Invisible (Proposal)

I don't know about anyone else but if this feature is approved, it will ruin the game for me. One thing I love about SL is to go shopping and trying on clothes. As a female and speaking for many others, if I feel that I cannot dress in private what's the point. Even tho I realize there could be someone watching such as the system administration, I don't like the idea of knowing a pervert is standing beside me when I am dressing or having a quite moment with my partner. My actions are based on the mimi-map and who is around me. My privacy rights are at stake in this proposal to allow invisibility. I hope you will make the right decision.

i believe that any implimentation of this would mean that you could make yourself un-trackable (appear as being offline) by people with you on their friend list, so you could avoid getting pestered while working on something important or having a private conversation with someone. I don't believe it would make your green dot dissappear, as those dots are anonymous anyway, and just represent "someone nearby". No reason to hide your green dot...i doubt anyone's going to specifically track you down using that anyway

That's right, it's not a visual thing, it's a contact list feature.

Wanted to bring this issue back to the top to get the point across. I see the proposal is still under consideration.

If implemented, it would still be a contact list feature. It wouldn't be invisible peeping tom avatars, nor even the absence of green dots on the map. It would be users not showing up as online in the contact lists, or in the Find menu.

If we're talking about proposition 52, it specifically mentions avatars removing their green dots from the map at will. Which I think is a terrible idea. If I could put my votes AGAINST a proposal, at least half of them would be here.

I fully agree. Please, no peeping toms in SL. We aren't allowed a decent amount of privacy anyway.

The only way I would agree on that feature is to be able to set "no-invisible" parcels. Avatars set to "invisible" would be visible on those parcels. This would not be a best solution, but a compromise, if people really, really want to be "invisible at will".

Actually, I'd prefer the other extreme - having parcels where you wouldn't be able to see (or listen) through walls! Now that would be awesome!

Are you nay sayer's really not getting the point? The avatars would be visible, the only thing that would be effected is the MAP.

Understand totally the point that it will not be visible on the Map.

Firstly, all avatars would be visible (i.e. if the person has "invisible" mode on, but standing infront of you, you would see them, but they would appear Offline in find/friends/callingcards/etc.).

Theres pros and cons about the map thing.

Pro:
- No one can track you or your green dot and "drop in" to see what the green dot is doing.

- Stalkers have a harder time finding you since they can't find the dot.

Con:
- You could potentialy not see someone following you.

- You could not tell if anyone was at a location.

Another issue with the whole dot thing is, if you mouse over a sim on the map, or are in a sim, should it show how many people are in the sim, counting invisible people, or not?

For example, lets say there was an event, and I want to see if the sim it is in is full yet or not. So I mouse over the sim, and it shows me how many people are in it. Now, if it shows me how many people counting invisible people are in it, then its not an issue, but, I know that someone is invisible in that sim (i.e. if I was watching someones house and waiting for the sim count to say 1 user). If it Doesn't show invisible people, then I try to enter the sim, I get the full message, begin confusion.

If, the invisible dot applys only to the Mini-Map, I could counter-act that by looking at the big map. Or, I could become confused as to why the world map shows x people, but my mini-map does not.

Even if it were a per-parcel setting, the above confusion could still happen. You could have it say (Morris, 3 Users, 2 Invisible), but then if I were to stalk someone, and I know what sim they frequent, what hours, and if they were the only one in it at that time, I could use that against them.

Every feature has a dark side too it though (well almost). The likely hood of the above situation could outweight the benefits of the lowered number of people randomly chasing green dots to say "hello" (which is annoying and happens all too frequently, but if we had better land tools, would this be an issue? Perhaps this isn't the best solution to this problem?).

So while theres a negative possibility of the feature, there is also some positive.

Regardless of the whole green-dot issue, I myself would love an Invisible mode that at the very least would allow you to appear Offline to contacts and the Find window.

Yes indeed. Unlikely as it may seem, people actually can fully comprehend the situation and still disagree with you. Being able to go invisible on the map strikes me as a terrible idea. It's not so bad if it's only on your own land, but untrackable people flying around everywhere? Ugh. Personally I'd be wearing a radar constantly if this went into effect.

