Property Rights vs. Land Harassment and Coercion

ok...if you want an advertiser to stop advertising..they have to look at the entire amount of money they have invested to create their ad network...unless you want them to sell their networked ad system to someone else...so they can set it up...?...I assume not, since your aim is to reduce the number of ads in world.

...so their cost will include the value of the land...the price they paid for the ad system, the time invested in finding all the ad parcels that are scattered across SL...and they will also have other costs, at the very least, they will have to refund the monies paid to them for the ads they will be taking down, right?...they have contracts to display those ads...so..if you expect them to close their businesses...do you also expect them to take a loss on all of that?...and since the only asset they can recover any investment from is the land...figure it out...

surely you dont expect them to close their businesses for your benefit, take a loss on the contracts they have, take a loss on the cost of the ad system, AND then sell the land for less than they paid...?

Oh, I see.

You sell ad networks not land.

That is something completely different.

And for note: I don't really care what you do, but I do hate Ad Farms (I don't own land, never plan to, have no need, and could probably get some for free if I really really needed it).

Also, I'll bet you L$10,000 that I make more money than you do with less work, and that even if you do actually make more that I could in theory make more money than I do (which would amount to more than your income) if I felt like it.

I somehow doubt your ascertion...since you dont seem to have even a simple understanding of the liquidation cost of closing an advertising business...but if that makes you feel better...that's fine...

I'm going to address a few things here. Because I think your original complaint IS completely baseless.

Is the following comment you made your "proof" that you are the victim of organized griefing by a group?



So because one person who does this is wearing a tag from a particular group, the whole group must be out to get you? Get a friggin grip.



The group I am quite certain you're referring to, which just happens to have approx. 220 members, does NOT advocate land griefing in the manner you describe. I'm a member too, and I've never heard of any organized efforts to do any such thing. I wouldn't doubt that certain members of the group may take the law into their own hands, so to speak, but that doesn't mean the group is advocating those tactics.

Basically, I am now completely convinced your entire complaint was a load of BS. You're only making yourself look bad here.

Then I will suggest you do something...go and look at the ad blockers...note that the owners of the blockers are all members of the group, and that most of them had their group tag on when placing the blockers...since that is the group the object is "set" to...

and when I saw one of their members placing the blockers...I addressed it to the owner of the group, asking him if it was his policy...he didnt admit nor deny, he merely asked who was doing it....whereupon the instances of the ad blockers in world increased.

and as for them "being out to get me"..I never stated that...I said they were targeting advertisers...which seems to be true...the individual that was placing the blockers even stated that she intended to place them on other's lands, because she was told she could do so with impunity...that the lindens would not do anything about it...

What a hot topic. Even Sara Nerd weighed in. I wonder where the OP lives. Does he have a lovely ad farm on his property or within view?

I think that the real problem is that SL is a different experience for each person. Most come here to enjoy a less stressed existence from RL, but some can't leave behind the same outlook that has caused humanity to rape the planet and conduct war through the ages.

In RL there are a lot more laws and social mores to address these problems. SL is a frontier where these solutions do not exist.

Ethically the OP is in the wrong, so in the abscence of any real justice, we will have to depend on vigilantees to eliminate the problem, and possibly even start a new war. It will not be the first in the history of SL.

Power to the people.

Its still the OP's land...and people covering their land with prims is completely different from just puttign up a wall blocking view of the ad.

In the case of the OP and people blocking her land.. I'm for the OP, wrong or right, her land is being encroached on.

We all know damn well that the owner of this groups policy has always been to educate in a friendly non threatening manner. I wish I had his patience with people who destroy our mainland for fast profit unethically at the cost of the residents who this is placed up beside. He is working to make sl a better place and help our residents protect there land. It's dirty to try and smear his name when all he is trying to do is help others. You need to stop stereo typing this group and come out against the individuals who do this or whatever it is you have issues with. If I put a giant tree up beside your ads because I'm pissed you just destroyed the value and view of the nice new waterfront I recently purchased, thats my doing, Not the groups. Not everyone has the ability to fight back with what you do to them by buying your ad spam hell at inflated prices for your "business expense". Some people have no option but to block the crap or look at it forever.

(I really hope were all talking about the same group lol)

I still make more L$ than you do.

And just because you have a business you can't charge more for the land.
Land value has nothing to do with the business (or lack there of) on the land now.

Yes that is the plan Banking. Until Mr. OP stops taking 16M plots and placing advertising all over it - this group will engage in civil disobedience. Linden Lab can chime in anytime they want.

Give up on emphasizing that, he refuses to acknowledge it! Plus, he also makes dingi from selling the same script package that he claims is the reason to inflate the land prices in the first place!

Marketing people have a 'special' kind of brain...

It seems that the bottom line question is, under what circumstances does one individual or group have the right to pressure (or harass) another individual or group to use or not use their own land how they want to? Is "being annoyed" really enough? If that's the case, there are a lot of things that other people do that annoy me, in SL as well as RL, and would bet it's the same with everyone else. But if that's the criteria we choose, then that makes for an entirely different society, and one I'm not sure I'd care to live in.

