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Invisible (Proposal)

Gwyneth Llewelyn
Winking Loudmouth
Join date: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1,336
05-03-2005 01:27
Erzulie, one thing is "privacy". That is something that most of us would certainly agree with and there is absolutely no problem in proposing more privacy - say, to the point that you could really have walls that other people's cameras couldn't go through (and yes, I'm aware that there are tricks to allow for that - but they also require lots of prims), a better way to deal with chat so that it doesn't go through walls (I understand that the way SL works this is almost impossible to do right now), an option to turn your green dot off (although this is borderlining on what you could/should be allowed to do), and better IM features (a "Show Offline" mode that you could use to block a resident from IMing you.

While I would certainly agree with better "walls" in SL, or even better tools for "muting" residents, all the rest are issues dealing mostly with "accountability" and not "privacy".

However, your proposal, as listed, is called "Invisible" and the details show "allow avatars to be invisible when they want and even just to certain players". Well, invisible was perhaps a bad choice of words, since "invisible in IM" is certainly not the same as "invisible in SL". This will make voting on your proposal very difficult, since, if it weren't for this thread explaining details, we wouldn't ever be sure of what you meant :)

One question: an "invisible" avatar, under your opinion, would be trackable through a scripted sensor or not?
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Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
05-03-2005 02:21
From: Dan Mondrian
I cannot think of a single sincere reason to be ONliine and INvisible.

Vote NO.


Oh good counter argument! Well done! Quote my own post giving my reasons for wanting it, then put your own blinkers back on and dismiss it saying that YOU can't think of a single reason to use it. Welcome to the Feature Suggestions forum. You'll fit right in. :rolleyes:
Nerys Zaius
Grrr :-)
Join date: 7 Mar 2004
Posts: 70
05-03-2005 11:17
Agree invisible is bad but there is a workaround that will work

no one is invisible you are always visible your green dot is always visible.

you can not have a name or find that is offline. that would be decieving and is unwanted (by me at least) what WOULD make sense is a PRIVATE notification.

so if I did a find on someone "invisible" it would NOT tell me they are online and it would NOT tell me they are ofline it would ALWAYS say "Status:private" if they have that mode selected whether they are online or offline.

if you sent them an IM it would say this user is set to private your message will be held for them to respond if and when they are online (retaining there privacy without being able to use IM as a way to see if they are online or not) this also means you could not track this person unless you were withing visual range of them (which is fine with me)

this would make sense. I have no need for it but I CAN see legit reasons for people wanting this. basically a privacy log on of sorts. Like the privacy tag for hotel rooms. yes I have checked in (registered with SL) but dont dirturb me and you dont know if I am in the room or not if I bump into you I can be seen off course. if you check how many people are in the hotel I will show up but not by name. just as one more figure in the count.

One thing I would like to see if a way to chat in world without BEING in world. for example when away from home without a fast computer and broadband a PALM app etc.. to let me log into SL and "chat" with the people in sl would be cool. have a small sphere above the ground with my name above it saying "virtual" Nerys Zaius. I enter the sim and coords I want to be at to chat. this would be a cool but not critical feature to have.

Chris Taylor
http://www.zodiacreview.com/
Persephone Phoenix
loving laptopvideo2go.com
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,012
Wording of the proposal
05-04-2005 08:09
The actual wording of the proposal says "which would also remove the green dot."

I would only worry if this were a tool for griefers to harass people.

From: Fa nyak
i believe that any implimentation of this would mean that you could make yourself un-trackable (appear as being offline) by people with you on their friend list, so you could avoid getting pestered while working on something important or having a private conversation with someone. I don't believe it would make your green dot dissappear, as those dots are anonymous anyway, and just represent "someone nearby". No reason to hide your green dot...i doubt anyone's going to specifically track you down using that anyway :P
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Lindar Lehane
registered user
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 272
05-05-2005 07:30
From: Oz Spade
Firstly, all avatars would be visible (i.e. if the person has "invisible" mode on, but standing infront of you, you would see them, but they would appear Offline


I don't know where that comes from Oz. The proposition states
" allow avatars to be invisible when they want"
and although it then "also" goes on about the map, it never withdraws this request for actual invisibility.

With so many votes cast, the proposition IS what the majority of people thought it said, and I suggest they thought it meant "invisible avatar".

Personally, I want to be able to log on occasionally without any of my friends knowing it. The current "Busy" doesn't cut the mustard.

