Employment Opportunities

In an economy, which SL is not, you wouldn't mine the resource. You would buy it from somebody who did and possibly someone for transporting the resource to where you want it. Obviously, it would not be on your land.

That's what real economies are about. Specialization. So that you can go around creating things all day and don't care about those vulgar blue collar consumers who lack your artistic sophistication.



And in the end you'd stand there with a futile and utterly pointless "creation", since no one would need it and couldn't use it for anything.

You wouldn't? What are all those big holes in the ground all about then?

And yet, somehow, in some mystical way, Siggy's stuff gets bought. A lot. And folks use that stuff and they have fun. And they want more. And they buy L$ and use them to buy more stuff from Siggy and others. And an economy manages to exist completely in spite of the insistance that it does not.

Thanks!

I'll go through those papers when I have the time, but honestly, after being in SL for a rough six months, I think I have a pretty good idea of what this game is about including that illusive, non-existing entity people call "the economy".

I realized you were being facetious after I posted that. ;-p

It is very well to consiously misinterpret a message in order to gain a rethorical point, but it is no less a useless exercise.

What were we talking about? The fact that people have no employment opportunities. Why is this so? I pointed out the obvious. No one needs anyone doing any work in SL, therefore, there are no jobs. That is also the reason why this economy will never organically differentiate or grow in any meaningful, physical way. More money will swirl about, surely, but that's just a result of more people signing in.

You can also see it like this (if it's not too socialist, fascist and keynesian for your taste): think how much Siggy would sell if Johnnie had an income?

Today, there are basically two jobs in SL: moneychair sitting and prostitution. Why is this so? Because while people cannot do anything that I mentioned above, they can make love. Jobs follow actual things people can do and needs they have and express in game. No needs = no jobs.

Until they institute some sort of needs functionality, we're stuck as beggars or prostitutes, and that's the truth whether all you creative artists care or not. And that's what you call an economy? After three years this game has been around?

I've got a low commitment way to make a few bucks on the side.

Second Realty is willing to give people a 'finder's fee' for any bargain land they bring to our attention and which we subsequently purchase. People who are interested can do as much or as little 'work' as they like.

here's a link which goes into detail http://www.second-realty.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=30&Itemid=44

I think I see what you mean in one aspect with manual labor. We don't have to cut wood to get a prim box or buy metal to make a metalic texture. They just appear. (well except the metal texture)

I personally don't see it as an entity by itself but rather as one part of something much larger. Most of the real labor is kept out of SL and in the real world. We work to pay for electric, internet, SL, etc.
So SL becomes the secondary platform for RL that allows us to exchange products of entertainment rather than necessity.

What necessity is itself all depends on the person looking at it. I could say necessity is being able to sell stuff in SL for cash in real life. It pays the bills. It's a partial job for real life.

Basically the economy in SL is real to me because it merges right in with cash. And cash is real to most people because that is a necessity to them. So in both world(s) SL and RL it has value to us and that makes an economy.

I wouldn't mind seeing an easy way for some to make a bit of cash for simple tasks either.
I also don't think limiting one thing just to bring that type of 'economy' into effect is going to help.

As a developer I could see paying 10 people to build me prims to use. Or pay LL for those prims. It would be no difference to me which way it went because I get those prims in the end. But if that was how things had to work then I would rather pay the 10 people so they have something to do.

Obviosly that isn't how it works here because SL is a development platform for real life entertainment and not locked into a fake world where gold is only valued in the game.

I can't see it as anything but a real economy because it ties right to RL cash in that way.

If SL becomes a place for any common folks to do manual labor and 'work' to earn cash then that would probably start a big gold rush to the platform. I don't know if LL could handle that or not but even if they could. I could see the job market becoming flooded. And over supply of prims maybe? I dunno but that is interseting lol.

I don't think LL would ever do that with SL but I wonder if that could work with another platform. Heh That's probably a next generation thing. Having this kind of platform allow rl jobs other than those for developers.

If:

a) It was not something that a script could be written to automate the task, meaning actual input and non afk play was required; and

b) It happened on Linden owned land so individuals couldn't benefit from it - as that would provide essentially an alternative to the curse known as camping chairs.

then I would have no problem supporting, and partaking of, such boring repetitive work, to obtain what I want in game. The only people who would complain are lazy people, and people whose popularity is based on buying it.

Lewis

Just another thought for the heck of playing around with the idea and to get back on the threads topic for a sec:

If we didn't have the ability to copy prims, and had to actually build another one just like it for a 'copy', then that would create a lot of jobs right there. A factory line. And specilized areas too.
I suppose insurance on lost objects would start up.

If I needed 100 copies of a ship that had 30 parts to it. Thats 3000 prims I need people to make for me. (Assuming prims are free to build in this senario.)
Then I need all those ships put together. I sure as hell don't want to do that myself! I already built the prototype. (Blueprints if you will.)

So the job market would naturaly support specialty fields in that way I suppose. People who are fast at making prims could get payed whatever the going rate is for that kind of work.
Then the actual builders could be payed to align the parts into position. The scripters setup the scripts, Texturing people.. well you get the idea, etc.

