What about the poor people with no talent?

Persephone, I don't think anyone could argue that providing a quality event isn't worth paying for. I believe that event coordinators are absolutely a vital part of SL -- more important than those who build the spaces where the events are held. Why? Because Second Life has to be entertaining to it's populace, and events are at the core of that.

Sometimes, you'll hear people speaking negatively about events, but usually they mean the meaningless events that spam the calendar, and not the worthwhile events. I think people who are creative with any kind of content creation, be it building or event creation -- deserve to be supported by the community at large.

The question here is how should content creators be supported? I think that the reversal of of the LL incentives may be difficult for many people to understand if they had never logged onto SL before the incentives existed. Back then, many SLers hosted events just for the fun of it. Then LL added incentives to increase the number of events. With so many events daily, LL decided that the incentive is no longer needed -- there will be plenty of events in a day without it.

So... how does an event planner get compensated? I think it's not unreasonable for everyone to start paying admission. The tools are built right into SL for charging admission to a land parcel -- let's use them. If an event is good enough I and many others would be more than happy to pay for a ticket.

In the short term, yes... it is a hard thing to adjust to. But *good* event planners shouldn't worry, because if your event is worth attending, people will buy a ticket.

As to Second Life becoming a second job... well, if you're not enjoying what you do... don't do it. Plenty of others enjoy content creation just fine, and don't consider it a job at all, but a pleasure. It's entertainment. There's no reason why anyone has to do anything in SL that they don't want to do, and many opportunities to earn L$ doing something fun. It's just a matter of finding what you like and doing it. After all... if you do nothing but hang out and have fun, you still get money every week.

First off, I would like to thank Persephone for trying to pound out a message that I feel deep to my bones. My day job is a systems admin. My night job is to teach web design at a community college. After spending all day and evening using my RL skills, the absolute last thing I want to do is come to SL and do the same thing again! (besides which, I'm left with very little time to be creative in SL) My SL job, is (soon to be was) an event host. AND YES I'VE HOSTED SEXY AV CONTESTS!!! AND PEOPLE HAVE HAD A BLAST AT THESE EVENTS!!!
What do you think motivates people to buy these wonderful scripted objects, and beautiful clothes, and gape and gawk at creative architecture? Well, they do it to see and be seen...for socializing!!! No socializing doesn't cost money...You could stand there in your naked avatar, and yammer away at any myriad of other naked avatars. How much excitement and fun would that be? None! And what is the chief purpose of an event? To get people to come out of their 512 plot and see what other people are wearing, and driving, and flying, and to come to wonderfully built clubs!! To me, SL is not about selling, or building. To me, SL is about socializing. If someone wanted to just build things, they certainly don't need to be on the net to do it, or to pay tier fees to Linden Labs to do it, and especially to put up with vandals destroying or otherwise mucking with their creations, to do this. But it's certainly more fun that way!! (excepting the latter of course) What good is a replica of 1920's England if nobody comes to enjoy it? What good is a brand new *sparkling* piece of jewelry if nobody admires it? What fun is customizing an avatar to your wildest imagination, if nobody compliments it? And how do people generally congregate and exchange ideas and admire the goods available to everyone in Second Life? Events!
I actually promote creators indirectly with my events because I always try to think of something that gets people to go out and find something. Usually, yes, it's a costume. But 99% of the attendees at my events don't make their own costumes. I've hosted everything from formal balls to lingerie parties, to oriental costumes. I've very badly wanted to throw a toga party, but I couldn't find anyone that had any togas. As miserable as my artistic skills are, I'm certainly not going to make one myself. The point is, the people that come to these contests buy their stuff from those who create it. Doesn't that put any points in my column for encouraging people to not horde their money and support those that actually create in SL? And I'm also showing them a good time!

And now a few rebuttals...


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Someone who absolutely hates poetry may find a sexy av contest to be the greatest thing in SL! Who are any of us to thumb our noses at what others choose to spend their time doing? I myself find it pointless to go play cowboys and indians in SL...If I want to go shoot something, there are plenty of other online games that I play to do so...but I don't hold it against anyone that does like to play shoot em up in SL!



If there were so many events before subsidies were provided, why did LL start subsidising events? What do you think will happen to the number of events once the subsidies stop?



I agree, but I would also like to say that regardless of how good your events are, you will no longer have near the amount of attendance you used to before cover charges were enforced. This affects dwell, which affects the club's income, which deteriorates the quality of the events. This, in turn, makes people less willing to pay for the cover charge, and you start the fatal downward spiral.