Once you log on, everybody is notified, even if you set "Busy" at once, and a check will show you are online. So peoples feelings can be hurt if you decline to interact with them. (g'fs for instance).

I would suggest a button ON THE LOGIN SCREEN to chose a "Busy" mode in which no-one is notified of our arrival or departure, and we are not flagged as online, and IM's receive no "I am Busy" message.

Please don't lets have invisible avatars everywhere, with objects jumping all over the place apparently on their own, and people worrying about their safety from stalkers and other prying eyes.
Oz Spade
ReadsNoPostLongerThanHand
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 2,708
05-05-2005 14:03
Yeah, the proposition itself doesn't say that, but this thread does (and others before it). The proposition itself does need to be clearer about that as you and others have made apparent.

I don't think LL would actualy implement an "avatars invisible" mode even if it was the highest rated thing.

I like the idea of picking what mode to sign in as. Kinda like how Yahoo and MSN have, where you can specifiy to sign in as Offline/Busy/Away, etc.

Could have it somewhere on the login screen or in Preferences - Chat. Would be something doable *today* I imagine as well.
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Gwyneth Llewelyn
Winking Loudmouth
Join date: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1,336
05-05-2005 16:51
Actually, I believe that the Lindens have this functionality already... :)
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Ritz Pinkerton
Builder/Scripter
Join date: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 22
05-18-2005 16:06
From: Dan Mondrian
I cannot think of a single sincere reason to be ONliine and INvisible.

Vote NO.

so, in RL, when you want privacy, do you just kill yourself? (to make yourself "offline";)

SL isn't an escape from RL. It's a game. It's a game with lots of RL people in it. RL people who tend to be more immature behind a computer screen because they just can be. Give some valid reasons, and maybe someone will agree with you.

----
on the other hand, I disagree with the proposal, BUT not with the other ideas people have brought up. AVATARS do not need to become invisible. There's no reason for it. The green dots on the map don't matter much to me. I could understand having the option to have your dot disappear if you're on your own PERSONAL land (ie- not group land of a group you're in)... and a invisible option for your friends list sounds like the way it's been pushed here.

... after thinking about it for a few minutes while writing this, what would happen if you were invisible and were walking around? bumped into people who are on your friends list? it's different from IM programs like Yahoo, because there's a visual aspect of it too. Not just "audio" if you will. Any thoughts?
Travis Lambert
White dog, red collar
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,819
05-18-2005 16:53
Ugh.

IMHO this is a really important feature we really need. However, the way its worded makes it very confusing. I completely see where one could interperet it as asking for "Avatar Invisibility". (Which I'd never be in support of).

We need a way to be able to logon, and choose whether or not we have our friends notified "Travis Lambert is Online.".


We need Chat Invisibility. Like Yahoo.


We don't need "Avatar Invisibility". Like EQ.
Nerys Zaius
Grrr :-)
Join date: 7 Mar 2004
Posts: 70
05-18-2005 17:02
So in real life you have the ability to be among people and invisible ?

did not think so, the remifications are NOT nice to think about.

under no conditions should you be able to see me without me being able to see you lest this be abused to no end.

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/
Nerys Zaius
Grrr :-)
Join date: 7 Mar 2004
Posts: 70
05-18-2005 17:04
that I can agree with. ie the ONLY changes that make sense are as follows

you log in as private and you online status does not change (says offline) in find or to friends etc.. if someone IM's you it does so as if your offline ie message will be stored.

you still get a green dot and your still visible to anyone in range of you etc..

THAT is fine I can very much see a need for that especially with some of the buisier people in SL

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/
Winter Phoenix
Voyager of Experiences
Join date: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 683
05-19-2005 19:36
ya know, just being able to eliminate that little " HEY, SO AND SO JUST LOGGED IN"
thingy would save me a bunch of IMs right off that bat. Kinda like sneaking in the backdoor quietly and trying not to wake the wife. Green dots? Leave em. If somebody wants to talk to you bad enough they will.
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WHEN AND HOW TO DO IT,
WHAT YOU CAN READ, VIEW, OR LISTEN TO,
WHAT YOU CAN SAY,
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Gwyneth Llewelyn
Winking Loudmouth
Join date: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1,336
05-20-2005 01:22
Winter - you can. That's an option from Preferences, General, "Print Online Notifications".

