locked into a main theme like clubbing each other with axes all the time. All that fighting in games like WoW or EQ I find rather boring after about five minutes.

I wanted a civilian game about society where you created an alternative personality. A bit like The Sims but newer, better and deeper (and of course in polygon 3D).

What I had not expected was that people (especially the older, richer guys) viewed SL as a "development platform", and not a game at all. I actually thought people were going to build houses because they wanted to sleep in warm beds, not because they wanted to build virtual monuments over themselves without any purpose or connectedness to anything else in the world.

There is nothing wrong with that - I mean unbridled creativity - in itself of course, but what I personally wanted was a game, what I got was a chatroom, albeit one full of glorious eyecandy.

Right. I suppose we could hijack this thread as well.

Is there any other threads you'd like to engage a progressively denigrating circular debate in?

For relevancy, and to avoid redundancy, the topic of discussion referenced above can be found in the thread "Rarity, antiquity, and decreased supply."

There's no real distinction between a game that's a development platfrom and a development platform that's a game. Phillip Linden seems to be pushing the idea that there's games (all the other MMOGs) and development platforms (Second Life, Active Worlds). Really, there's development platforms that emphasise game aspects, and ones that don't. There's games that emphasise development, and ones that don't.

Something like Looking Glass is what I would think of as a pure "development platform", it's got not game aspects at all, really. Second Life's full of game functions and game-related concepts, and pushing the idea that it's "not a game" as if "being a game" was somehow a bad thing indicates a certain amount of confusion. Particularly since it's people who see it as a game that are, in the end, providing virtually all the money they're making.
It would be nice if you could leave your avatar in-world running a sleep animation when you're not there. That's something I miss from MUDs.

Well I see the problems with jobs in SL in a bit of a different light. Initally I think the question needs to be asked do SL residents typically WANT a job? It seems to me that if the expectations of the consumer are such that they want a modicum of income without working, and supplement this income by purchsing $L for major things, such as skins and land, pulling the plug on the stipend, or forcing people to get jobs might drive away residents.

LL's big problem right now is that SL does not have a defineable goal that is easily sold to the residents, or the market in general. It is busy trying to be all things to all people, and therefore is not doing a good job at any of them. Its too wide opento accomplish some specific goals.

If SL is entertainment, then the value of the linden must be secondary to the residents ability to entertain themselves. It must be expected that most players do not want to come and work, and do not want to get educated on the intricacies of making things.
Some residents may derive a reward from thier scripting/creating skills, but this should be see as a form of entertainment.

If SL is meant to be a neo 3-d internet replacement, then a conscious effort needs to be made at alllowinf residents to accomplish the same taskes in SL as the can in the net, and that means opening the platform up to commercial development by real world businesses, and it means doing away with features like web on a prim, in favor of the 3-d in world equivalents. It also means doing away with game like trappings such as the $L and restricited last names. If all commerce is conducted in $US, then we don't need to worry about the value of the Linden.

If SL is meant to be some sort of virtual economic simulation, where creaters of virtual products can make money, then it should be advertised as such. residents should be told that they are participating in an economic simulation, and that they will be required to get jobs, skilled or unskilled, and that they will be expected to master certain skill sets to attain a life above poverty level in SL. It should be noted that preservation of the value of a the linden is essential, and that the economy will be managed accordingly. Residents who wish to participate casually should be advised in advertising that they willbe expected to spend $4-50 USD every month to sustain a moderate lifestyle and participate in SL's paid entertainment experince.

Failing to meet the customers expectations, and failing to set forthe what SL is (beyond "your world. your imagination" will ultimately drive residents away. The learing curve is steep, and making money in SL involves learning at least one complex and expesive outside application, such as photo shop. Customers should know this.

Secondly LL needs to step up a resolve some issues with respect to administration. I know the offical line is that LL wants to innovate, not administrate. But the climate for business in SL is abysmal. No dispute resolution also means that there is no effetive enforcement of contracts. Also the track record on enforcing Copyright violatins is very poor. LL might consider increasing its legal staff to facilitate copyright enforcement, if it is serious about protecting resident business.

Finally I hav ebeen clamoring for an economic study to be done of SL since i joined. If one has been done, make the results public for residents. I would dearly love to see an analysis of the impact of stiped ons on the value of the money versus the impact of content creators cashing out the money. Right now I would venture to say most stipends are not cashed out into US$ but are reinvested back inot the economy. Sadly the massive $L accumulated by residents who are paying real-world bills with it, leave the economy every month. And contribute heavily to the flood of L$ on the market, which drive s the price down because causual users will not buy at the same rate the lindens are sold.

This could be specialtion on my part, but I really would like seeing this situation analyzed.

Definitely, it also needs the equivalent of Javascript - client-side scripting as well as server-side scripts that are all we have now. But this bit is true no matter whether it's a game or an economic simulation or an Internet-3d.
Agree on the names, but... I'm not sure about the Linden. The net has needed a viable micropayment currency for a long time, and the Linden Dollar could become one. The question is whether LL can make enough money just on land (server) rent, since they would have to eliminate both premium accounts and stipends to make this work... and just have basics that can buy tier.

