What has ruined my SL thusfar

Grim: please explain to me how my checking a box that didnt allow other peoples scripts to act on my avatar unless I was on THEIR property would effect ANYTHING else in SL?

I am seriously confused as to how my NOT being a viable target for someones script unless I am on their property would affect any other aspect of SL.

Bottom line. I should just be able to ignore someone and it TRULY be an ignore. Ignore their presence, sounds, scripts, chats, etc.
I understand that one of the values of SL is owning property, and if I am on your property, I have given implied consent for you to interact with me on the terms of your property. However, if I am NOT on your land, why am I still subjected to the terms of your property? The terms of what someone else deems socially acceptable, such as shooting them, killing them, blasting them off the sim, etc.

What you are implying is that my idea would screw up the entire world of SL just to FIX the problem I have with it. When in reality, it would take away the very tools that these children use to annoy the crap out of people. Sure, you would be annoyed ONCE by someone, but NEVER again by that person. POOF! Gone! Finito! Just put them AND their toys on IGNORE when on land that isnt theirs.

So, seriously, explain to me how removing myself as a target on NON private property screws up ANYTHING else in SL?
I apparently dont understand something vital to SL or LSL, so help me out here.

OK, first of all there is a huge difference in "non-private" land and "their" land. It is relatively common to find locations where the land is owned by one individual, but one (or more) builds on the land are owned by other people.

For instance, Ama had a gambling station in Aqua, where he owned the station, but anyone could "rent" a space to place their own game there. If I put a game there, and the script couldn't interact with you, but you could interact with the game, there is great potential for you to be able to crash my script at-will. You're not really stealing money from me, but then again, you are. The game would shut down and be unplayable by ANYONE until I managed to log back in and reset it.

There was a time when the Gassy Cat Workshop was a split property. Chris O owned the land, but Kohne Kato owned the building. This would have broken Kohne's ability to to have scripted interaction with your av while you were in her shop.

for combat sims (currently there's only one, but I'm hopeful), this would give you the ability to basically be invulnerable to other people's weapons, but since they're all participating "fairly" in the combat, your weapons would be able to kill/push them.

And I'm sure that if I were in a griefing mood, I could come up with several other ways that this could be exploited just as badly as the current situation is.

Solving your personal problem by creating personal problems for other people isn't really a solution. It's a workaround, and a very bad one, at that.

A question about llPushObject:

What if it only worked on land that you owned (or had permissions to once group land ownership is in), on land marked unsafe by the owner, or in unsafe sims?

This would allow its general use on unsafe sims and allow land owners to make areas where they can smack each other around.

What do you guys think?

but smacking eachother around is so fun when you all want to, and it would be hard to show this feature to new people, you would have to drag them to your land. Battling is something poeple would be interested in and most of them don't even know you can have battles and kill eachother.

O, i know! Maybe we should have a very small outlands type battle zone in the welcome area and have like a big gate over it or something. Once you enter this small area you can fight anyone and when trial members die they won't go far cause they get teleported back to the welcome area.

Grim:
You bring up 2 examples that both require private property.
If the land is set to scripts allowed and I go there, then when the vending machine sells me a t-shirt it is because I have agreed to the terms of the property.
One persons property, another persons script.

The bogus beat each other up sims have the same settings and then Kill too... hence I dont go there.

Being that you are a programmer, perhaps you require a design document in order to fulfill the answer to the question

__________________________
Can you come up with one
1. VIABLE reason
2. not allowing peoples scripts
3. to interact with my avatar
4. outside of privately held property
4. is ruining SL?
__________________________
Sticking with those parameters, please... enlighten me!


Cory:
You OBVIOUSLY get my COMPLETE point!
And while I would much prefer to just be able to completely IGNORE some of these infantile people... I will take your offer and run with it! Hook Me Up Already!

and therein lies the issue at hand...
"When you all want to"

I dont want to.
And when I am ready and "want to", I would gladly travel to someplace that I "could".

I'm late to the discussion, and not a scriptor (yet), but wouldn't there be some value in separating ordinary object from avatars in the scripting language? This way some of the limitations being imposed on scripts would be more specific to the actions that we intend to prevent. So rather than disable llPushObject completely, you would only disable its ability to push an avatar (and any attachments).

Along the same lines, should there be (or are there) distinctions between attached objects and objects we sit on? I can imagine wanting to prevent certain things from acting on my attached objects, but those same things might knock me off my seat. As far as I know, sitting on an object is like attaching it though, except that multiple people can sit on the same object.

Right now the current dumbass vogue is thwacking people out of the welcome area. Most of the solutions to this proposed in this thread would fix this, and also have wide-reaching effects. But what happens when the next dumbass fad hits? "Fix" that too?