Just uncheck it :)
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Winter Phoenix
Voyager of Experiences
Join date: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 683
05-20-2005 14:46
Hmmm, tell me Gwyneth, does that actually turn off mine from showing up on others, or does it just shut off the ones that show up on my screen? My issue isnt seeing others pop on, its me showing up on theirs. Then they know Im online and can start nailing me with IMs.
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~GIVEN FREE REIGN THE SYSTEM WILL TELL YOU,
WHAT TO DO,
WHEN AND HOW TO DO IT,
WHAT YOU CAN READ, VIEW, OR LISTEN TO,
WHAT YOU CAN SAY,
WHAT YOU CAN DO WITH YOUR OWN BODY,
AND SUCK ALL YOUR MONEY OUT OF YOUR POCKET WHILE IT DOES THIS!
QUESTION AUTHORITY!~ W.P
Hiro Pendragon
bye bye f0rums!
Join date: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,905
05-25-2005 02:55
Making your avatar invisible flies in the face of others' property rights to know who is on their land.

Counter-proposal:
land feature - allow avatar invisibility
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Leonn Rubio
Rebmem Roines
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 113
06-04-2005 16:34
I like this idea and I do not. For one, no one bothers me much, lol. But I can see how peeping can make you feel weird if you are attached to the world. I'm about to go on a tangent so forgive me...

...I think what we really need is a client side plot of land or a miniature local sim server. This way you can have control over who can visit or see you and you can do everything you would be able to do in a main world sim. I think this idea might not be so appealing to Linden Labs as it might affect capitalism shift/mess up/give a wedgie to the economy and lessen the real money SL makes them, maybe. Also, it may not be a pleasant development idea. I'm not sure what has gone into coding SL but I know what it's like to add certain demanded features when you never intended to add them in the first place.

What if you want to build something in private using the invisible system? I do not think it would be practical for developers to take the time to make your objects invisible while you build them. It would be fairly easy ( unless they have coded in a way that it would be impossible to... ) to figure out how to make your new objects not visible and old builds visible ( imagine all the objects you ever made becoming invisible! ), but I have a feeling the code would not be just a simple insertion on their part. Something as globally useful as a local area to play in might take care of many of our gripes: Privacy, Land; Barons, availability, etc. , More Sand Boxes. Can you think of more? A larger coding task but far more inclusive of other proposals and needs.

I don't post in the forums much. Unless it is important to me and this particular issue is pretty important. I would be more inclined to become a subscriber if I had the ability to develop things on my laptop when I'm on the go without a connection. Then again maybe I belong to a minority of SL players/citizens.
Jessica Kinsella
Artistic Heathen
Join date: 4 Feb 2005
Posts: 21
Trash that, how about this?
06-05-2005 21:32
in case anyone missed it, we already have invisible avatars (though their names still show above them)

add the ability to remove your status and locator dot and you've given people massive potential for abuse, both of others and the system.

as written, the proposal is bad.

a better proposal:

a) allow busymode to be set from the login screen.
b)users do not recieve notice of busy mode logons.
c)setting or removing busy mode inworld should trigger the appropriate offline/online message respectively.
d)allow busy mode to show avatars as offline via friends/find/profile/IM windows.
e)map user location would default to off. (though I see some potential abuse there)

(d,and e are already partially instituted with private islands, via profile, avies on private islands show as Online: "unknown" rather than "yes" or "no" and are unmappable)

addendum: map dot stays, name above avatar stays, no avatar changes.

Reasoning: designers, builders, and people seeking momentary privacy from friends should have the opportunity to gain it. If I want to log on and update my vendors, and get out I can, without wasting time explaining to everyone that I'm just here to update and leave which uses more resources and time then if I'd just been able to quietly do my updates. this is a similar effect to having ones cell phone turned off or letting the answering machine get house calls. save on resource traffic, keep users happier, and hinder griefers all in one fell swoop.

personally there are days, though I love my friends dearly, that I just want to go exploring in someplace and enjoy the game without having the worries of being rude, or social obligations... occasionally I like ME time, and it's one of the reasons I play in SL... but because SL is made up of real people, attachments happen, and people form social connections... but in real life I don't wear a gp tracker that notifies all my friends the second I wake up...

additionally this would reduce the ability of griefers to track specific people they've targeted (no need for a card, there are scripts to see if you are online or not), and would reduce retalliation as well.

ah ignorance is bliss ....happy lindens, happy users who could say no to that? =)
Ash Qin
A fox!
Join date: 16 Feb 2005
Posts: 103
06-09-2005 01:51
Makes stalking easier.
Nerys Zaius
Grrr :-)
Join date: 7 Mar 2004
Posts: 70
06-09-2005 10:55
invisible avatar = bad

with one exception - on your own land. not grup land but your own personal land. i might see reason in that

marked as offline. - im's declare offline - search declares offline and no notice to friends your online yes nothing else

anything else has no real legitimate use besides abuse

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/
Nikolaii Uritsky
Filthy Old Man
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 671
06-09-2005 17:19
From: Jessica Kinsella
a better proposal:

a) allow busymode to be set from the login screen.
b)users do not recieve notice of busy mode logons.
c)setting or removing busy mode inworld should trigger the appropriate offline/online message respectively.
d)allow busy mode to show avatars as offline via friends/find/profile/IM windows.