I must have missed this...


The only reason I ever got a trial account in SL was to be able to attend a memorial service for a friend who passed away last year, whom I had known in AW. I had no intentions of staying, however, since the SO saw my screen and saw the graphics he wanted to check it out. Because of SL's vast improvement in some areas over AW, we ended up staying. Being able to build in-world and the ability to sell those builds in-world was just icing on the cake for us.

We like icing.

I didn't answer because I'm not sure I'm an oldbie, I know quite a lot of avies older than me, but by comparison to the questioner I am so...

Why I came here isn't relevant after 20+ months. If you stay I suspect you'll find the things that keep you here change over time.

Part of what I enjoy in SL is making things and the things I make (that I can) I sell not to make a fortune, but to cover my costs. SL is a more or less break-even prospect for me at the moment, and has been for several months. But one of the other things I very much enjoy (although others won't necessarily agree with this pretty obviously if you read their posts in this thread) is the LACK of structured rules, employment systems etc.

SL, for me, certainly now and from what I remember then too is about making my own choices, just like RL. It's about learning new skills (I can script in lsl, OK, not a huge new skill set since I could already script in Flash ActionScript) and through that I'm learning php and mySQL which is a pretty sellable RL skill. My skill with Photoshop has increased immensely. I'm a pretty competent 3D modeller now, never tried before. I've extended my repertoire as a teacher too, which is even better.

I'm not saying this is automatically an old v new thing - I'm aware that I enjoy learning new things IRL for their own sake AND that that's a moderately unusual mindset - but I would venture to suggest that, in my experience, there were few people that saw SL as a money making venture when I arrived, a *very* small minority. Now I'd say that at least half of the new people I meet want to know how to make money in SL, often with a view to making RL money too. Most of the people that actually do well at it might not be new of course, but there is an attitude towards that now that is becoming more and more prevalent. Maybe it's as simple as the advertising - push the idea that people can (and do) make RL livings in SL and you'll attract people that think they have a right to make a living from it, or at least make some RL spending money.

All of your post, how true.

I suggest In-world Technical support, i dont mean SL wise, but hardware/software wise.
Would be very much like a live-helper except under a salary and knowledge of computer systems, so people especially newbies can contact an IN-World Tech suppor Agent without having to write an email or make a phone call.

Jobs and corporate structures require a large amount of data sharing and storing, whether it be TPS Reports or Love Machine notes... Until HTML rendering is built into Second Life, the world is crippled in this regard.

I believe that, once the entire world wide web is added as a mere tool of Second Life, the question should be re-opened... If it even needs to be at that point.

Oh, and better control over permissions will help the job market too. You can't have supermarket baggers if they don't have permission to box (bag - "plywood or blank?" your groceries. (Horrible example, I know, but it points the way to better ones, I hope.)

Rofl Im sorry I am just trying to imagine Baron Grayson volunteering to teach the 'common people' his precious skills...not exactly a 'giver' but see where your going and think the cert is a fab idea.

Shame LL cant offer a similar thing or at least put their seal of quality on it...

Speaking as a RL and Sl educator excellent skills do not necessarily a good teacher make.

Without speaking ill of Baron Grayson I suspect he's a wonderful example of this - he does build and texture wonderfully most people would agree. I strongly suspect he doesn't have the temprament nor the desire to be a teacher.

There's a reason that in most countries teachers go through a training process in how to be a teacher, and despite that I'm sure we've all had experiences of better and worse teachers. If you can find excellent people in all fields who are also willing and able to teach (they are out there) then a class or series of classes with them might be just what you need.

There is a separate issue of certification starting to appear as well. A certificate saying "I've taken a texturing course with" ... Eloise, or Chosen - what's it's market value? At the moment zero. But assuming it takes on value (Chosen's far more than mine obviously) how do we cope when someone like the next Robin comes along? I can teach basic in world texturing and basic use of PS, the new Robin's far better than me at both almost certainly, or needs 10 minutes to see the tricks of the texture pane. The new Robin and Chosen probably have things they could and do teach each other, why should Robin enrol on Chosen course though, she can texture to a very high standard without. Suddenly we're opening the can of worms of having to do APL, or of people ignoring the certificates because they see someone uncertified doing the job that they want done to a high standard and they approach them directly.

To head back to the employment opportunities direction again: Offering training in SL skills is done, TeaZers, SLU, private teaching, mentoring, the various specific fora as well. But Y's certificate saying "I've taken X's clothing design course" - whoever X may be - is, frankly, worthless. What will make me buy Y's clothes is seeing them up for sale and thinking they're good and what I want. I don't care that they've whether they've taken a course - and to a greater or lesser extent the same is true of the other skills, I want to see that they can do it, personal recommendations and seeing their products count much more heavily.

You know that people would come in and put prim hats and moustaches etc on you, and take pictures, like they do when you go away for too long.

Or is that just the people I know?

It happens to me often too.

I have done pictures to embarass by freezing greifers on my land...they can still tp home anytime.