The camping chairs are dead! Long live the camping chairs!

First, I do not like building things for the sake of building things. I do not enjoy scripting either. I get to do this in my real life job and find it to be WORK.

Second, I do not see why camping chairs will stay with us. I could care less about providing money to newbies. Am sure that others are not so nice to newbies as to give them money. If they want to do so for "traffic" then it is their problem. It sort of gathers them toughter and out of the the way yes?

Lastly, I disagree with the snobs out there that tell me either to build or script or otherwise am a "parasite". My support is made directly to Linden Labs in the form of "premium" membership and tier. I did not join SL to get a life skill or make extra income. The thought of getting off work just to continue work is a joke and a sick one at that. I understand that there are a lot of "self important" stuckups out there and they are so much better than anyone else. You are beginning to understand that Linden Labs does things that are in the best intrests of Linden Labs and not you! Now you are crying about the mean company but you are no different. You do what is in your best intrests as do I.

Just get over it! If you dont like Second Life it is time for you to "move on".

Ok, I decided to jump in with the pirannahs today, and defend the issue at hand.

Why is everyone so upset about camping chairs? Do the camping chairs destroy the economy? I don't think so. The concept of the camping chairs don't destroy or even hurt the economy. If you look at it right, it was the dwell money that hurt a little, but think of this. The VGI group holds 27,000 Sqm of land split between 10 different sims. Each sim location is a VGI "Camping Casino." This type of camping system which was uniquely developed by VGI, links VGI's specially created "camping chairs" to games such as slot machines, and money doublers, and even card games. The base pay is set at L$3/10 min. and people actually come and play the games to win multipliers which increase the amount of money they earn every 10 minutes. Now I know that VGI is a highly advanced version of a casino and camping chairs mix, and really doesn't fit into the argument because only 15% of the people in a VGI casino are zombies. Lets look at an average daily payout, and then what a place gets from dwell money.

The VGI group totals in at about 200K total traffic rating or more per day. This brings in only L$3,500 a day from dwell for the group which is disbursed evenly to all 9 group members. Each VGI location averages about L$100,000 to L$400,000 in transactions a day. In the end, the VGI location owner makes about L$1,000 to L$4,000 a day. so about 1% of the daily transaction total is actually profit. And let me remind you all that this is all from gambling income, winnings, and camping chair payments.

Fortune casino closed down last year because of camping chairs, but it had a very high dwell rating at the time. 20 camping chairs paying steadily to leaches (Zombies) who sit, and don't play the casino games were totalling about L$6,000 a day. Now unless a place is generating over 400,000 traffic rating, they are running at a loss. Still think they use dwell money to pay the campers?

Why would you use camping chairs at your place of business? If you are running a casino, you would want the VGI camping casino system because people play the games to get more money. If you own a mall, you would probably use regular cheap camping chairs to generate the traffic of people who will buy stuff. Vendors look for places with high traffic ratings when they are looking to rent a vendor space. Around every VGI location, malls and stores pop up because people actually shop while they sit, play, and gamble. VGI does not currently offer vendor spaces at the locations, but soon will. Its part of business.

Camping chair money, or dirty money as some refer to it as, are in fact a quick and easy way for noobs to get first cash. Just like treasure hunts and money trees, except it takes longer. With this in place, we can eliminate the noobs stipend because there is no need for it anymore. The chairs have already integrated into SL, and clubs will lose money from loss of dwell money, but I think it will enter us into a new era of SL where business models change every 3-6 months.

SL is a perfect environment for virtual business, and testing different strategies for business and marketing along with learning how to move with the trends and adapt quickly to new ideas, and items. The game part is keeping ahead of the rest.

Ok, time to wrap it up... I think camping chairs do some good, though some bad comes out of it as well. If anything, camping loations should be banned from advertising "CAMPING" as an event. Camping Chairs offer a more robust customer group for vendors in places where they exist. The chairs are a content creation, and should still be respected as all other content in SL. Chairs are not a scam, as they are very strait forward. Suprisingly enough, I bet people would pay to sit at a camping chair location. VGI will never do that though. The chairs do not destroy the economy, the people looking to make RL money in a game from the start are the ones destroying the economy because they want to cash out quick, and put their money up for sale on the lindex at a lower price than everyone else to beat the system and cash out first (cutting in line). So before you continue to bash something. you better try it, and see what its really about! Wake up, smell the coffe, and stop grabbing your first idea and run with it. do some research and look at the entire picture.