Seconded. Though we already have Busy, so it's have to be something else. I like the "Away Messages" sometimes.

I would like to mention, though, on a completely unrelated note, that I HATE having to actually IM someone to see that they're set to Busy. I don't understand why, in the IM window, it says next to everyone's name (Online) if they're online and doesn't change, even if they're Away or Busy. Why can't it show Away/Busy people in the IM window as Away/Busy? And when you click on the name of someone who's set to Busy, it really should automatically display their Busy message.. It gives you an automatic message in the IM window if they're -offline-, so why not do it for Busy. -_-

Away should also really function more like Busy with an idle timer.. :\ There should be a changeable message for that, too.

</rant>
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Vote for .PNG support for textures!

Vote for chat invisibility!
Travis Lambert
White dog, red collar
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,819
09-24-2005 21:18
Based upon Linden's comments updated in this proposal:

From: Linden Notes:

This is a popular request.

We know that invisibility would be useful on private islands. When we develop a set of tools for residents on those islands, we will try to find a way to add invisibility.


It sure looks to me that Linden took this proposal to mean "Avatar Invisibility" instead of Chat Invisibility. That's not what I put NINE of my votes towards, and based upon the discussion in this thread I don't think I'm alone.

We need CHAT INVISIBILITY desperately, like Yahoo has. It has to be one of the most gaping holes in the chat space, and makes it difficult to log on to get some work done without interruptions.

"Avatar Invisibility" is extremely contentious, and has benefits in only a limited set of circumstances. Limited enough that I doubt this proposal would have received so many votes if the meaning was clear.
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The Shelter

The Shelter is a non-profit recreation center for new residents, and supporters of new residents. Our goal is to provide a positive & supportive social environment for those looking for one in our overwhelming world.
Torley Linden
Enlightenment!
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 16,530
09-24-2005 21:25
From: Travis Lambert

We need CHAT INVISIBILITY desperately, like Yahoo has. It has to be one of the most gaping holes in the chat space, and makes it difficult to log on to get some work done without interruptions.


Torleys of the multiverse have officially hopped on this bandwagon now! What especially caught me about what you said, Travis, is the key phrase "gaping holes". YES.

CHAT INVISIBILITY plz!

(Also known as "Show Me As Offline" I thinks.)

It's a straightforward, practical feature. There are times in SL when I LURVE to talk. Lots of times, infact! But what about diversity... what about when I just want to sit on a park bench and watch sunrises and sunsets without so many keystrokes. I don't wish to be rude to anyone by carrying on a conversation halfhearted either. I'd rather have a good time for talking! :D
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Musicteacher Rampal
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 824
10-06-2005 12:48
Can a person who writes a proposal delete the proposal returning the votes to the rightful owners? If so this should be done and a new proposal written that states "Chat invisiblity" or "ignore list" or something like that. Personally It might be nice to be able to block certain people such as you might with MSN chat, etc. That way you can escape their incessant IM-ing without the insult percieved from deleting their card. Then you would appear offline to anyone you wanted to block and online to people you want to be able to find you. Also include the all-inclusive offline for people doing searches, and maybe with an option to let chosen individuals see you log in.

The chat invisibility sounds good, the origional proposal does not!
Travis Lambert
White dog, red collar
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,819
10-06-2005 13:21
I don't believe they can, nor edit the text once its been posted.

Which sucks, of course. Until this proposal is either updated or removed, its going to be damn hard to gain momentum on a new proposal.

I just wish Linden actually read these notes.
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The Shelter

The Shelter is a non-profit recreation center for new residents, and supporters of new residents. Our goal is to provide a positive & supportive social environment for those looking for one in our overwhelming world.
Torley Linden
Enlightenment!
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 16,530
10-30-2005 23:12
Thread-tunnelled to Jessica Ingman's thread on the same topic.
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