Soon you would not be able to do anything in SL but stand around chatting (only with people you know, because, you know, someone could grief you in chat). If I want IRC with pretty graphics and a monthly subscription fee, I know where to find it.

Technical solutions to social problems rarely work, and usually the cure is worse than the disease.

If someone is harassing you or others, file an abuse report. If people don't know how to behave, they need to be banned or censured, we don't need to make the world "safe" for everyone everywhere.

That said, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to make the welcome area "no outside scripts"

This is my opinion

yes, thats why its not a good idea to get rid of it altogether, i would miss it.

Please please please DO NOT nerf llPushObject!! Or any LSL function. This is what I was getting at earlier. Just because a few are being griefers doesn't mean it should ruin everyone's experience by nerfing LSL. Can you imagine what projects, ideas, or innovations would be dumped into the trash if changes are made?
One example, Alien abduction spaceship. It just wouldn't work anymore.

I somewhat agree with that. On the other hand, what other solutions are there? In another thread where I advocated the use of negative ratings people responded that they are "against the use of peer pressure" to try and affect other people's behavior.

For some people the prescription: "lets all learn to live together" means mutual cooperation on things such as this, but for other it boils down to nothing less than anarchy. I would MUCH rather have technical solutions, even if they end up making LSL much more complex. Technical solutions don't require a Linden employee to be in-world 24 hours a day to play judge, jury and executioner. So far I can't see where any of the limitations put on scripting or flying have had any serious negative impact.

In the real world someone can fire a canon at my house and demolish it. I have to go to the law and the courts to get relief. But in SL, we already have numerous restrictions on what we can do to one another. Most of the restrictions place very little burden on us, or on scripting. I'm not sure that a bit of tinkering around the edges of those restrictions will do any harm either.

Ultimately, the BEST solution to social problems is to convince "aggressors" to cease their activities voluntarily. Unfortunately to some of these people, the mere act of asking them to stop their aggression is viewed by them as a threat, and in their minds that gives them the right to continue, if not increase their aggressive behavior. So while technical solutions to social problems rarely work, I'm afraid that social solutions to social problems may have an even lower success rate.

Again, I find points of agreement on both sides of this. I've never been fortunate enough to be abducted by aliens. I'm sure I wouldn't particularly mind. On the other hand, suppose the implementor of that had an unusual collection of sensibilities about such things and programmed the Alien craft to follow ME around whenever I was in world and abduct me repeatedly? I suspect I'd get a bit tired of it. In such a case I'd much rather have a technical way to "opt-out" of that activity than to have to seek the help of a "systems administrator".

A simple check-box (defaulted off) could give anyone who wanted the chance to be just left alone if they chose to be. We have the opportunity with 3D-VR to actually build elements of our common laws right into the interface. If someone in SL choses not to have their avatar abducted, shot out of a canon or spray painted blue, shouldn't that be their decision, even if it means they might miss out on something that everyone else views as fun?

Well in the case of an object following you, that doesn't have to do anything with llPushObject. Should we also remove the ability to use llMoveToTarget also? I mean, you can't remove the functionality of everything just because it bothers someone. There are current scripts and projects that haven't even been thought up yet that would be affected by those changes.

I am all for some type of solution without affecting LSL. An easy solution would be to have a switch to make your AV phantom and non-physics. But I am against that also.

Let's say there's an event where whoever finishes the maze first wins. Well, if that flag were to be in place, the AV can certainly cheat. Or let's say you created a building with a lockable door. With the phantom switch, that door is useless. There would be many examples where more exploits would take place.

As for your example on someone making an object that constantly abducts and follows an AV; well that is a perfect example of harrassment. File a report and hope it's taken care of.

Again, best way is for the community & Linden's to make sure harrassment is not tolerated. Period. Not sure how this would be implemented. Maybe a harsher suspension for harassment cases. Cash penalty. Anything that would deter those who want to grief.

I am also a strong advocate against nerfing LSL. We have already had one large nerf in the form in restricting rezing of locked objects. The only good thing about that is taht a real solution is in the works and this is temporary... (Right Pheonix?)

If we want SL to be more than just another Sims Online, we have to embrace the scripting language and make it even more powerful. Not strip it down until you can not do anything useful.

As for involentarily being affected by scripts, I think what would be good is to turn off scripts for a certain person, not turn off scripts affecting you for everyone. Because you really dont know what you would be missing.

And lots of actions ask you for permission I expect beign teleported would ask you for permission first. Turning off scipts affecting you will NOT stop people from trapping you in a bubble. You do not even need a script for that.

A system akin to the ratings system might be warrented, where too many bad votes takes away the persons scripting ability for a few hours or days. This would not only protect you, but entice the person himself to change and not be abusive. Of course that can be abused too.