You can't just judge an event by what the contest is. There is a lot more that goes into an event! The Live DJ's that are exclusive to a club are a big draw. The prizes and "money balls" are a big draw. The "spunk and sparkle" of the crowd that comes to your club is a big draw. With the revocation of subsidized events, 2 of the 3 former items will likely decay and disappear. Without that, the 3rd of the 3 will also disappear.




Finally, Event Hosting was something I enjoyed. It doesn't require a lot of back-end work in drawing and masking in a graphics program. It doesn't require hour upon hour of creating and connecting prims to construct wonderful creations. It doesn't tax me with further code debugging, which I've just done for 8 hours. It is a way for me to come to SL, make a little money (not much but enough) and unwind and relax. I'm probably not the best event host out there, but people have a really good time at my events. My events aren't for everyone. Not everyone likes the themes I host, or the music I play. But I enjoy it, and enough other people do such that I was an asset to the club. Sure I could mentor or teach, but damn, I've just come home from giving a 2 and a half hour lecture and have papers to grade! I don't want to teach anymore! Now that my events are no longer subsidized, I won't have the resources to host the fun events that people have come to enjoy. SL is now looking to be (for me, anyway) a place that requires you to either spend lots of time working so that you can have fun, or spend more time doing what I've been doing all day long. What a bummer!

^_^ Very Well Said! I still feel there should be support and prize to events but it can be scadle so that the classes and/or pg events get paid more then that of social and/or mature events. o.o 2 cents if that is 2 cents dont show me a dolla! Do you want change with that? hehe ^_^

I've been reading this thread and I've wanted to reply but I hesitated. I think I see SL in a different light then some of you.

First some background information. I've been wanting a 3d virtual world since I read some science fiction story as a child about being "jacked into the net". I couldn't get into those Everquest games because I was looking for a different kind of interaction, I'm going to call it realism, you know the house building, character like myself.

I loved the Sims, especially the creative side and was so excited about TSO, only to find it a limited version of the Sims. Yes, you can make money there, by clicking over and over again. But this favored people with lots and lots of free time and penalized people who had RL jobs and/or obligations because we couldn't keep a house open or spend excessive amounts of time in front of the computer. The main currency in TSO was time. And there was no custom content, no way to expand and everyone made cookie cutter lots. I stayed there for 2 painful years.

Then I found Second Life. It was freeing. I could create and enjoy other people's creations. But now I had an option. I could select my own level of enjoyment by what I wanted to invest. I could invest my time and create things or hang out at places and receive my enjoyment. Or I could pay RL $ and use it to buy what I want and also to create things. Since my time is limited, I chose the latter. I budget $22 or so every week to purchase $L5K. To me, this is reasonable. I enjoy rewarding unique creators for their hard work. Yes I pay a subscription, but for me this is the fee that gets me "in the park and on the rides". If I want souveniers or cotton candy or something to eat, I have to pay extra.

As someone else pointed out, you can ride for free and if that's your level of investment, make the most of it. SL is geared towards creativity and creativity takes time and effort and people need to be rewarded for their time and effort.

I pay shareware fees, because I don't see how people writing nifty programs would go on writing nifty programs if they don't have a monetary incentive. I used to use Pay Sites when I downloaded add on for the Sims games. I could never understand the attitude of people who would say they wanted something special and good but didn't want to download from a pay site. Why would anyone make anything good and not want to be compensated for it?

This last part isn't meant to be cruel but I don't know any other way to put it. If someone isn't creative and doesn't have any other means to invest in SL, maybe another game might be more rewarding for that person.

I know the economic changes seem radical and maybe even harsh, but in the long run it will check rampant inflation and make ratings mean something. As someone pointed out in another thread, how were dancers rated better builders than actual builders?

Hmm Persephone, after reading your post and Cubey's reply, I think that there might be a slight misunderstanding. When I wrote "only sexy avatar contests will be affected" I really meant "only low-quality events will be affected". Like both you and Herald pointed out, good event hosters will survive - meaning, they surely will have someone to pay for their work. As a matter of fact, I tend to think that the good event hosters will now be in more demand (and get better payment), exactly because you can't expect people to appear at your club/mall/casino/whatever with a bad event hoster, now that "just giving L$ away to attract people" is going to be harder without LL support.

I think that the changes will affect more the following two types of event hosters:

1) First, the ones that aren't really "event hosters" - they just posted something at the Events list to get the L$ support. No effort at all in either planning the event or making it interesting. Who cared? At the end of the day, if it's a contest and I could win some L$ by attending, it didn't really matter if the event was boring or not. I will certainly agree that this group will probably disappear very quickly from the Events list...
2) The group of event hosters like Herald. Now this group worries me much more. From the description of Herald, I can understand that he logs in to SL to have some fun. He could host educational events or any other type of events which require a lot of time to prepare. But he doesn't want to - he wants to relax, to have fun, not stress. The previous model enabled him to do that, get paid, and enjoy the extra SL income. The current model is so much more demanding that people like Harald will simply forget about SL, because it's not so FUN any more.