Then the OP can teleport me in everytime and I will add my ARs to theirs. Block the ads, but don't encroach on others land.

This type of "annoyance" is not one you can walk away from, ban, or ignore. This type of annoyance makes land you paid dearly for worth crap. It takes a nice sim and ruins it for the residents of that sim. What you saying is that you "care to live" in a place where spam dealers like this extort residents. Little annoyances people can brush off and avoid. This type of land dealing is just plain unethical and a very bad business practice and thats why most people steer clear of it. The people in this business want nothing more than to get a fast buck with no concern about the way they are doing it or how it effects others.

I can sympathise with both sides of this argument. I want everyone to be able to use their land as they want while not impinging on their fellow residents enjoyment of their own land. These are rights that are being argued in real life, today, as well as here on SL.

I once owned some land on which I built a lovely park with waterfalls... I built it for everyone to enjoy just visitting and relaxing. That was my choice and I paid my rent. Eventually, someone built a 50 meter brick wall at the end of my property as part of a mall they were building. The lovely view of the sunset was destroyed and what was a nice, rural area became rather claustrophobic... and it's no ones "fault" but my own.

I did not talk with my fellow land owners, I didn't know them, we didn't discuss goals and themes and what we would like for the sim. You see, the defense against abusive advertisers (and I'm not sure this is one, since I don't know him) is a strong community who likes living there and doesn't want to sell their land. Don't cut out your neighbors. Don't declare "this is my land" and ignore everyone else. Make your sim a place you all want to live... and support each others endevors. In my opinion this is the best way to keep the land you own enjoyable.

For myself, my park has since been sold.. much to my dissapointment because it was the first land I bought when I first got onto SL. Since then, a friend and I have bought a Sim of our own named Season's Alter where I can indulge in my love of nature. Because we own our own islands we can build them the way we want without worrying about things that ruin our enjoyment of our land. We earn money to support our parkland by renting out land on two other servers we bought, Yule and Samhain.

And the one thing I took away from the experience was that, despite what rights you have, sometimes the best way to secure enjoyment in your land is to be people.. talking with other people.. and forming a community.

Boojum the brown bunny

A boojum bunny?
I've heard of a boojum snark but have (thankfully) never seen one.

*reaches for popcorn* *munch munch* *stares transfixed as the news of the war unfolds*

Banking I'm tempted to agree with you but if you have any better idea on how to stop these sleezy ad farm assholes (yeah I said that) from clogging up the landscape with their ugly signs by all means let us all know, you'll be the most beloved and respected resident ever if you can figure that one out.

Put blocks up covering the view on land you own or have permission to build on. As long as the object is on land that its allowed to be on (the adplotter didn't give you permission) then its legal.

So it sounds like the *kind* of annoyance would be the criteria that makes it right for an individual or group to pressure or harass another individual or group to use or not use their own land the way that the owner wants. If you can't ignore it, then you have the right to pressure the owner. If you feel that what someone else is using their land for is "ruining" the sim, then that makes it right to pressure them.

Additionally, you mention how it may affect the value of the land which you paid for. This isn't annoyance, but rather it relates to your ability to make money. By nature, the business of dealing in real estate is a risky one - sometimes things occur beyond your control that makes your investment go down... sometimes things occur beyond your control that makes your investment go up. Wanting one individual or group to use their land in a manner which supports your business goals hardly seems reasonable.

It was my understanding that the "beautification group" is motivated because they don't like the way the advertisments "looked", and at times didn't even own land next to the advertisements in question. So my question remains... if one group or individual doesn't like the "looks" of someone else's property, or feels they won't be able to make as much profit because the way someone else's property is being used, does *that" give them the right to pressure or harass the landowner to use their land differently?

I also would like to have more control over the way SL "looks". I've had a big-assed mall go up right next to some nice group land I had, and neighbors allow all kinds of ugly crap to be built near my home But in the end I accept that it's each landowner's right to do what they choose with their own land.

my partner and i have been the victim of the same sort of scam that Temporal Mitra is pulling....
a small 16m parcel with a hideous advertising banner on it...
we did a bit of creative landscaping on our parcel to block the vision of this ad within our parcel and the advertiser retaliated by adding a generator to spew particles and shout at regular intervals
we approached the advertiser to buy the land from him, offering him 20 lindens per square meter...well above the going rate for land at the time...he counter offered demanding 25 thousand lindens...needless to say we declined his extortionate demand...in the end...we sold the parcel and moved to another

my point here is that we have laws and standards in effect that PREVENT this sort of thing from happening...zoning restrictions prevent many different sorts of eyesores within a community...Temporal...i am quite sure that if someone were to buy a tiny strip of land in front of your real world house and put up a huge billboard complete with flashing lights and loud speakers constantly bellowing out advertising messages, you would be banging on the dooor of your city planner in nothing flat

what you do is reprehensible...actively infringing upon the right to quiet enjoyment of private property...in most jurisdictions in Canada and the United States you would be heavily fined for what you do...you are damaging the property values of other people's land with your eyesores and then attempt to extort money from them in order to remove it...