As far as people not learning to build or script within the first 3 months or so because they go strait to camping chairs.. they are the ones who are just here for money. They may never contribute to SL in any positive manner. People who want SL for what it is, and not just to make money will always do so. It is up the individual to how they want to spend their life in SL. If they want to live as a zombi, then so be it.

I have talked enough. Now I will be eaten by the fishes......blub....

^ Games Prototype recently appeared in an article by Hamlet Au in New World Notes.

I used to sit in camping chairs a lot (I've referred to them more as "money chairs", altho this has changed over time.)

Before the spread of chairs, there were money balls--they're still around, altho not grabbing me spotlights as much. And yeah, I'd see lots of non-talkative avs wanting a chance at the L$1000 (or more) prizes I'd commonly see get doled out. I'd be in the crowd too, it was really thrilling.

I had a lot of good conversations in camping chairs. No, not a common experience from what I hear, but it'd be the funniest thing sometimes, being surrounded by idlers and then having another person observe, "Everyone's so silent, eh?" and I'd nod my head, while the timer went up. (And one of the most glam setups that will still permeate my memory are the security guard-themed seats at RICX's. Something about that was like Battlestar Galactica in an oblique breaks-kinda way.)

I remember L$1 rates--there is a lot more before my time I wasn't here for. Not sure I can place a value like "good" or "bad"; I certainly enjoyed my time going through it, like my ragged youth being to Woodstock (to use an analogy, as I've never been to Woodstock). But: an experience for sure.

I have always wanted to see neat spins come off of the default "sit your av ass down!" like the casino games pointed out, and I once mused about a travelling camping chair too. Reminds me taking the most generic techno cliches and supercolliding them--what I did in a previous life. Banner HUD ads haven't taken off like I originally thot they might, but neither have DIY shadow kits. (Still to come, I hope.)

I watch, I live, and go through this wide-eyed.

Games Prototype, in all fairness i would say your right Money chairs have given a BOOST to the game. But then again it caused alot of people to NOT learn or build in there early eary years in the game. Ok you say they can always learn................Well this is true.......But with one big BUT...Now these new players in the game dont have as much supply of money chair device to zombie on now.NOW WHAT?! Their welfare is gone...........Keep in mine most newbie if they are really newbies came in as a referal KNOWING about how easy it is to sit on your rabbit tail and earn money. what is sad is they don`t even now how to use gestures, position their hair etc.........
As you know back in june 2005 We launched the "GREETERS PROGRAM". I was in the first bunch that started in this poliet program we all worked to death....As the numbers of player increasded to 70,000 we hit a influx of new player hitting the game.....We noticed they were not learn nor did they care about learning. Hence we lower the standards a bit and start giving out notecards with infor on them for even the basic learning ( BAD MOVE ) we pushed their SL IQ EVEN LOWER ( OK STUPID is a more straight forward term )(IN MY MIND)). These newborn newbies just when straight to money chair right after birth........From 3rd quarter 2005 to say Jan 2006 was the most confusion and sading time for sl. Why? because all you saw was newbies with very little skills sitting in chair earning pennies on the linden for hours on end without really learning or experience places like North paris which had gambling type money device. But the setting was one of the greatest i ever seen on sl.

I am not bashing you here Games Prototype, but maybe alittle more insight from someone who dealt with those moneychair boomer chair players.Now what? Where do they go what do they do? How can you say this " Do the camping chairs destroy the economy?" But infact its hurt future of the economy from those that took the easy way out to race thur this game take the money AND RUN!........ In all fairness your looking at the take money and RUN business Model instead or looking to the future and look at the after effects of unlessness those chairs did to the game........ ITs created uneducted money greedy " WHERE MY 50L YOUR FUCKING MONEY CHAIRS CRASHED I DID NOT GET PAID" or The fucking money shot machines have me only 20l bla bla bla.......start ass players.
Sorry but i not going to put on Rose colored glasses and say the sky is pretty But its really cloudy.
Thank you for reading this and my bad english grammar....

have a wonderful day Games really

They lag up sims and sometimes even prevent people resident in the area from entering their own homes, whilst achieving nothing. It's pollution.