It's hard work. But, like April put it so well, hard work will pay off in Second Life.

The reason I'm still pretty much undecided about the current changes is because I don't know what will happen in the next few weeks. I'll have to look at my friends who are staying in SL, and the ones that will go away, because the fun is over - now just the hard work remains. And for so many people, SL is not about hard work, but about fun, relaxing, socializing - thus, if the concept of SL changes, they'll go away.

Unfortunately, the people I have in my collection of cards are mostly of the hard working type, I'm not sure if I'll be able to get an unbiased opinion...

Actually, I remember what my decision was when I understood, after a few days of having joined SL, what was expected of me to continue "enjoying" SL. Building stuff was incredibly hard - I only managed to join my first prims in a single object after 3 days of unsuccessfully clicking on them in all possible ways! (looking into retrospective, I can't possible imagine how stupid I could have been at that time... ah well... we were all newbies once!). I needed one month to understand how the camera moves. So this "game" had challenges beyond my wildest dreams; I had never encountered a "game" which was so hard to master! I expect "games" to be something I install and, after 4 or 5 hours of tweaking, I'd manage the interface well enough to actually enjoy it.

Why did I stick with SL? Well, it was when I stopped thinking of it as a "game" That was the trick. I understood it's a "place", not a "game", and to fully accept that, I had to work by the rules of SL. The great thing was, I didn't need to develop "game skills" - like being able to point & shoot monsters with uncanny quickness. Or even that lag and a slow computer weren't a factor in "learning" how SL works. Or, better than that... you can be in SL for 2 years, but an utter newbie can "rise to the top" in a matter of weeks if he understands quickly enough how the whole society in SL works - while a 2-year-old veteran may still struggle to become "known".

All of these things made me realize that SL is an unique experience for each of us. But some things are "universal". The ones able to adapt to changes quickly are the ones who will "survive". The ones able to employ their RL skills better will succeed faster. The ones depending on their own RL skills - and not on artificial "rules", like stipends, subsidies or ratings, ie. "gaming the game" - will always enjoy themselves. Even worse is the group of people depending on a certain "bug" of SL to have your enjoyment - when the "bug" is fixed, you've lost your place in SL.

Of course, many of us will say "I DON'T want my Second Life to be like my First Life!!!" and that's the reason for joining SL in the first place. But nothing forbids any of you to run your second life like you prefer. However, when making that choice, it also means that you'll lead a "poorer" second life. If you're prepared to accept that, it's ok. If you want to be rich in SL (or at least having access to enough L$ to buy that oh-so-important-to-have-item), it means - going with the "rules", not fighting them. And the rule is, as always, the Golden Rule - The one with the gold, makes the rule.

Persephone, I don't understand the argument that "builders in SL are subsidized, because LL pays for classes where you can learn how to build". Mastering the necessary tools for building is one thing; doing creative stuff with the building tools, which you can sell for a profit, needs an aesthetic sense, imagination, and a feel of the market. You can't "learn" those skills in-world; you either have them, or you don't. As an example, I know exactly how to align a cube with a cone, and can do it as fast as any other top builder in the world. However, I won't ever make an item worth selling, because I lack the aesthetical sense in turning a cube and a cone into a fashionable, creative piece of furniture. I can have the best masters in the world teaching me, and I still will have just glued two prims together. Whereas an utter newbie with lots of RL skill in design will grasp the interface intuitively, stick the two prims correctly "just so", and sell it as a tabletop lamp for L$ 50. Or L$ 500, if she's really good!

And, in any case, there are lots of classes to "teach" people how to host events (and these are subsidized by LL). But there is only a handful of successful event hosters. Again, being good at following all the rules of event hosting doesn't turn you into a successful event hoster! You need RL skills for that. If it were so easy, we would all be entertainers and work for the channel networks

So, if you're really a good event hoster, you have nothing to worry about. You have a set of skills which are really hard to find, and you'll be able to "hire" those to third parties...

Gwyn has written one of the best essays I've ever seen written on SL.

The question is whether you can have a world and a society where only artisans and scientists reign supreme. And the answer has to be "no" because if you only have them in that society -- because only they will have the RL-skills and RL-talents to master the intricacies of the SL mechanisms -- then they will be a small village, a wiki, an experiment under the glass of a biosphere. It's mildly interesting to have a utopian society made up only of artisans and scientists but after awhile, it gets dull.