That would be a lot of money.
And the products would have to cost a lot more just to cover the cost of production.
L$ would be closer to the real USD mark if that was in play.
It would always have a demand though so that is interesting.

But then, someone designs a robot to take the place of the workers. And he makes millions on it from all the developers that buy his product. Saving them in the long run and not having to pay people for labor.
Wait.. thats what LL does. Only they are generous and let us use the factory free.

Well, I think we're just coming down to wording here. Yes, Crystalshard did say "if that doesn't appeal, there's Lindex" - but only immediately after a bunch of stuff about how easy it was to start a business if you put in a little effort. The overall implication seemed - to me - to be that the only reason "that" wouldn't appeal would be that the person was lazy. But, I might just have gotten paranoid



Well, yes. But on the occasions when I've tried to "live out that little fantasy", I've found that I'm blocked at every turn by the fact that - if I don't create - then I can only choose from what's provided, and if that doesn't happen to match what I want, there's nothing I can do. And it's been my experience that people in general would far rather be involved in role-plays that make more use of the graphical aspect of SL - and that's directly tied to being able to create. You can get it by spending money, but then you just have to take what you're given, and creative role-playing is impossible when you know you're tied down to only what you're got in your inventory. You can use just text, of course - but then everyone leaves for the other group that's got graphics.

Now I hope that this is changing. For example, the other day I got added to my Multi Gadget, a "build your own space station" kit - I think that's a fantastic idea. I hope it goes further, as it has the potential to get rid of the situation I don't like now - where either you build (for example) your house from scratch from raw prims, or live in a prefab house that's designed by someone else and is the same as everyone else with that prefab. If it becomes possible to assemble your own house out of tabbed components, in the same way as that space station, that will go a long way to dealing with the difference (and hopefully be a popular product). I know there are house building kits at the moment, but none that actually eliminate entirely the need to use the SL tools, which is what the station does. I equally wish that LL would let us do customer adjustment sliders for AV attachments, so that AV designers could offer easier-but-more-restricted adjustment options instead of the all-or-nothing deal it is now.

For what it's worth, in-world I do try and counter the "bogus notion". As I've mentioned, I've seen several new folks say to me some equivalent of "I'm sure that some day I will be sucessful and own a lot of land to do whatever I want with". To which I reply, "um, you don't have to be successful first - you can have that tomorrow, it'll just cost you a few US$". But it doesn't go down well. People like to earn. It gives them a way to "level up", and it increases their confidence in their own abilities (which can be important if they're planning to build - if you're going to shell out money for rental or bought land or island or anything, you want to have at least some confidence you'll be able to do something that's at least pleasing to yourself with it).

*gob-smacked*

Sean Martin and Lewis Nerd, that is precisely what I mean. And here's the guy who said it first:



On the most basic level, I also think it ought to be practical to implement such a system into SL even without any major redesign. Prims come in certain 'materials' right? If you tie the prim to a certain material, even though you design the texture yourself, that would be the "prim" you'd need to buy in order to make copies of a certain design. The hard bit here would be to avoid exploits (i.e, making stone walls out of silk, just because it happens to be three times as cheap).

The 'basic' prims could be 'extracted' by people, using certain resources in the landscape or installations, either owned by Linden or a player (not really sure which or what sectors should be owned by whom if a combination of property types would de decided upon).
For example, if you need textiles, this could 'grow' in a cotton field, which the owner or hired hands would be able to harvest from time to time. The 'extraction' process could be somewhat time-consuming, discouraging designers to invest time into doing it themselves (time = equals manhours = equals capital), yet providing the hordes of us unskilled players a form of labour that would feel real, earn us cash and create a sense of confidence and purpose.

Could someone tell me more about this game? Does it still exist? Is it a Virtual World? Tried to google for it, but it was like searching for a needle in haystack.

You probably should be .... but which part of my post is causing you particular difficulties in understanding?

Lewis

yes while the fact remains employment and income are used to sustain the economy it also tends to stand still for those that live a certain way and dont work still get paid quite often unless they are homeless. The stipend was something we got by signing up and its alot of people's main source of income in SL. A big problem is you cant make all work just "fun and easy and low skilled" as this just creates a slew of people taking this alternative when they are new vs actually learning a skill. Plus what of those that dont want to work in SL but rather use their stipend to enjoy themselves is it right to force people to work in game just to make money? That was a big draw to come to SL for me. The freedom to choose to work or not but still be able to get by. There is no real correct way of managing jobs in SL without making it to much like the Sims online (which is a horrid game in my mind). And there are a ton of jobs out there people just really do not bother to look these days and are sooner to complain about it rather then trying to help themselves. There are just to many changes to the game world any sort of job system makes without the users creating them. Henceforce as well stipends are still needed in taht case regardless because if people still need to be paid by someone they have something to fall back on. A question for everyone out there!! WHY DID YOU GET INVOLVED WITH SECOND LIFE IN THE FIRST PLACE? Especially going towards alot of the older players with this one. Did You come here for the promise to make a ton of money or to have fun regardless if you worked or not? Sure its great that people can work in game if they choose to buy taking away the choice as a means of not being able to really buy items without a job just in any context seems unfair. You alienate a huge percentage of SL's population in doing so. I say sure mabye make some new jobs *loooks at content developers* but leave it up to people to decide if they are going to work or not. DO NOT TAKE AWAY OUR FREEDOMS JUST TO HIKE UP THE VALUE OF LINDEN!! PLEASE!!!