I understand what you are seeing here Usagi, and I understand why you think this, but do you really think its the money chairs doing this to new players, or the fact that LL advertises SL as a place to make RL money?

People don't originally come to SL anymore to be creative like they used to. they are coming to make real money as advertised by LL. so if you want to point fingers, you can actually blame LL for how they are making new people look at SL. If you follow the lik in here that tory linden posed only 2 posts down, you will read the article that Hamlet wrote on me with a very good observation.

People who actually join SL to be creative and add to the content of SL will never be seen in camping chairs. They will own land, and rent stores, and be creating stuff in the sandboxes. the people you see in the chairs are the result of promis by LL for people to make money. the chairs arent changing things, they are the result of what happens when people lose the real reason for why SL exists.

VGI knows all of this, and is actually working on some large scale projects to bring back builders events where the best builders can win money, and even get contracts to build for people. also, avatar and design contests, with winnings of free advertisement of their creations, and commission free or rent free vending at VGI locations. We hope that this will push more people and give them the needed incentive to start learning how to build and create avatars to add more content to SL, and tap its real potential. Does this help with your SL vision?

As someone who's fairly new, I can tell you I was kinda lost for what to do the first day or two. I flew around a lot.

I ran across some camping chairs, sat in one for about 2 minutes. When nothing interesting happened, I got up and left. I completely don't understand why people would log into second life just to stare at a wall. I could make a screensaver for that.

I guess because I've never played any MMORPGs I'm not trained with the whole "farming" mentality. The closest I've ever come to that is running the same zone over and over in a MUD to collect EQ to sell.

Anyway, then I found the sandboxes after a couple days and decided to start building stuff. I've done pretty well since that day.

My experiences with camping chairs / dance pads...

When I first came into SL, my main intention was to build, script and bring beauty in to share with others here.

Being a noobie, I had a lot of learning ahead of me. Instead of standing around like an idiot, reading tutorial notecards and such, I found camping chairs to be the perfect place to sit and read the notecard tutorials I had accumulated. The extra few bucks were a BIG PLUS.

I found a place called Golgotha - and they had great paying dance pads, with actual people talking, playing games having a great time socially, and very few zombies. That quickly became my favorite place in SL to study, socialize, have fun, and make new friends. (Thank you Sammmy)

I see far too many newbies that are totally sapped for cash. It breaks my heart, and I have often given people who were down on their funds a couple hundred L$, to show them that there are some kind and generous people who would like nothing more than knowing that a new person is having a good experience exploring and learning in their new world.

Since the chairs and pads have been phasing out over the past few months, I've seen more and more beggars, spamming group IMs saying "Can anybody spare some L$?"

I've seen people come to a club for a few minutes and leave - leaving behind their own TIP JAR! I doubt this incideous ploy nets them much, but you can be sure that some people will want to tip the DJ and accidentally tip the jar left there by a trickster.

So, with these incentives gone - all the chairs will be gone, clubs will close and stand as sad, unfulfilled dreams, and...

And i think you're guaranteed this...

Expect a LOT OF PANHANDLING, BEGGING, AND SCHEMING from not only the people who don't have any L$, but also the very GREEDY and LAZY.

I see no good coming of this at all.

I sat in a few chairs in the boom times watching movies........
But Games, You and me came in nearly the same time on sl....oct 2004 here you aug 2004. That era was awhole different game.......And people in the most part DON`T come in to the game nowaday not to create. Thats because of money making chairs and dance pads THATS WHY........Can you really honestly tell me if we did not have money chairs they stil wil not create future content to build and sell? I don`t believe this games....Infact I think they would,but because LLabs wanted to increase the populas they threw caution to the wind and created a monster of stupid and unproductive people existing on sl with (D I)......