The problem is they need customers -- as much abhorrence as there is over the market and "commercialism," the market is what drives innovation and provides a medium for democratic feedback about the content creation of those artists and scientists. They might go on endlessly celebrating each other in their biosphere of 5,000 people, but if they have tens of thousands of others looking at their creations, perhaps without the high refined aesthetic or technological motives that the artisans and scientists have, they will be forced to be more practical and to consider a larger community than their biosphere.

Everything Gwyn says would be fine -- let the harsh realities of content creation drive out the untalented and the untechnological -- except that's how you keep a game with only 5000 people in it. It's just a lab. Who will go on paying for it? Many of those artists and tekkies in fact put so much hard work into their content creation that they want to go on being subsidized by the state. They would expect all prim materials to go on being free, for textures to be only $10, for inventory saves to have endless capacity, for land to remain cheap, etc. etc. But such a subsidized world can't last, as all experiments in the world in socialism have shown.

So how could SL open up behind the select few who have talents and skills, taken from RL, to succeed in the harsh terrain of SL?

First, there would have to be a recognition that many people have untapped skills and talents. By day, they might be dull office administrators. By night, they might be architects. They never knew they had such talents in RL because they never had the scope -- and now they do. So there will be some people who excel in SL not because they have RL talents but because SL is a world where their untapped, unconscious talents got a chance to bloom.

Second, there would have to be recognition that not everything that the original scientists and artists believe to be "high quality" or "esthetic" is really so "all that". Not everybody can use a gyrating, glowing, scripted thingie as clever as it might be in terms of scripting and animation. So a "new class" of more practical manufacturers emerges who make more commercialized items like rental machines, vendors, gaming tables, portable penises. These people are just as talented and innovated, but because their products are more practical, they maybe scorned as not "aesthetic" even though their products probably sell more than some of the high art and high technology.

Third, there has to be recognition that not just activities valued in Geek World in RL are going to be valued in SL. For example, most high-tech tekkies and high-art arties from RL think of themselves as "above" what they view as "sleazy real estate dealers" or "escort services". And yet real estate dealers and escort services require hard work and talent and skills as much as high tech and high art -- it's just a different order of endeavor. So there will be classes of people who emerge highly skilled in the things that RL tekkies don't really "appreciate" but who definitely have a place in SL -- their RL activities are valued by other types of people in RL society besides geeks.

Fourth, there would have to be recognition by all of these groups that there are yet more skills and talents -- never recognized as such in RL or traditional geek SL. These would include promotional activities like finding renters for space, or organizing good events. The administrative work that goes into organizing events is phenomenal sometimes, and the organizational capacity for hosting an event and watching all the factors that go into a successful event involve talent. This is somewhat recognized in SL society but since most tekkies prefer to build in the sandbox and shun "low-life" events, the qualities of a good event host or hostess may be lost on them.

Fifth, there would have to be recognition that there are many other categories still in the making, that help make this society more complex and make the economy more rich and dense, but which are as yet unrecognized. In fact, this "all other" forms the undifferentiated "masses" now who go to clubs, buy skins, and sit in events. These are the numerous people who just bought an account or perhaps spend $20 a month buying extra money and either "just want to have fund" or just like the many avenues of exploration that SL offers. These are the customers of the scientists and the artisans, and they cannot scorn them.

This last group is the growing end of SL, the engine that will make it go from 5000 to a million. Of course, many tekkies and artists will come aboard as the million gets made up, but as in RL, they will always be in the minority. SL should have the horizons boundless enough to help those bank clerks realize their dream of becoming great architects, and have the capacity to recognize activities which are necessary in a virtual world and require hard work and skill like real estate and event planning. Currently, one often encounters a class hatred between the different groups because there isn't enough differentiation in the society and not enough types of groups to form buffers, i.e. only big land barons but not little land barons, etc.

What's required is vision and tolerance from the first group of scientists and tekkies and their willingness to realize many other kinds of groups are required in society besides them. In Gwyn's vision, essentially only those with RL skills that they can somehow transfer to SL by hook or by crook, and only endless hours of pickey work are going to "work" in SL -- these are hard and fast rules revolving around the Golden Rule of "he who has the gold rules".

But I continue to believe that many people coming into SL will find untapped skills, that the virtual environment itself will generate a need for skills nobody ever thought were required from RL analogies (like making vehicles that can cross sims or making buildings with plenty of fly-in space and landings). There will be an imperative of the SL world itself that will create many new opportunities. It's also helpful to keep in mind that most social possibilities of SL are untapped. Except for the Thinkers Group, nobody really tries to have discussions about RL or SL issues, much less practical applications. Nobody has tried to make a model UN, etc. There could be a million possibilities we don't even see.

