We have a responsibility

The demonstration may have begun as a response to LL's ban on gaming, but it has come to represent much more than that in my opinion.

The ban on gaming created a devastating ripple effect on SL's economy, affecting every single industry from land prices to fashion sales. It's not just about bringing gaming back, its about whether SL will continue to exist for any of us.

Land prices are less than half their value prior to the ban. I've heard so many insist this is the best thing to happen, but those values are an integral part of SL's economy. You may be able to afford cheap land at this very moment, but it will serve no purpose if SL dies.

The primary problem with the ban is that LL is allowing governmental regulations to get a foot in the door. This has far reaching implications which are, in my mind, much more serious. It opens the door to regulation of the internet. There isn't a government in the world who isn't chomping at the bit to accomplish that feat because of its incredible revenue potential.

Yes LL does have liability because of the UIGEA and most people believe that is why the ban was implemented. It is a little more complicated than that though. This is a virtual world and the things in it exist in cyberspace. It is only by virtue of the grid staying open that any of it is possible. Once the plug is pulled, SL and everything in it disappears, including EVERYTHING you obtained with real currency, whether it be land or lindens or whatever. And if it disappears you have no recourse whatsoever.

LL's liability is not tied to any RL laws because they don't apply to virtual reality. Not yet anyway. Their liability is the result of a single action on their part - the launch of the LindeX whereby they themselves encourage and facilitate the exchange of $L for USD.

If they didn't do that one thing, their liability would be zero and RL law simply would not apply to SL. There will always be activities conducted here in which individual players may have liability from their local laws such as pornography or failing to pay sales taxes, and yes gambling too among others, but individual player liability doesn't challenge the existence of the game itself or pose any danger to SL's economy.

Cue the *gasps* of all those who fear losing the ability to exchange their $L for USD.

Simple fact is that it would still be traded. SL got along fine without the LindeX before it came into existence and $L was traded for real currency quite well. There are many outlets already available and any number of players in-game willing to make trades via Paypal or Ebay. There are also third parties who regularly trade in game items, not just SL but many other games as well. They aren't prolific in SL now because it simply isn't lucrative to compete with the LindeX (LL owns the LindeX.) If the LindeX didn't exist, then third party trading would become lucrative again. It would be highly competitive.

Gaming or gambling in SL, whichever you prefer to call it, is not the only industry which stands to lose in SL because of the liability LL has from owning the LindeX. The intrusion of RL laws in a virtual reality game is a loss to everyone, because then you suddenly become subject to RL regulation no matter what you do. If you think that's a plus, then in my mind you are part of the problem because you support that philosophy.

Cue the *huffing* of the whiners who demand regulation in SL because they have been ripped off by Ginko, or that builder, or that fashion designer, or that scriptor, or that shoe shop owner, or that land seller, or that escort, or that casino owner, or any number of ripoff artists that exist both in RL and virtual worlds. We could even argue that LL has ripped off people left and right because they aren't well known for treating their customer base with anything resembling respect. (Please note, I do believe individual Lindens do their damnedest to help us - but they are ham-strung by company policy)

The fact that SL is an extension of the internet is lost on many. You have to use common sense here as you would anywhere else and unfortunately the learning curve for that is just as high as the game itself.

Basically LL's philosophy, which I agree with wholeheartedly, is to not interfere and allow us to govern ourselves. Self-governing is already done in SL in lots of ways, albeit on a very small scale. We have yet to reach a point of being able to do it on a large scale, but then the game doesn't really facilitate that, as it's difficult to disseminate information and large gatherings are fairly impossible.

We do have a philosophy as a consumer base though at least I think most of us do. We are all here for a reason. It isn't a matter of whether it's a good or bad reason, just whether we can reasonably expect to remain here based on it.

That said, it goes without saying we all have some interest in preserving the game. I think we have a responsibility to take some kind of action if we see its existence is in danger. That is my reason for protest and demonstration. It should be yours as well if you choose to become involved. Some of you don't care to, but those who do should not be subjected to ridicule or castigation.

Protests about the stability of the grid as opposed to introducing new features is a prime example of how most of us demonstrate. We want the game to work like it should. This protest (which LL responds to btw) makes the game better for all, thus ensuring we don't evacuate in droves, and it ultimately preserves the game.