Ok now your saying creating money content like fun, making people put in codes or putting in ways to insure they are really in body at the keyboard is creating creative fun way. or mutlipulers and dances pads raffles etc wil make a diff. I highly doubt thos epople care what effort you doing all they see is 3l for ten min = over 20 hour worth of lindens......well have you seen those people sitting in casino chair 3 to 10 mins. more time then not they are just sitting ther eating up 3l per 10 mins. Not playing game not using % increase to boost chair gains......They are just sitting....If they dont put in codes to make sure they are "REALLY" infront of their computer and or running 5 or more alts at the same time etc.......is your answer to the fun and creative concept here? I might be japanese and half way around the world but some business models are the same....."LETS THEM THINK THEY ARE GETTING THINGS FOR FREE BUT REALLY THEY ARE THE ONES LOSING AND THE OWNERS ARE THE ONES GAINING........." Having AU and Torley Linden here backing up your business model concept is really lame and shows how much power you have over the rest of sl world......Again we are now stuck with unproductive players which over time wil leave the game with Lindens and give nothing back in any form of to the game. Cultural, eco, etc.............They are just zombies that come out at night when their owners are either at work, school, or asleep......

Again Games this is not a direct bash to you.IF i have seem to be then I am sorry I expressed it that way.....I just can`t stand their existance anymore. And or the greed/grieftint stealling and or evencausing globle serve outages that have in some ways happened do to the these greed eating chairs.

Please don't misunderstand my intentions here in SL Usagi. My goal is to gather up these greedy people, and accomplish your original goal that you talked about before. Round up the lemmings, and teach them how to fly. The backing I get from the lindens is on their own accord. they just happen to see what I am trying to do here, unlike a lot of other people. I dont think of myself as higher up in the food chain than anyone else. I am your equal, just trying to make SL back into what it was before. We can't ignore the fact about the chairs. they came, got popular, and are now a source of income for noobs. aside from that, I don't demand "special" treatment like some big shots here do, and I don't treat people unfairly. I am not a god, nor do I pretend to be. I look at you and all of my customers as friends that are on my level, and never beneath me. I strive to train all of my managers to have the same outlook, as that is how I want people to view VGI. Here for the people. Right now you see step one. VGI only started to take off in January of this year.

Also, if you look at my original account (Jason Foo) Usagi, you will see that I have been in SL since Feb. 2004. Over 2 years. I was here when SL was still a baby, and yes, you are right. the game is completely different from what it used to be. but we need to be able to roll with that, and change with the times. things are a bit more complicated now than they were before. Use the percentage rule. for every 1 person coming to SL who will add to the content and experience, there are 5 that will just putz around, and try to scam money. With the rise in joinees, those numbers rise quick, and you notice the scammers and greedies more. I just refer to them as leaches.

I know your not bashing me or VGI, but I want you to know that we are both working toward a common goal here. To make SL an enjoyable place to be, with more quality content and events. We are both on the same side here.

thats wondeful you been around that long maybe you feel you are games and maybe in some ways you are building content. But there are more people here that feel even stronger about money chairs then I........Again Games thank you for reading

Usagi

I would like to point out again that not everone that plays Second Life is a content provider. I am hopeless whan it comes to drawing and scripting is too much work for my off duty time. In any case it is in my firms own langauge and is finance in nature. Not much help in Second life!

Is everone saying that you have to be a "content" provider ro be able to use Second Life or else you are a "leach"? If so I find that very unfair and elieltist on your part. My contribution to Second Life is paying Linden labs to run the servers and provide technicial support.

In closing, I dont want to work in Second Life, I dont use camping chairs, pads, etc and if I need objects would have to pay for them. What is so bad about that?

We are not calling people who are not content creators in SL leaches. The people who come to SL solely to make RL money and "NOT" bring anything to SL in the form of content or services are the leaches. SL and content in SL is created for people to enjoy. Buy a boat and cruise the many lakes and rivers of SL. The views are wonderful. Simply enjoying the content already created in SL is not being a leach. Relax, and have fun. go to a pool party, and hang with friends, or go to a discussion group meeting and talk about stuff.

that is what SL is for.

In all fairness.......attacking games is not goign to solve the problem. What will is the reduction and or banning of the chairs...........Money chair is and well a thing of the past soon . Its damage has been done. Now we must recover......... Lets close this chapter and start a new one a better healther second life.