A world that only lets me in the door if I can master PSP is not a world I care to remain in. But the fact that I'm not leaving SL is my assessment that this is a world with more possibilty. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

I'm sorry, I tried not to post this thought, but this thread is on page five, and I really feel this is obvious.

Just like in real life, if you have no skills, no talent, and nothing to offer, you are probably going to starve. But even then, there is still hope. You can always throw a few bucks at gom and buy money with your real life funds... because hopefully you are better off in real life than you are in SL.

And in any case, it's not like anyone is being cut out completely.

Also, while I can appreciate that some people have really just latched on to the 'just a game' thing... it's been said over and over again that 'just a game' is not the direction second life is headed. It is not part of the vision... it is not part of the plan... and it is not going to change because some people don't feel like making anything.

I do want to throw in a though on the event support. I do feel like events are content. However, I don't get subsidies for the things that I build (and don't really think I should). I don't see why event holders should get a handout either. The simple fact is, if your events are worthwhile, then they are worth money too. If you would just start charging admission, everything would work out (probably better than before too.) I don't really know what event holders were making previously, but if your event draws 40 people, and you charge 5 bucks to get in, there's your 200 right there. If your events aren't attracting that sort of crowd, maybe the quality of the events needs to be considered and improved.

And what are people spending money on that they can't afford five bucks? Even the poor people!

Thanks perhaps to Prokofy and Mike, we're turning this thread into something much more interesting than "discussing poor people without talent".

A slight clarification, Prokofy... I did not mean that "only artists and techies have the necessary RL skills to make a profit from SL". Actually, my "vision" (lol) is much more in line with your own thoughts - every one of us has a certain set of skills that can be employed in SL. I fully agree that we don't have an "artists' utopia" and it would be boring to think of SL as that. The fun part of it is that you can make a living from completely weird things - like being a shop attendant, a teacher, or a jokester/entertainer.

I also agree that "an artist's world" needs precisely what you described so well, Prokofy: a consumer market. And consumers will be non-artists. Then again, artists also are consumers of other services - like real estate, or marketing services. As on our "normal society" - which is not "ruled" by artists and scientists - the same is start to happen in SL. We complexify We specialize in segments of SL and become experts in it. Thus, we become service providers and service/goods consumers. But service/goods is not just event hosting or building nice furniture or scripting cool gadgets. Again, I fully agree with your own suggestions, Prokofy - service is basically anything you can provide in SL for a price. And that certainly includes "simple things" like having the skill of getting people together.

The "old veterans" tell us of a time where everybody in SL did basically everything. So, everybody was builder, texturizer, scripter and clothes designer. If you saw a cool object, you didn't buy it - it was much more fun to replicate it. You'll see many oldtimers, both in-world and in the forums, still telling everybody that "this is the right approach". But, as Prokofy correctly predicted it, this does mean mantaining a small community - the SL Beta just had around 150+ regular players. You can't "grow" a community which is based upon self-sustaining individuals and expect a stable and healthy economy to develop. Relationships have to form based upon specialization - experts providing high-quality products/services in niche segments, and the rest of the community becoming willing consumers of those products/services. This mimics RL so well that it's uncanny. If I go to a rocker's club, people there will laugh at me if I present myself with an untextured T-shirt done in 30 seconds with the Appearances interface. They expect me to dress accordingly - and if I'm no clothes designer, I'll have to buy the appropriate clothes. If not, I'm seen either as somebody who "doesn't care" (ie. I really don't want to "fit in" and am regarded as an "outcast" or is "too poor" to buy "proper clothing". While all this is silly if you think about SL being a game, it makes much more sense if you remember that SL is "just another place". We humans are wired to think that way!

Would you buy a L$ 3000 Porsche from William Beckett if he had a robot avatar made of two shiny cubes? I think not. William Beckett has his image to consider. It's his image that enables him to sell L$ 3000 Porsches - besides his scripting and vehicle building, of course.

What all of this means is that SL is gradually coming to a turning point where you either accept it as "just another place" with its own rules and criteria - but so unsusprisingly similar to RL! - or you "play a game" and become a hermit and an outcast. This can also mean that SL has reached another crisis, another turning point, and LL has to watch for it carefully. This could mean that several hundred players may leave the "game" - because they don't think it's a game any more, and thus, no more fun to "play"! The question that remains is if the remaining residents will be enough to continue making SL attractive, both as an "entertainment platform" for the residents and as a profitable enterprise for LL. I think it will.

I also fully believe in "discovering untapped skills". Oh yes! That's the great thing about SL! You can completely forget what you are in RL, discover your latent skills in doing X well, and concentrate on doing X in SL - as both an escape from "reality" and as something that makes you go "hey, I never thought I could do X before!".