In summary:
o DO NOT nerf LSL please! I did not sign up to play The Sims. I signed up to script amazing things for your enjoyment
o Personal toggles for other people's scripts might be a good thing, but I'm inclined to frown on it.

I dont understand why this conversation got so heated. Everything that can be used to grief in LSL can be counteracted by another script in LSL. (ex. The llPushObject could be ineffective if the item is nonphysical, or in an avitar's case, has an object that is move2targeting (which is available FREELY in the Script Library btw).

Nerfing, or dumbing down, the scripting language would be the stupidest, least thought out solution to this problem. We dont need any more limits in LSL then we already have.

Individually disabling the effects of scripts on a person would be really bad too, for the reasons given by Madox and the other scripters whove responded here. Ideas that would have made SL life alot eiasier/more interesting/fun would be completely out the window.

And if you are the only one that wants it to work, that could be a problem, yes. However, on your land, I got no problem with it.

Which is why I advocate a POWERFUL ignore system.
I click IGNORE, and the problem ceases to exist.
Everyone else can deal with it as THEY choose.

Thats all Im asking for too.

I detect no heated discussion here Christopher.



Uh huh. However, why should I be forced to lock myself into a particular spot until some fetus decides TRYING to knock me around and getting nowhere is not fun anymore?



I am not asking for ANYTHING that would change LSL.
I am however asking for the ability to play as bland of a version of SL as *I* choose. Not the SuperCoolio Whackity Fun that someone ELSE deems fun.



However, if thats how I choose to enjoy my 15 bucks a month... why shouldnt I be able to?

I find this WHOLE discussion completely amazing!

Here you have a group of talented scripters. These people make some really AMAZING things!
But I find it confusing how so many talented people can somehow convalute my asking for scripts to NOT have any affect on ME, is in ANY way dorking around with the power or capabilities of LSL? I said ME! Not everyone... just the people that CHOOSE this option.

I see all kinds of tangents that go off the deep end with the "possibilities" and "eventualities" of how this could potentially screw up LSL. And yet... not ONE of you has come up with a viable reason as to how this option I ask for would in ANY way impact your ability to continue creating whatever it is you want to create. But it seems the mere fact that I ask for an option to NOT allow scripts to affect me has caused some kneejerk reaction from a lot of, who for some reason, have missed the entire point. I have stated, restated, reworded, clarified, and tried anything I could possibly do to get the point across as clearly as possible to no avail.

Im tired of thinking AND talking about it.
It seems to me, that if I bother to read every single word of other peoples posts in an effort to glean their true intentions, the least that someone could do is make sure they understand mine before they yammer on and on about PLEASE DONT NERF X!

Simply because turning off the effects of someone's scripts won't magically turn off griefing caused by players. Someone can still create a huge 10x10x10 block and move it on your head. Or can fly into you repeatedly. That has nothing to do with scripts. Your solution doesn't help the problem. It just would create more development time for a 'fix' that could easily be worked around.

EDIT: more stuff

This all reminds me of banning of switch blades. Switch blades were banned because they were known as a tool gangs used to kill each other. Banning didn't help the problem. It's the people who were doing the killing, not the switchblade.

Chris, I am currently working on something that would allow you to move yet still prevent llPushObject() from affecting you... ill keep everyone posted.

Again, how does this have any bearing on the question at hand? (Which by the way is in reference to peoples scripts not having any effect on me should I choose that option?)





Then get this point across to the portion of our population that wants to take away my guns.
When you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns.
Although its quite converse when you apply this theory to grief scripts.
When griefers cant negatively effect you with scripts, you take away 90% of their weaponry.

And for this I will build you MASSIVE Chocolate Chip Cookies!
Big as that monstrosity you call a domocile!

Didn't I just answer that? Let me post it again.

Simply because turning off the effects of someone's scripts won't magically turn off griefing caused by players. Someone can still create a huge 10x10x10 block and move it on your head. Or can fly into you repeatedly. That has nothing to do with scripts. Your solution doesn't help the problem. It just would create more development time for a 'fix' that could easily be worked around.



Oh man. You just don't get it. How you can you possibly 'turn off' scripts when it's just not scripts that are doing the damage? It's all linked to objects, movement, physics, etc.. There is no way you can just turn off scripts that affect you. What do you think these scripts control? Objects. So the only way none of this can affect you is by making you phantom.

Let's say you do get your wish and allow people to somehow turn scripts off that affect you. You will still get griefed no matter what. What then? Demand to remove objects? What about when they fly into you 100 times? Or someone looks at you funny? What will you demand then? I don't want this game to turn into just a chat room.