i do not support griefing of any sort...but quite frankly Temporal...i feel what you are doing is bordering on griefing...the faster that Linden Labs takes action to limit the sort of activity you are participating the better...SL will be better off for it

I am pulling no scam....I cant speak for other advertisers..but personally, when I purchase a parcel, it may cost me up to 500-2200L..and I put all of my ad parcels up for sale for a couple hundred lindens more than I paid..no more, no less...so I am not extorting anyone. I am not trying to make anyone buy the parcel...and I dont run billboards with particles, noise, spins..or anything else that would be high lag and annoying...they are simple static billboards that cycle the ads on them...changing textures every minute or so.

As for slicing up land...I dont do it...I buy land that is already in 16-32m parcels...Land that was for sale when I purchased it...which means that you had the very same opportunity to purchase it as I did. Why didnt you?...I would think that if you wished to control all the land within your view, you would OWN all the land within your view...why didnt you buy it before, when it was a large parcel, before the land chopper got it? Why do you expect to be able to dictate to those that DID buy it...how they can then utilize it?

Griefing?...hardly...i am merely using my own land to pursue my own business. Just as you are...

Your point that there are "laws and standards in effect that PREVENT this sort of thing from happening...zoning restrictions" is a fallacy....mainland parcels are purposely unzoned to allow creativity, to allow the owners of that land to make it, as the linden motto says "your world, your imagination"...well, my own imagination has lead me to create dozens of businesses within sl...one of which is a billboard advertising company. Advertising in world is not only legal, but is advocated by the lindens:

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http://secondlife.com/businesseducation/doingbiz/publicity.php

How do I advertise in Second Life?

At this time, Linden Lab does not have any advertising or cooperative marketing programs. The advertising opportunity in Second Life is to create a compelling experience or event that attracts people to Second Life and attracts residents to your brand or product. Some residents have set up advertising servers in Second Life, and you can work directly with them. You may find them listed in SLClassifieds, SLBoutique or SLExchange.
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Next, there are those that complain that billboards lower land values...Residents that complain they bought their land for 15L/sqm..and now can only sell it for 8L/sqm...well, good news...you can blame the lindens for a vast surplus of land, that has done more to crash land values than all the advertisers in SL ever could...as for the land barons that have complained that they buy land as an investment, and then would have you believe that they cant sell it because of a billboard...they are often the same people, using an alt, that are doing the land chopping in the first place. Take a look at the land claim times and dates sometime...note that often a large roadway parcel is purchased by a real estate person...then three minutes later, small parcels are subdivided along the roadway...and transfered under a different players name for sale...strange how that happens.

Regardless, so they purchased land that they claim they will have a hard time selling due to the ads...basically what they are saying is that their business is more important than my business...so I should curtail my advertising, so they can make more money?...interesting that they seem to think that my business should close down for their benefit...oh, and if I wont close my business...they will try to force me to...does that mean I have the right to demand that they close their real estate business, because I dont like their spinning "for sale" signs?...or maybe they should just close their business because their landbots buy all the good parcels before a regular resident can find a good deal? No, of course not..because they have the right to conduct their business as they see fit, within the constraints of the community standards and TOS, as do I.

Finally, you say "what you do is reprehensible...actively infringing upon the right to quiet enjoyment of private property"...I am not infringing in any way upon your right to enjoy YOUR property...your property being that land within the confines of your parcels borders...my adjoining property is not yours to enjoy...but you seem to think you should be able to enjoy looking at the unencumbered space over my property, just because it is in "your view"...does that mean I have the right to expect the same?...my view from my ad parcel, includes your house...will you remove it, to preserve MY view?...of course not...but somehow because you seem to think that your house is more valid than my billboard, that my billboard should be removed for your benefit, for free. Fortunately, the lindens do not share your opinion...they treat all property owners equally...as they should.

You don't really expect me to read all this, do you? On a Friday?

Ad farms suck and are a blight on the world. The people who run them are evil, blood sucking leaches. Everybody but the people who run them agree with this. Being legal or not has nothing to do with it.

Temporal everyone knows your going to continue to blight the landscape with your adfarms and do anything you can to earn a buck. They are just telling you they will do whatever they can to make you stop. But this sort of diatribe makes you sound like a 1980's money-crazed yuppie sociopath. Take it easy.

When the ad farmer I have land on three sides off kept putting up pictures of Rudy Gulliani, higher and higher above my tree line, I struck back today by putting up a three sided wall with pictures of Rudy in drag. Real photos, too. If he wants attention for Rudy, I guess I'll help him out since I can't make the $9600 for 16 sq m land owner go away. I've another 800 prim to use if he wants to go toe to toe.

Yudasin 45,192,89