So are you saying that even the VGI camping casino is bad? Its not like all the other camping chairs out there that you see. Its a casino. People are going to be in the casino to gamble right? so there is a comp system in place as camping chairs. the more you gamble, the more multipliers you can win, and win more money. just like in a RL casino. You have a card that you put into a slot machine in a RL casino that gives you comps as you spend money. Thats what these chairs are. People who just sit in a VGI chair and don't play, get very little money, and are stood up at about L$30. People who play make thousands of dollars in the chairs. So I ask again, when you say camping chairs should be banned Usagi, do you talk about VGI as well?

Ok, Cool! You have named the reasons I am on Second Life. I like to hang out with my friends, relax and have fun.

Hopefully I will see you online sometime Have fun!

You make a convincing case for yourself, Games Prototype.

I think everyone can agree that camping chairs are bad. They lag sims, they decrease social interaction, they just drain the fun out of SL.

But your chairs aren't camping chairs. They were derived from camping chairs, but you've put some thought and effort into them and turned them into something worthwhile. Good job.

There's still the semantic issue, though. Since your chairs do pay people, and they're derived from the evil camping chairs, people tend to lump them all together.

Time will tell. You claim you don't depend on dwell. If you're right, dwell's removal will get rid of the bad camping chairs, and leave yours remaining.

Most who have read my posts in other threads know I am not a big supporter of camping chairs but that does not mean I think they should be wiped from the grid wholesale.

My own experience as a New Resident came at time when ratings we being gamed to the limit for rating bonus, clubs had money balls spitting out 10 L every 2-5 minutes, events were sponsored by LL and there were some really big cash prizes out there. Did I go dancing and collect some of this cash? You bet I did. Did I get a ratings bonus? once again yep sure did. Did I enter contests? Yep actually won 1 building contest.

Did I learn how to create in SL? That would be a resounding YES. Started learning to build my first day. I admit however that I have only seriously started scripting in the last few months.

I don't think camping chairs are any different from the moneyballs of times past. Those people who wish to create will create. Those that wish to be social will. Those that want a bit over everything will find a way to do that. For many sitting in a chair for a few hours is a way to get the extra cash for texture uploads etc. Not everyone can afford premium. Likewise not everyone can or wishes to buy money on Lindex. Some people take great satisfaction in knowing any achievements they make in world was entirely accomplished by what they managed to do in world with no outside injection of cash. Everyone has their own style of Second Living.

I also do not believe camping chairs will go away because Traffic Bonus did. Taffic was not so large an offset to the Cash paid out to seriously affect the large camping places. Nope they are here to stay till the next gimmick comes along (and it will).

People bemoan Camping chair places as lagging sims and preventing residents from getting to their homes. True some do this. But so do clubs. I have seen clubs that are so badly designed that even empty they bring movement to a standstill. After Dark Left its original location in Disl because neither we nor our customers could get to the house lot because a club filled the sim. Thats second life. Things change. Not everyone is considerate of neighbors. Is it right? Certainly not. But camping chairs are not alone. If Camping Chairs are wiped so should laggy clubs and likely a number of other things as well. Do we really want to start that ball rolling?