I see the gaming protest as serving the same purpose because of the fear the economical fallout from the ban will result in the death of SL. You can make fun and flame all you want about "the sky is falling" but the numbers are there to support that fear. Yes, LL owns the game and can make any decision they want concerning it, but that doesn't absolve you or me of any responsibility to do or say what we can to help preserve both LL and the game. My suggestion to that end is to call for LL to ditch the LindeX. I'm not anyone special and they won't listen to me. But if I can help enough other people to understand why, they may join in and demonstrate too or perhaps offer an even better solution to what I see is a very real danger to the game. As individuals, little can be accomplished. But as a group we have considerable power to effect change as long as we are reasonable.

Although it's really convenient to buy or sell $L through the LindeX, I believe it's a mistake to have it and its existence may ultimately be the reason SL dies. LL's ownership of the LindeX gives them liability because THEY are giving $L value. If someone else was doing it, it wouldn't affect SL.

LL assumes much more liability by virtue of the LindeX, than just being subject to US Federal gaming laws. If USD wasn't involved, the gambling laws wouldn't apply to them at all. BUT . . .

It is quite possible the whole concept of LL issuing $L is completely illegal itself. Under US Federal Securities law, it could be construed as issuing an unregistered security. Because the $L is traded for USD on the LindeX, are they in fact issuing securities for USD? If so, that IS DEFINITELY illegal under federal securities law - virtual or not. Technically securities, for all intents and purposes, are virtual anyway because you just don't see actual stock certificates anymore. $L is no different because if you buy $L, basically you are hoping someone will pay more for it, or that you can exchange it for something with value, so it appears they are acting like a company issuing stock, i.e. selling virtual securities. ALL BECAUSE THEY OWN THE LINDEX.

If this is the case, it stands to reason, LL banned gaming in SL because they fear that they are facilitating an online gaming operation and can't hide behind the "we are nothing but a chat room really" argument. Not to mention they are going directly against their own TOS in which they state $L has no value. LL cannot legally sell $L and maintain an exchange, virtual or not, in their own corporation, which may be exactly why they have made a point they are only acting as agent, but in fact they are not (because they issue more $L).

An investigation by the US Department of Justice or the Attorneys General would most likely result in closure of the grid long before the issue was decided in a court action.

It doesn't really make sense to me that LL would roll over as the result of the UIGEA and create such economic hardship for themselves as well as their customer base in-world. Yes, if the economy in SL suffers, so does LL. The UIGEA in its current form has no teeth really and LL could easily position themselves for protection from it. The question is why wouldn't they want to?


I invite anyone to read the securities laws themselves here:
http://www.sec.gov.

I hope to invite discussion as well as pertinent comment, not flames.
Discussion and sharing information with others is important. My friend Ramo told me about the unregistered securities issue, and after reading the law myself I agree.

There are links to the UIGEA as well as the Barney Frank bill being introduced this year in a couple of other posts found here:
post #s 1 and 32,
/341/61/200636/6.html

Many other comments in that thread include interesting links as well.

Most assume that internet gambling is illegal, but there is no federal law, as yet anyway, that outlaws it. The UIGEA just makes it illegal to fund it with USD. The Barney Frank bill intends to correct that and place additional restrictions on the gaming industry. If you do even a little reading on these issues, it's a real eye-opener on how deceptive the politicians are at getting laws passed and how the government is taking steps towards regulating the internet.

If SL continued to allow gambling, CC companies would inform their clients that they can not be used to pay LL due to the US law prohibiting such. PayPal has this as well and is their policy world-wide, I believe.

No payment to LL, no SL at all.

As for the economy collapsing......my buisness is doing well. Aside from a lowering in land prices (which were getting out of hand anyway and were just begging for a reson to collaps in on themselves), I've not seen any other impact.

The trading values of the L$ remain constant, so I fail to see the "big scare".

*points up*
The sky is there there Chicken Little.
~Jessy

no economy collapse for me either. SL's still here.

as one who never really went to casinos, i fail to see your point. i do not see the connection between gambling and the SL economy. i'm still doin steady buisness, as well as many others. the only ones feelign the crunch(kind of) are those businesses that set up shop near casinos, and will prolly enjoy more traffic due to thier closure. less lag, yanno.

for those who did put all thier cash into casinos, i feel for you. nows the time to check your creativity level. build a better mousetrap so to speak. but do put the "failing" of the SL economy on the banning of gambling. it is summer, and many people do go away for vacations and what not. once school is back in session, and everyone is back in the old work cubicles, etc; Sl will begin to see an upswing in the economy.