Back to events - yes, subsidizing low-quality stuff is a Bad Thing. The more I think and read about it, the more I agree with LL, despite my initial shock and my first reactions against it. Yes, I know that the pretext was controlling inflation (which I haven't really figured out how much it is) - but perhaps it was just a pretext...? Perhaps LL was getting tired of seeing improvements in all kinds of areas, except in Events, and felt that the time was ripe to do something about it? I can't answer that.

One thing I'm pretty sure of. Good events will always attract crowds. Good event hosters will certainly be able to "extract payment" from customers. Entertainment, in RL, is not for free. Either you have sponsored entertainment - like on TV or radio, where ads pay for "free content" - or you have to pay for it - like going to the movies, theater, a concert, whatever. I expect both types to appear in SL. In either case, sponsors will only sponsor quality events. And people will also pay only for quality entertainment. I don't see any problem with that!

(Perhaps the fact that I live in a country where theaters are sponsored by the State to survive - since the plays they bring to the stage are so low quality that nobody would watch them otherwise! - makes me feel biased towards sponsorship of low quality events. Ah well)

The bottom line is, if you don't want to be part of the Second Life community, society and economy, and you don't think you have any skill whatsoever which can be used in SL, well, you can always pour in L$, buying them from GOM, and, for a few spare US$ per week, get tons of fun! This must be the cheapest form of entertainment in the whole universe!

Quoting someone at the Welcome Area: "I'm here to beat upon the people that have Basic accounts, want everything for free, and are complaining every minute of their time that nothing works as it should". While I'm strictly non-violent myself, in a way, I empathize with that theory. Slowly SL is changing towards a place where there are no free lunches.

You better accept that.

Gwyn and Prokofy, I agree completely (don't have a heart attack prok). I believe a large portion of the current "struggle" (which I contend doesn't actually exist in the way many seem to think it does) is that people come in to SL with only other mmorpg type games as a frame of reference and as a result they have similar expectations. In a traditional online game all the skills are artificial. There's very little strategy involved and the "skills" are simply game mechanics. Anyone can rise to the top tier/level/character class simply through the "Skinner Box" design of the world. You push the button and the cheese comes out. Push it enough times and you can have as much cheese as anyone else. SL doesn't fit into that same paradigm because success here depends on genuine real world skill and innovation. In a typical mmorpg the developers are constantly tweaking the balance between the character classes so that no one really has an advantage over anyone else. If there is inequity it results in much heated debate about what classes should be "buffed" and which need to be "gimped." If people come to SL with expectations based on that dynamic then it will seem to be a very unfair place. There are no character classes here. Attempts to define the SL world in those terms are mostly artificial and meaningless. It's up to each individual to make their own path, and we've only begun to scratch the surface of what the viable and meaninful skills and paths are. The dynamics here are completely market driven and we've only barely tapped the potential markets. The Lindens have tried to help foster development in certain areas like events and in world entertainment because with a small world they are more difficult to sustain, but the world has grown sufficiently now that they're taking off the training wheels and giving us a push. It's up to us to ride the bike or fall off. Events have now entered the purely market driven economy like everything else. It's up to event hosts, club owners, and participants in similar endeavors to make them viable and to innovate, and to capitalize on the existing demand. As long as people keep thinking of SL in terms of games based on artificial skills there will continue to be a false perception of a class system and complaints of unfairness. It's not up to Linden Lab to change that. It's up to us. Not all cultural evolution is painless, but it's absolutely necessary if we're going to continue to evolve and create opportunities... both for commerce and entertainment. Both are vital. People need to stop seeing creator or consumer as dirty words or as mutually exclusive. Each is a cog that drives the other.

*standing ovation to Chip*

I couldn't agree more with you. It's really time for the New World Order.

BTW, Chip, your clothes are underpriced For the quality of your work, I'd pay ten times as much and still would think them a bargain...

I want to say that this thread has really made me think. there are alot of good posts and ideas here. I want to thank everyone who has participated in this thread. you have given me alot to think about and change some of my opions on this whole thing. bravo for getting past the rehtoric and trying to come up with positive solutions to this. I intend to thing hard on this and try my best to come up with some positive ways to extend my experience in SL. I have been a avid socilizer and enjoy that. but it is time to extend that experience and try to make not only a decent SL living but improve SL for everyone.

Bravo to you all for your efforts on this. Pats everyone on the back for a job well done

Compare it to other games then... How many other games give you free money or points without having to do anything?

excellent point jon!

ingrid, you suck at the forums!