Strange you keep asking me "WHY" a Questen with Another Questen right back at me.
Very Cute.........
Have you seen the amount of "MENTORS" inthe game? the increased to way over 700! your going to say well thegame increased .yes it did.BUT What LLABS did not expect was the Influx of MONEYCHAIR type minded people just sitting without learning or exploring the game. As you remeber LLabds had the EVENT SUPPORT SYSTEM Which gave owner the ability to hire Host and LLabs would pay for the HOST 250L a event. Why did they do this? to create a action to get people out of their homes and into a more social events..They pushed the rate your people concept etc. to increase onces ability to be out in the public........instead of dwelling on their own land. But Then LLabs "CHANGED" the rules again losing event support,rate bonus increased ETC.......Money Chairs/ Gaming clubs has caused more anti social behavoirs then social ones. I Don`t know that kind of RL business you do. But Social Behavior is a important Key to understanding the envoriment your can do business in..Taking in account the types of people and their habits. With money chairs all the see is a ticker above their head reading " YOUR ARE MAKING bla bla bla" what kind of behavior is this?...I tell you its a conditing concept.. resultinging having these poor unknowing people EXPECT Free money ..........Well one thing still hits me hard with these camping chairs, is people lose the concept of why games like this are even on the internet. To gather and enjoy. But NOW its all about MONEY. Even philip linden refered to the game where money is the objective REAL MONEY. Look at the years worth of PR starting around Aug 2005 where there was a BIG gaming pushing and LLabs de some fancy PR work what caused the POPULAS to increase..Gesh the had this great "Greeters Program" all layed out pretty and all really to be launched...It was our job to show the Newbies around sl, games,dancing,exploring etc......What happened along the way MONEY CHAIR.......They changed are role to moreless "TECHIES" to help newbies do a "QUICK START" program which was launched when the Gaming Boom hit around Aug 2005 is a very well knewn person did a PR Hype this game and the rest is whathte say .is all down hill. My point is Money chairs caused more harm then good, your fighting for the last bit of space to recover the abilities to push them Up. Your trying to save the last bits of a dieing bubble that is busted and and losing air fast. Having AU and Torley Linden here backing up your business model concept , is proving is very factor, nothing is going to save money chair because the that don`t follow the greed model of why games like this exist. PEOPLE JUST DON`T WANT THEM ANY MORE..Its a bubble the Blusted. Now let move on to a healthier more people productive eco model which 40% or more don`t sit like dead like pieces of human,furry,etc....
These days one refers to Gambling location with MONEY CHAIRS.....YES thisis how it appies to you Games.........

Pfft. People can hate on camping chairs all they want. Frankly, it was pretty ingenious from a marketing standpoint. It was innovative, which is the goal of the game, right? The message seems to be "be innovative... to a point." I'd much rather think of the dwell fix as an inflationary measure.

Well if you say making zombies chairs 24/7 being creative ways to draw dwelling? DI really killed the creative part of the game.........which infact it was to simulate the creative person.


In all fairness to Games Prototype he is a business person......But what bothered me in this chat was how he tried to use AU and Torley Linden here backing up his business model concept referance in this madness......... I seen this type of PR on sl around 1 year ago what happened? A super high influx of people coming into the game believing "YOU CAN MAKE REAL MONEY HERE.Well you still have to pay your electric bill...........LLabs never told you sitting in money chairs was "FREE" Monies.......24/7 um.......... no incease in electric bill? gesh............................highly doubtful

Sure. Why not? If somebody is regularly monopolising the resources of a sim and stopping other people getting in, it's a problem.

At least people are actually doing stuff in clubs, of course.

How many people are actually here just to make RL money? And how many people making real money are here for all sorts of other reasons? How many people are making RL money without providing content or a service? There tends to be an assumption that anyone here making RL money has that as their sole motivation. The number of people that may actually be true of is probably far less than people seem to imagine.

Oh, and this is purely a personal view, but I'd be hard pressed to describe a casino as either content or a service.

Rubbish.

A similar idea has existed in Sims Online for as long as, if not longer, than SL has been around, where people would pay visitors to just sit on their property for hours on end and make it look artificially popular. That, together with EA's incompetence, is what killed that game, and I see a very similar pattern happening here.

Traffic has never been a good indication of quality. Just because somewhere has Tringo set that pulls in 15 people to play means absolutely nothing - the design may be crap (and in fact, almost every Tringo place I've been to is as badly designed as the next) and the only thing to differentiate between them is the amount of lag suffered depending on whatever else is nearby.

Going back to TSO, there was a ranking of who had the most friends by the amount of people who swapped 'friend balloons' with them. The 'most popular person' for a long long time simply paid people to get a balloon - and when the system changed so that a friendship had to be maintained through interaction rather than a one-off transaction, this person plummeted from the popularity list, and I don't think he is even on it any more.

Whatever system there is for measuring quality... someone somewhere will abuse it to manipulate it to their own benefit, then everyone else will start to pay more for the same and try and outdo them.

People think SL is innovative. The technology is... but the players are not. Until people start providing stuff for the sheer fun of it, and ignore quality and inflating popularity, nothing will ever change. Unfortunately, with LL's false marketing and emphasis on the economic side, that isn't going to happen.

Lewis

Thats good - If your playing tringo you really want the rest of the sim to be as empty as possible



I have to disagree, the players are very very innovative and there is a huge amount of stuff that is provided just because. The only place in SL where the economy manifests itself for most players is the economy forum, most people really don't care