Hmm, this is what I read at the proposal under vote:

Prop: 52
Name: Invisible
Category: miscellaneous
Subcategory: other
Author: Erzulie Lioncourt
Prop Date: 2005-04-13

Feature Detail
allow avatars to be invisible when they want and even just to certain players which would also remove the green dot from the map allowing more privacy

---

Clear as mud to me.

So where exactly is it stated that it's ONLY in the MAP? "Allow AVATARS to be invisible when they want" sounds pretty unambiguous to me. The "green dot" disappearing on the map is just a side-effect.

I'm sorry if I get confused with sentences without punctuation. English is only my third language, I hope I'm allowed a certain leeway when having a bit of a difficulty to understand the wording properly.

Unless Erzulie clarifies the interpretation of the proposal to me, I'll side with the naysayers.

I am for the ability to login under a cloak of invisibility and to set ourselves to invisible, including setting these options to individuals. And, yes, I mean as far as seeing if we are online via a search of calling card.. not as in prancing around unseen. *grin* There are times when we all just need or desire a bit of quiet time.

As far as the green dots go on the map. I rely heavily on the dots. I would prefer they remain as is! Altho, I do admit that I would like the ability to make my dot invisible when I am on my own land. Anywhere other than that, I could care less if my dot shows or not. I believe the numbers show when we cursor over the sim needs to remain unchanged, for obvious reasons.

Anjelle, I guess I understand your point. Like yourself, sometimes I tire from logging in, trying to work on something which will need my focused attention for a few hours, and immediately get half a dozen IM requests from my good friends. I'd like to have an "IM invisible mode" (so that you don't show up on other people's IM list), like most messenging systems have. Because some people get angry and grumpy if I set myself to "busy mode" - they think I'm ignoring them for some reason or so, and think it's a lack of politeness. So, an "IM invisible mode" is ok. I believe that some Lindens have this setting available on their user interfaces.

I could accept your green dot also disappearing from the map - or better, when on "IM invisibility mode", you wouldn't be able to be tracked down through the Profile | Map option (since green dots are anonymous), as long as the dots appeared on the mini-map as well.

Now, this is definitely not the same thing as being invisible in-world (ie. your avatar not being there)!

A similar, but dangerous, idea are things like being able to change your own avatar's name, or being able to create objects/textures/anims with any other avatar's name but your own, or even being able to make your name invisible (ie. other people could see you, but not know who you are). This - and overall invisibility - is just giving griefers opportunity and weapons. I'm completely against it, unless someone provides me with a careful and detailed explanation why and in which cases this is actually useful.

"Just because it's cool" or "just because ***I*** want it" are simply not good enough.

Although I would certainly compromise on the possibility of being able to set your land parcel to allow invisibility, and that you got a pop-up appearing on your screen telling you: "Warning! You're entering a zone where avatars may be invisible!". That would be acceptable - people could have their fun on specific, well-labed areas of SL, which I would carefully avoid.

How would you handle the problem of Avatar count in a sim if green dots can be invisible (on or off your own land)?

I think the spirit of what is being asked for, is something to the effect of:

"Allow us to toggle on some temporary privacy from our friends we've exchanged calling cards/friends with, and allow us to toggle our online status to "offline".

Removing the "green dot" is unneccesary - so is any "hiding" of the actual AV. The purpose being: If you want to have some privacy at times - your friends wont see you online, and can't hunt you down with your calling card until *you* decide its ok.

It happens to me - I log on, and *wham* I'm hit with IM's before everything has even finished loading Sure would be nice if I was "invisible" until I was ready to be social

(By Invisible - I mean a "Yahoo" kind of invisible. Offline for chat - but still appearing in world.)

Possibly it would be worthwhile to re-word the proposal to make it more clear.

Yes.