Being a *VERY* long time computer geek, I have to remind myself that most people in the domain of SL don't have my perspectives. What I'm getting at, is that the idea of SL being a "game" is absolutely preposterous. I don't see this as a game, and it rings alarms for me in the same way that a spelling error or improper grammar would. SL is not a "game". Games have winners, and losers. Period. Just because SL is a non office-type computer program, does not mean that it is a game, any more than FL Studio or Bryce 3D is a game. Can it be used for both recreational and professional purposes? Yes! I have a hard time thinking that Unreal Tournament or TSO can be used by end users for anything other than recreational purposes.

I signed in to SL knowing that it wasn't a "game", because of the past experiences I've had with similar simulations. Many years ago, there was a "thing", for lack of a specific name, called AlphaWorld. More recently, there was "There". I have been involved with computer generated world simulations, to my knowledge, since their first public appearance (and before that VRML and many other VR simulators). I must congratulate Linden Labs on developing the most advanced and versatile simulation I've seen to date. They have created something that simulates a society, very accurately, and with most of the necessary elements to truly achieve approximate simulation. Keeping this society productive, on track, and functional is not a responsibility I would care to have.

What I'm working up to here, is that there are (overall) two kinds of people. Those that view this for what it is...an alternate reality...and those that don't. I also want to factor in that this really truly is a simulation of a society. Unfortunately, in every society, you have those that are only alive to meet their needs. I would like to point out a few "qualities" of this type of individual, and for lack of other experience, I'll relate it to my in-game skill of event host.

This type of person would absolutely refuse to pay for an event, until such time that ALL events require a cover charge. This type of person will never tip the club staff, no matter how much fun they have at the event. If this type of person were to win a contest, you'd be lucky to get so much as a thank you out of them when they receive the prize.

More often than not, the aforementioned class of person views SL as a game, and is generally purely a consumer. They buy the clothes, the houses, the vehicles, the guns, and attend the events. Thus, they are as vital to the simulation as the content providers. Unfortunately, they don't contribute either, so they are a much less desireable member of the simulation.

I certainly may be hanging out in the wrong parts of SL, but in my experience, this class of user consists of at least 40% of the population I encounter. When I look at the idea of charging admission fees to my events, I have a premonition that it just won't work. The people will go elsewhere to get their "free-ride". Yes, there is the rest of the 60% that will still be responsible users, and understand that to get enjoyment, they must participate both socially and economically in the endeavors of others. It is my opinion, though, that those responsible folk are not the avid event attendees, and spend their time doing any number of activities, as is indeed their irrevocable right.

The previous posts in this thread have brought me to realize that, yes indeed, I will have to work a bit more to maintain my current "lifestyle" in SL...which is none too ritsy, I have to say. But, given the extremely limited amount of time I have, I am forced to forego the grand aspirations I have for SL...for now.

As happy as I am to see that there are people (in this forum, at least) that "get it", I will miss the ease of my old lifestyle. My RL is so busy, I very much enjoyed being able to come here and enjoy the benefits of a lifestyle, without having to work quite so hard for them...but the only thing that's constant in both of my lives, is change. I generally welcome change, and will resolve (eventually) to meet the challenges that I'm faced with. And as far as that goes, does anyone care to take a barely knowledgeable scripter under their wing?

I love this one

But I tell you what: True story of Anshe Chung is much less exciting. It was: study hard, work hard. I was spending my time with Poser when other people promoted themselves. And I was moving hours and hours and hours from land parcel to land parcel while others featured for cover stories in the Second Life media. People got to know me by my products and my work. I did not need promote myself to earn money. Nor did I need RL money to earn money here, which is one other frequently entertained myth

Everybody can succeed in Second Life. Yes, I do mean: everybody. The only thing required is right attitute and willingness to spend effort. Lazy bones won't succeed. Unreliable, unstable people who are unable motivate themselves to stay at something for more than 5 minutes won't succeed. But everyone else can. Where there is will there is way. You don't have skill? You learn skill!

Even most mentally slow person can find something to do. If you have brain that goes as fast as one bicycle after crash test with highway truck - you can make up! You are slow thinker you can become loyal and reliable helper for fast thinker. Because most of fast thinkers have problem of getting bored or busy too quick. But some place in SL can use somebody do regular things maybe for months.

You see, everybody has one place! Except for lazy bone people who want things for free without effort. If you want double your stipend and are willing to work, but don't know how, then you just IM me and I tell you what you can do

Anshe, this paragraph of yours totally had me smiling. Especially the part about the "crash test" -- I literally had quite a visual image of such a mental movie playing in my mind for some minutes after reading what you had to say.

I agree that complementary personalities are valuable, and that there are all sorts of people in Second Life.

I myself am quite chaotic, so it's nice to be paired with someone more orderly.

