Property Rights vs. Land Harassment and Coercion

Now, again...I had no issue with "complaining"...what I had issues with was the actual griefing...and since the only "laws" that determine allowed and disallowed behavior between residents ARE the TOS and the community standards...and those are entirely based on what you aren't allowed to do...while what you ARE allowed to do is covered under the official motto of Second Life...ie.."Your World, Your Imagination"...

In my last post, I suggested an equitable resolution that everyone should be able to get behind..both the advertisers, and the residents that dislike the advertisers...and since it would resolve a great deal of animosity on the grid, the Lindens should buy into it to...are any of you interested in finding an equitable solution to the problem...????

So as long as no one forces the OP to do the right thing - he will continue ad-farming. When zoning is forced down his throat he will stop. So be it.

See...I just dont get it...I propose a way to give everyone what they want...something that both homeowners and advertisers could and should get behind...and there is no interest...would you rather just complain?...

and quite frankly, the idea of "forcing" advertisers to do anything is not going to ever work...nor would it with any of you...as is illustrated by your reaction to being "forced" to look at ads....but if it gave them zoned areas they could purchase land in for ads...that would be unobtrusive, and free from griefing, they would most certainly be interested.

you have all accused me of complaining without reason....now I suggest a solution that should make everyone happy...and you just keep complaining?..why?

Everyone wants you to stop cutting up land into 16M plots - so stop doing it. Problem solved. None of these 'advertisers' have come out in support of ad farmers. The advertisers are not cutting up land and sticking billboards on it - you are.

chuckle..for one..I dont chop up land..i buy land that is already chopped up...a minor difference perhaps...but I dont create the ad farms...i buy land in farms that are already there...

secondly...there are hundreds of advertisers in sl...I represent way less than one percent of all the ads out there....so me starting or stopping anything is not going to impact anything...but...I do know most of the advertisers..and could speak to them, the homeowners or the group are interested in having a discussion on this....

It will take input from both the residents, and the advertisers to create a proposal for the lindens...perhaps an open letter?

and in your own opinion "everyone" wants the abolition of ad land...but you dont speak for all of second life...so the "everyone" means the 220 members of the group that has been putting up the ad blockers...hardly a significant "everyone"...but....the abolition of in world advertising is not going to be fair the the people that have invested in advertising systems...nor would it be fair to those businesses that can no longer advertise in the classifieds, such as the casinos...or would you suggest they be abolished as well?

Is Arbor Project is the group name for those interested?

Temporal, the only suggestion is to stop ad-farming. Make money some other way. Why damage your legitimate business by engaging in activities a organized community group is taking action against?

There are other ways to establish advertising venues.
Suggestions:
1. make deals with High traffic venues to place your network ads there and profit share with land owner.
2. Develop a Focus Group and buy a large plot of land, place a meeting place on it and advertise to those who are paid to be in the focus group. A better return of controlled feedback for advertisers.

In world advertising can stay. Ad-Farmers destroying the land with 16 M plots and billboards must go.

For two reasons. First, because the actions the organized community group is taking is considered to be griefing under the rules of second life...so to cave in to them, is to give in to griefing...do you do that in your business? Secondly, to stop advertising is to ask hundreds of residents to abandon the investment they have made in centrally administered advertising systems, the investment in their ad parcels, without a way to recover said investment...that is hardly a compromise..it is the griefers getting what they want and the advertisers giving up everything they have worked for.

It makes perfect sense to compromise, for the benefit of all, but to demand that advertisers stop advertising, with no upside for them...is patently not going to happen.

As for the legitimacy of advertising, it is every bit as legitimate as any of your businesses...or dont you sell advertising in your magazines?...

ok..so lets see....triple our costs, at the very least...to put ads in "high traffic areas"...

or pay someone to look at our ads....again, not a viable solution...since paying someone to view an ad, has never ever worked in sl...

and lastly...there you go again, demanding something that you have no right to demand from someone...regardless of what you or any other resident says "MUST" happen...the only thing that any of us MUST do is adhere to the TOS, the CS, and pay our tier...

I am actually interested now.