With the introduction of the Friends list, I'd love to see more options simular to YIM, with the ability to setup groups, and to also appear offline/online to select individuals/groups. So I could be offline to everyone in this group, but not that. Or I could be offline to everyone but this person. Or offline only for this person. Etc.

(Friend Groups not to be confused with Group Groups.)

The number of avatars in a sim can always be seen on the statistics popup (Alt-Shift-1 or whatever the new command is, can't remember it ). The number of green dots is irrelevant Thus, you can always look at that popup and see if there are too many avatars on the same sim when holding an event...

I think the whole proposition is offensive.

The wonderful thing about SL is the freedom it allows. Agree so far? So you are free to form friendships, alter your appearance, behaviour and so-on with less fear of criticism than you might expect in RL. Why? Because in RL, everyone is watching - your friends, your family, your colleagues - let's face it, SL is a release. Less criticism, less accountabilty.

So why then do we feel the need to have EVEN LESS accountabilty?

You are already screened from RL. Why on earth do you want to be screened from being screened? Why do you want to live your secret life in secret? And for people who are already enjoying their second life, away from the prying eye of friends, family and colleagues, why should they now fear invisible eyes and ears all over again.

Vote NO.

Isn't it enough to have a second life? Why do you need a third?

Gwyneth, the problem is it becomes conflicting to the user, also it could be mis-interpreted as a bug, as well as you could still really see that there is an avatar in there by the avatar count when their green dot shows up invisible, while you wouldn't know where they are, you'd know they're there.

Dan, so, should Instant Messengers also lose this function? And Email, one of the oldest communication devices on the internet, allow you to be "invisible", should this also be changed? The whole issue is that some people like to enjoy things without being pestered, is it so wrong to ask for this?

I think people who wont leave you alone to get on with your Second Life in the way you want to is offensive, but they never learn. I think people that are so blinkered they can't see why an idea might be useful to people other than themselves and deride it and people who would want it are offensive. But that's just me.

Believe it or not, not everyone wants to socialize with everyone all the time. Sometimes, you want a little privacy. When people can get it through their thick skulls that being 700m in the air with a security script around you means 'fuck off', rather than 'see if you can get here anyway!' or 'IM me and whine about not being able to get here!' then we can do away with proposals for features like this.

Until that time, which I feel will come shortly after Hell freezes over, given the kind of assholes in Second Life, vote yes!

To clarify, this is a feature I'd want more than any other in Second Life. Fuck Havok2, you can keep it... but the chance of a little privacy when you want it would be wonderful!

Hey, I'm more gregarious than a... well, whatever... but even I want to roam in a Show Offline mode sometimes. That extra bit of variety in my Second Life! Sometimes I just like to kick back and walk the countryside quietly before heading to the next party.

Creepy peeping toms and harassers and those violating CS have no place using a legitimate feature as a tool anyway, and are subject to the Abuse Reports heading their way.

(Except for me, when I stalk alternate reality versions of myself. )

I cannot think of a single sincere reason to be ONliine and INvisible.

Vote NO.

i was spies on with a "snoopy script" recently. and i was talking about something personal w/ afriend. i didnt have "return items" on and i realized that there were 3 items on my land not owned by me...but when i set return to on...those 3 items were sent back to the avatars, my only regret is that i didnt write down their names.

Exactly what I was asking for was more privacy in game. If you have played TSO u may be familiar with having a choice on whether or not you are showed as online/offline. As far as invisible, I do not mean the avi being invisible....should have worded it differently. I simply meant that it would be nice to not show your dot on the map if u do not want it shown. Do not sit and say that u cant be tracked that way. I know for a fact that if you know the map well enough and u know the location on the map of someones property all u have to do is look to see if there is a dot on that spot and then if you want to get to that person bad enough u can TP to it to see who it is. Chances are great that its obviously the person who the property belongs to. I dont think it is anyones business that I am at home and how many ppl are on my property. If i want to be shown offline to the list and to my friends I should have that option. This is why ppl have alts to get away from all the wonderful buzzzzzing IM's that u have to deal with when you are busy.....oh and lets not forget u'r rude friends who like to TP directly to you without asking first