Ok, to play the part of devils advocate:

THIS IS NOT A GAME!!!!!!!! OMFG how can you say its a game?! blah blah blah inworld life blah blah blah i have no real life so this is it blah blah blah this isnt fake blah blah blah

blahdy blah blah.

Ha ha.

Been avoiding this thread, but...
"Poor people with no talent"? Please... There are poor people in SL, and no doubt there always will be, but people with no talent? NO, that I can't agree with. Everyone has something they do well. Dust because you haven't yet worked out how it fots with SL doesn't make you talentless.

Maybe you're a good speaker, or good at resolving disputes? Then be a mentor, or an event host.
Maybe you can teach, then be an instructor.
Maybe you are good at making a pretty av, then sell makeovers...

The list goes on and on... the world is yours, ours, to create ... and contrary to popular belief, the feded inner core or content barons or whatever are not overly secretive about how they do things, and most will be happy to help you, even if all you need is the confidence to try.

You have nothing to lose but your poverty.

I totally agree.. but i also know people irl i try to get to play SL.. only they dont have any idea there isnt much needed to play SL WITH some cash. Tips for people still doubting:

If you dont wanna buy land.. rent it..

Get a Prefab house if you can build..

Buy clothes and object .. or search for free objects ( there is a lot free around sl )

Then just be nice to people, and be hired as salesman/ women to maintain some cashflow.


This way you have clothing, a home, objects, and spare time to chat and make friends.. when ur just friendly, optimistic, loving to have fun, youll get nice friends.Theres nothing to playing Second life..


For Employers:
I hired 3 people myself who dont have any land for themselves. Paying them to be there for my customers. People sell better then silent vendors.... trust me... pay the staff 20 or more % of the objects price and your done..

See? Anybody can do it..

Sophos

You're right, Siobhan, but they might not have a talent SL can use.
Someone might sweep the streets well in RL, but there's no such job in SL.
Someone might repair cars well in RL, but still, that's not a talent in SL.

The list is long, the main thing is, SL has way less opportunities than RL

Though if it had the same, what would be the difference? People would work 8hrs "IRL" then come to SL to work another 4hrs ?

Wow! This WORKS???

I've thought of employing a person to help me sell, but hey, I thought that's a joke with all the automated vendors around SL.
Can you give me some details on HOW this works?

That's true, but they might have something close enough to SL to use, though they don't realise it. This is what communities are good at. People want things done, they can ask on the forums and someone might say "Wow, I could do that. I didn't think that would be useful in SL", and suddenly they have a way to make money.
And yes, I know what you mean about working 8h RL then coming to SL to work, but that goes for the rich people too. Except they've already done it.

While it is true that this is not TSO, as someone pointed out, if SL is interested in a growing community (as they clearly are as demonstrated by their word of mouth programs such as refer a friend) then they might also be interested in audience streaming. In other words, what has that audience just come from that might impact how it experiences what I offer. Because SL is so very different, the people I have referred from TSO (more than a dozen now) have largely stayed or left depending on how well they were able to adapt in the first week wherein income becomes a big question. Interestingly, it is not just the ability to make money at contests, but also the idea that one can do something that doesn't take software or programming expertise and that was also making a valid contribution to community: events hosting. It is interesting that so little discussion has focused on the "safety net" of knowing such jobs exist and that one can, if one wants to buy land faster than the week's stipends will allow one, simply work for a couple of hours hosting events and making money that way. The problem is, now there is no formal mechanism for paying the people who make events. A bridging program or at least some panel discussions or consultations with those who would be most affected by this decision might have gone a long way to easing some of the tension and anxiety now felt by those who entertain SLs masses. But even still, if I am a newb player, and I look at the things one can do to make money now, all that is left is stuff I don't know how to do. Am I likely to stay around the week after being referred if i believe that it will be months and hundreds of dollars before I can actually contribute something worth paying for in SL? (Keeping in mind that Event hosting has now been shifted from paid to unpaid work). And isn't the game economy's vitality linked, at least in part, to growing interest from the consumer base?

Well.. its really really simple.. no cost etc.. lol

i sell big objects.. houses.. makes it easy for me to do.. i tell the staff they should ask their customers to IM me with the staffmembers name.

Then i check in account history what has been bought and the staff member gets the cash when im online.. nothing more to it

It has been proven.. irl at least .. that an active seller sells lots better then a vendor or just pricetags in case of rl.
Its because the seller can bring things in attention of the customer like the refund rule nobody reads in front of my store.. lol..

good luck hiring

Persephone, I have a question for you. Have you even tried to get sponsorship from an SL merchant for one of your events? Have you asked any up and coming merchants to donate prizes in exchange for exposure? Have you experimented at all with a very small admission charge? If not, why not?