But the fact is you can buy drinks you can buy food you can rest or live somewhere you can move around and there is inherent comfort or a fun factor if you so choose there to be. And you do refine resource (prims to produce objects textures scripts) and then you use these. You compare SL to the real world and thats where your logic on the situation is flawed there isnt a 100% real world economy but there is a very solid 50% virtual/50% realisitic economy in SL. To just debunk the economy because its virtual is Moot to a point of absurd laughter in my head. You make the choices here to do the things stated where as its more forced in the real world. Economics has to do with supply/demand and usage not eating drinking and resting etc. Thats a social structure not economics!

People keep stating employment oppurtunities etc. There is alot more to it the beggers or prostitutes. People dont look. I for one am actually doing something to try and help newer players or players with less experience get into stuff... I offer one on one lessons to learn how to bring tattoos into SL as well as basic clothing in a 1 time fee package that any new player can afford . I for one couldnt do this without the stipend as it was something i worked to make up so anyone could do it with a ton of experience or a little. I've had people go off to make clothing lines etc and i charge only 250L and provide any future support for questions these people might have. I also co own an upcoming dance club where as we do employ escorts and dancers we also try alot more to help new players get a foot hole in SL. While you guys sit in forums talking about doing stuff to help with jobs there are people out there trying to create more or make mroe oppurtunities or training people to do things in world that can make them money. Its the fact People need to open up their eye ( O.O ) and actually look before complaining!!!

SecondLife DID have 'minable resources'. They weren't pulled from the ground... but extracted from people. Ratings. Now without the ratings bonus or scores board they're only an very vague indicator of how socially active someone is when you look at them.

Back when there was a "score", people who struggle more with SecondLife's open ended non-goal nature would latch on to some ladder and climb. To make a token appearance as one of the wealthiest, most popular, most attractive, best building, largest land-owner, top referrer or whatever was cause for a moment of glorious pride and accomplishment.

It was fun, despite the rather arbitrary and gamable aspects of the system, particularly when L$ started getting bought with outside money.

I recall the building rating was rather significant to me back then... and jockeying for position with other players whose works I admired was a great feeling.

Now? Without the high scores board, "money" is the default measure of success.

Despite the many problems with the high scores boards... I liked SecondLife more with them.

The idea of mining or harvesting prims for building, or going down to the local SL hardware store to buy a crate or ready-to-build prims would be on par with doing away with p2p. Wildly unpopular to most... and an exciting opportunity for a few.

There is one menial job that I would actually pay someone to do for me in SecondLife... if there were some way to guarantee no theft or deletion of items: Inventory Organization.

Of course, I'd much rather see better inventory management tools GOM the "inventory secretary pool" out of their jobs.

--
Where's my coffee.... Objects -> Incoming -> Random attachments -> beverages -> hotstuff -> mug o stuff ? Hmm... what was it called again?

If you build all your own stuff and don't sell it or own land, you're not in the economic game.
Economics is a subset of socialising.

On the contrary, the "fun factor" is the source and driver of the economy.

I know that Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash is credited as the basis for Second Life, but really another of his books, The Diamond Age, describes Second Life a lot better.

And in there he makes the point that there's really two economies. The economy of things, and the economy of entertainment. And the richer an economy gets, the less important the economy of things is and the more important the economy of entertainment becomes. The nanotech economy of The Diamond Age takes this to an extreme, but pretty much anywhere in the world that's not actually in a state of collapse the economy of entertainment is the bigger part... it really doesn't take many things to meet one's basic needs even in First Life.

What's the purpose of being in an MMO if your goal is to be a hermit? There are better stuff out there for the purposes you mentioned.

While economics is a social science, economics and socializing have very distinct differences.

Professor Julius Sumner Miller you ain't.

About the only unskilled job* in SL is moneyball sitting.

Anything else that anyone pays you for, whether that's making stuff on contract, teaching, selling stuff you've made or uploaded, prostitution, or anything else... that's a skilled job. The fact that someone's wiling to pay you money for it is what makes it a job, and the fact that they can't do it themselves and you can is what makes it a skilled job.

* In raw economic terms, in the same sense that burglary, carjacking, and spamming are jobs.

Please re-read what I wrote, bearing in mind that the two comments you quoted refer to separate parts of the message I was commenting on.

The idea of wealth redistribution always scares the people with all the wealth. It would be interesting to see what the L$ net worth of the individuals that are staunchly against any such innovation is.