Do you really not understand that _laws_ do not define what is _right_? This could be the issue here (and that is the position that I described as "ethically and intellectually retarded". There are very few laws in SL, and they are poorly defined and will not cover everything that happens. There are, for instance, no laws against selling freebies, or in fact outright con-artistry. If you are claiming that the fact that one is _allowed_ to do something by the software means that it is _okay_ to do it, this would further indicate that you are also saying that it is okay to resell freebies and, for that matter, sell empty boxes claiming that they contain products. Or, for that matter, land swoop. All of those things are legal under the ToS and I'm sure I can come up with more instances just from looking at the forums.

Is this the case, then?

and complain ad nauseam when community groups try to stop you from ad farming. The line has been drawn in the sand on this issue. Everyone back to the battle field. Grid is open- kind of.

Well, I don't know - I'm interested to see whether this particular person is actually a sociopath and really doesn't _understand_ the concept of social ethics, or whether they just don't care that they are making money out of pissing everyone else off.

Call it research.

I can't speak for everyone, but I know that I personally believed every word you said when you swore to quit and never be in the business of spam ads to find you right back in business. I never wronged you, I just made the mistake of defending the "changed spammer". Still not sure what you expect, when you destroy land and ruin peoples land and land value, yea they get a little upset. And as for a solution... STOP KNOWINGLY DESTROYING MAINLAND AND EXTORTING RESIDENTS!

Spam ad extortion may not be TOS wrong, but we all know its wrong. The coward that knowingly sets his bots to steal mis-listed land parcels also hides under the TOS but as community 98% of us understand what is morally wrong, bad business and looked down on by the community even if the TOS fails to state it.

let me take them one at a time...selling freebies is in my own opinion wrong...and I dont advocate it at all because it is selling something that has no monetary value ....however, I do not grief those that do it....since one does not cure a wrong by committing another wrong.

scamming and conning people in sl is again, in my own opinion, wrong...because it is misrepresentation...taking money, and not giving what you have promised to give in return, that is morally wrong in any civilization...but I dont advocate the use of inworld griefing to stop it...I believe it should be handled by the lindens.

selling empty boxes, would fall under the same heading as scamming...it is, in my own opinion, wrong..but again, I would not grief someone that did it...I would report them to the lindens.

land swooping, if done manually or accomplished with a landbot, is entirely legal, the lindens have addressed this specific issue before...to my way of thinking, having a landbot beat me to a prime parcel is irritating, but all it means is they are playing the game better than i am when they beat me.

If done as the result of an intervention in a private land sale, where the seller neglected to set it to sale for the individual buying it, and the bot snatched it, as the result of an oversight...the bot owner should and normally does return the land, there are noteable exceptions. Those that use a bot or manual land swooping to intervene in a private land transfer, I dont view those as good or bad, in their actions...but even if they do piss me off, occasionally...I would not grief the bot owner. They are not doing anything immoral, they are merely buying land for what it is set to sale for...the seller has to click on multiple acknowledgement to set it to sale, including confirming the price...What I do is put anti bot tools on my own land to tp them home when they show up, and I dont buy from them....but again, i do NOT grief them.

So do you think that people who sell freebies, scam etc should stop doing that, because it is bad?

Or would they be perfectly fine to continue until whatever interpretation of the ToS LL decides to enforce today gets them banned?

What would you do, if you were them?

Sarah, unfortunately, the TOS has addressed the use of landbots, when they made the change in the TOS when the viewer was open sourced....and while most of us dont like it, and may view it as morally wrong, it IS addressed in the TOS....and regardless, it does not give anyone the right to grief the owners of the landbots...just to compete with them.

Linden Lab has designed the Service to be experienced only as offered by Linden Lab at the Websites or partner websites. Linden Lab is not responsible for any aspect of the Service that is accessed or experienced using software or other means that are not provided by Linden Lab. You agree not to create or provide any server emulators or other software or other means that provide access to or use of the Servers without the express written authorization of Linden Lab. Notwithstanding the foregoing, you may use and create software that provides access to the Servers for substantially similar function (or subset thereof) as the Viewer; provided that such software is not used for and does not enable any violation of these Terms of Service. Linden Lab is not obligated to allow access to the Servers by any software that is not provided by Linden Lab, and you agree to cease using, creating, distributing or providing any such software at the request of Linden Lab. You are prohibited from taking any action that imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on Linden Lab's infrastructure.

um...yes, i said I think they should stop doing it...because it is morally wrong...taking money for something that has no monetary value is wrong...is it my place to grief the scammer?, no...it is not...is it my place to form a group to grief them?...again, no it is not...

should they be reported to the lindens?...most certainly...if the lindens are not willing to address it, it is not the place of any individual or group to stop them....which is why, to a large degree, why I chose to leave the slbb.