Oh good, I was worried that we didn't have enough threads complaining about the gambling ban. And a "this will be the end of SL" reference to sweeten the deal!

Question 1: Do you dispute that LL is a business that owns SL?

Question 2: Do you dispute that LL as a business has the right to set policies that they feel best serve their goals?

Question 3: Do you believe that LL made this decision lightly without extensive consultation with their legal counsel?

You put so much thought into this argument, and yet you fail to see the simple facts. SL belongs to LL, and they have made what they feel is the best decision to ensure its continued existence.

Ava,

That's too simple and logical. Could you please make that more complex and chaotic or those who read the forums will never understand that.

*snickers*
~Jessy

no facts please...confuses teh issues n stuff.......

Was there any need, after posting this longish ... thingie in three different threads already, to use it to open up a fourth one?

ok its to hot and my brain is fried can someone write up some cliff notes for the book above please

This has been discussed numerous times already (No that that should stop us). The OP and her supporters have done a good job of laying out their arguments, giving the necessary links, and have done a pretty good job of pleading their case. But I still don't buy it, and never will. I'm sorry. IN MY OPINION, this isn't about freedoms or taking away joy, or encroachment by the One Government that allegedly is hell bent on destroying SL. This is about a group of people who had a business, made money. but now have been told they can't anymore, in an admittedly badly handled way. They won't accept that and believe they can convince people to see things their way, which isn't going to happen unfortunately. I'm truly sorry their SL experience has been affected by this, and I can't say I wouldn't feel the same if mine was. But it hasn't

According the Lindex Market Data page the value of the $L is very consistent. If the economy was suffering the value of the $L would get worst. . Banning gaming has yet to make the economy worst. The lower land prices are simply because of the large bulk of land casino owners want to get rid of being they are not creative enough to adapt to something else. Land prices will stabilize again.

The people that made the Casinos should have been well aware of US laws. If they were not then they have no business running a business to begin with. If they did know the laws and rejected them then that is their own dumb ass fault and still have no business running a business.

Sorry no sympathy.

And just to be safe I am invoking Godwin's Law, IBTL, and PENGUIN.

And just to be safe I am invoking Godwin's Law, IBTL, and PENGUIN.

passes Arua a Cherry Icee...and points to the 2dozen threads already in progress regarding the banning of gambling and how it effects the SL economy.

What about rabbits?

Ooohhh I LOVE Cherry Icees...

Cliff Notes: Another upset Resident over the loss of "Wagering" using poorly researched and/or imagined data to try to spark a true economic collapse due to the imagined fear of one.

~Jessy

There is no such thing as a virtual reality. There is a simulated reality that exisits within the confines of the reality we all exist within. Nothing that goes on online is truly divorced from real world consequences. To try to argue otherwise is foolish and is a sure fire route to RL ruin. SL is subject to RL laws, LL is subject to RL laws, all the residents of SL are subject to RL laws. There is nothing virtual here.

LL did what they did because they had to to protect themselves and us from the RL consequences of RL laws.

Gambling is gone from SL, get over it and find something else to take its place.

These threads wouldn't be so bad if they weren't a novel every time and were titled with something honest like "Here's why gambling should be back."

sets up a Icee Stand and starts selling Icees n scratch cards

Do you have coconut?

Cliff Notes on the Cliff Notes: ZZZZzzzzzzzzz......

I don't agree withe the Virtual Reality argument. SL isn't Virtual reality, it SIMULATION. The very places we go to and live in are called SIMS. What the Op and others percieve SL to be hasn't happened yet.

Can I have a strawberry one please?

Popcorn anyone?

we have coconut, coke cherry coke, rootbeer, raspberry, and spam.

makes up a coconut one for Brenda! one strawberry for Conan!

Get over it.
Gambling in SL is done
It’s not coming back anytime soon
You’re just wasting electrons.

I am glad it’s gone
It was an eyesore
It was a major cause and customer of ad farms
It increases scams from residents who were desperate for more money to gamble with.
Most of the money was a sink from the economy and did little to help the creators and merchants.
It encouraged camping
It gamed the traffic system
It killed dwell
It is a rip off
It was a scam
It’s immoral
Unregulated, it’s illegal, in most Countries.
It’s a foolish waste of money
It’s addictive.
It eats the souls of babies and kills kittens.

I am tired of hearing about it.

Get over it.
So my question is “when are you going to get a SL?”