Right now, there is an abuse reporting methodology in place, as imperfect as it may be....but to try to get retribution against someone even purposely scamming by committing another infraction every bit as immoral is just as wrong...that is not any more moral than the behavior of the scammer.

and to equate the owners of advertising businesses with scammers, or thieves is hardly fair...since to steal someone's money is certainly immoral...advertising is hardly immoral, not in real life, nor in sl...and the validity of advertising in SL IS addressed by the lindens in the knowledge base...

"How do I publicize my business in Second Life (articles, classifieds, blogs, etc.)?

Publicizing a Second Life business in the Real World is much like publicizing other Real World businesses. Public relations, advertising, blogging and articles in Second Life publications all attract attention to your Second Life business.

How do I advertise in Second Life?

At this time, Linden Lab does not have any advertising or cooperative marketing programs. The advertising opportunity in Second Life is to create a compelling experience or event that attracts people to Second Life and attracts residents to your brand or product. Some residents have set up advertising servers in Second Life, and you can work directly with them. You may find them listed in SLClassifieds, SLBoutique or SLExchange.

We have a business idea that involves working with businesses in Second Life. How do we reach them?

There are many ways to reach businesses in Second Life. Promoting specific products or services can be done through SLClassifieds, SLBoutique or SLExchange. In addition, there are many publications about Second Life and you can take out advertising or get coverage through them."

Okay, well, we have established the common ground that just because the ToS allows something, it does not mean that someone is okay doing it. In fact, in some cases they should stop doing it.

Now, you have defended your own activities on the basis that the ToS allows them. Given the previous point, though, this is irrelevant as to whether you should be doing them or not.

I presume therefore that you would say that one or more of the following is true:

(a) it is not wrong to annoy people in SL for one's own benefit;
(b) there is some benefit to the world that overrides the annoyance that people feel to mean that your activities are okay

otherwise, well, I would assume that you would have stopped, as a general ethical position is that it is bad to do things which annoy other people and reduce the value of their assets, and ad farming most definitely falls under both of those categories - that isn't under debate here.

Might I ask which it is, or is there something that I have missed?

You presume incorrectly...for several reasons...first, there are many, many things that will annoy people...I personally am annoyed by you...but I dont have the right to tell you to stop talking, nor to grief you into silence...and you are annoyed by me...but you have no moral mandate to stop me from putting forth my position, nor do you have the right to grief me into anything. Secondly, I have used the tos to defend my use of my land, as I wish...which is every landowners right, again, this is something the lindens support....Thirdly, the only immoral items we agreed upon is selling freebies, scamming, selling empty boxes...and I dont know that we agree at all on the subject of land swooping. and I have agreed that those are immoral, not because they are not specifically addressed in the TOS..but because they are dishonest activities...they are not merely "annoying"..they are dishonest.

Advertising may annoy you as well, but it is not dishonest...it is not immoral...it is a valid business in SL...linden labs even advocates the use of advertising in world...as I just showed you...

Now, do YOU agree, that linden labs, as the owners of the platform, should have the right to state what can and cannot be done on said platform? god knows you dont agree that the advertisers as the owners of the land, have the right to state what can and cannot be done on their own land...so thought I should ask...

The lindens plainly advocate the use of advertising in world...and suggest to companies that wish to publicise their brands or products, that they contract with said advertisers...

I will quote it again...in case you dont quite understand it...

How do I advertise in Second Life?

At this time, Linden Lab does not have any advertising or cooperative marketing programs. The advertising opportunity in Second Life is to create a compelling experience or event that attracts people to Second Life and attracts residents to your brand or product. Some residents have set up advertising servers in Second Life, and you can work directly with them. You may find them listed in SLClassifieds, SLBoutique or SLExchange.

now, since the folks that own the platform not only see nothing wrong with in world advertising, but actually tell people how to do it...I assume that the morality discussion is over?

You're not going to answer the question?

As they say, there are some in this game that will never do things ethically.

I just have to ask:

A network ad system:

How does the AD being networked RAISE the value of the land its on? The buyer doesn't get the ad, the ad doesn't give him anything. The fact that the ad is networked and auto-respawns on sim screwups help..........

No one but you.

You can't charge more for the land because one of your fancy shmancy "took me days to code" ad signs is on it.