Property Rights vs. Land Harassment and Coercion

So after all the forum posting back and forth for two days he goes back to doing exactly what he was doing. Community-be-damned, Full speed ahead. The adfarmers feel that their right to make profit and place ads on their property takes precedents over everything else and there is no convincing them otherwise.

The anti-adfarm activists are obviously making some progress. Keep up the good work folks.

No, I did not propose a solution for the "problems" that ad banners create for people...since the "problem" you mention seems to be that people want to be able to tell other people what they can or can't do with their land...and they aren't allowed to. Gosh, I dont think that is really a problem. I believe in property rights, and so, evidently do the lindens. You may view people running legitimate businesses on land they purchase without everyone in the game being allowed to determine what they can do with their own land as a "problem"...I dont see it as a problem at all. As for the zoning you mentioned, I said two things about it...one, it is already in place on estates..and two, if it were proposed for the mainland that I would support it...

as for "letting" other players do anything...last time I checked, a resident didnt have to ask permission from anyone in the game to do anything they wanted to on their own land...oh, wait...I forgot...you believe others should be able to tell the landowner what they can or can't do with their land...

And as for your opinion that advertisers ruin the view...well, I will tell you one of the first things I learned from a linden in the game..."you buy the land, not the view"...

Yeah, the progress that has been made is I am not willing to put my land up for automatic sale anymore, if someone wants to remove a billboard...now they have to ask me...

and yes, advertisers...do feel that they have a right to "make profit and place ads on their property"...just as every other businessperson in sl feels they have the right to make a profit from their own land and work...again, how hypocritical is it that you will protect the right of any other business to do the same?...but not advertisers...most interesting.

The other thing I find most interesting is that I have, in every instance, maintained my position from a logical, business standpoint...basing my arguments on the TOS and the community standards...and each of you, have chosen to make personal attacks on me, for my position that landowners, ANY landowner...should be free to practice their business on that land, without intimidation, persecution, and aggravated griefing...again...most interesting...

You're right. There is no convincing them otherwise. Yet we try anyway. The adfarmers are purely here to profit - they care about their business, not the SL community. Whatever they can get away with without violating TOS, they will do. This whole idea of building a community and trying to be kind to the neighbors is foreign to them for some reason. And they totally don't get why an ad business with towering annoying graphics is perceived differently than any other business.

Here's one clue: people don't make special trips out to adfarms to shop or purchase services.

As somebody who sells a fair bit of land, I've seen your tactics first hand, Temporal.

I once bought a large plot of land (approx half a sim) from a club owner who needed to sell quickly. As usual, I cut it into smaller plots and put them on sale. And, as usual, I put them for sale at not much of a margin, simply because that's how I like to work.

You came along and bought a plot right in the middle and erected a couple of huge ad towers, immediately reducing the value of all of the surrounding unsold land. The margin you put on the land for others to buy from you was many, many times higher than the margin I put on the land in the first place.

So you get no sympathy from me about people trying to damage your business. I *really* wish we could have a blacklist for who we sell land to.

That so?...so you are saying that I purchased land from you...what size?...was it already in 16m parcels?...or was it a larger parcel...?...because I can say one thing about land that i buy for real estate sales..I almost always put an ad kiosk on them...but putting it up for sale for "many, many times higher than the margin I put on the land in the first place" is just baloney...mainland land parcels dont have the room to make "many, many times the margin"...and it doesnt do anything to the value of the real estate, since the large real estate parcel is priced competitively, and when it is sold, the ad kiosk goes away...they last hours in most cases...minutes in others..but when I set real estate land for sale...it flips quick...I dont buy and hold...and you sure as hell cant buy a large parcel and put a billboard on it and force anyone to try it...if you buy a bunch of land, you should know better than that...

and honestly.I dont ever remember buying land from you....but you could say anything about a person here. couldnt you...just like I could...so if you have sim name, and documented dates and sales times...prices...everything else..I am happy to compare it to mine...since I track mine, how much I make off of every parcel I sell..i am more than happy to look up the records...

oh, and speaking of records...I see you are a member of the same griefing group that has been persecuting the advertisers..so you will forgive me if I say you are full of crap...because you people are willing to do anything to get your way...you should have left the group before you told your lies...

I lost a small piece of my soul reading this thread.

At the time, I put all my land in a group, so you won't see my name in your records. (I abandoned that when land sales started to work intermittently, the lack of a group transaction history meant I couldn't verify that somebody had paid me but not received their land.)

The fact that mainland doesn't have room to make high margins just shows that you priced it unrealistically, rather than the "fair" price you claim to put on your plots. Nobody was buying it because of your high price, which in turn meant the presence of your giant ads adversely affected what I could get.

All part of selling mainland, I know - but save me your tears about being persecuted. And the only lying here is related to your rather selective memory.

As anti landbot as most people know I am (and I am very very anti landbot), I can say I would much rather deal with landbots than spam dealers. Spam dealing is a dirty unethical business. It completely destroys our mainland. If forces residents to either live next to total crap, or be forced to pay higher than market to insane prices to buy the several small plots around them.

The right ting to do? I'm sorry Temporal, but what I watched a close friend buy up several plots you had cut for his friend because she was in a panic and worried about all ads going up right next to her home in a sim that was currently ad free. She did not have the money but he caring for the girl bought them all for her out of his own pocket just to eliminate the spam next to her home. I would consider that a "right thing to do". You know how people people feel about getting there sims destroyed so not sure what you expected. I remember a period where you swore you would never deal in spam lots again. You worked very hard to get off of arbors ban list and an old land group of mines land list just to go right back to spam dealing. At that time you seemed sincere about your concerns for the residents of secondlife and I really honestly believed you and the things you said about how you knew that it was wrong and looked down on by sl residents and you were stopping because you could see how it effected people and how upset it made people and you knew it was wrong. I feel like a total jackass now for talking to the heads of these groups saying I really felt you had changed and were stopping your spamming actions. So thanks for proving me wrong and I'm sorry I trusted you. Thanks for making me look like a total jackass for defending you.

And everyone around your ads no matter what they paid for the land or pay in tier lose money when property value goes down because your ads went up.

Extortion is exactly what it is. The only ones who generally see the signs are the people living directly around them who want them gone. Thats not effective advertisement in my mind. Thats just a way to make money when people pay to have the signs removed.

Your "investments" on a parcel are business expenses, they are not land improvements that in any way increase the value of the parcel. If somebody paid those prices, they don't get anything extra than if they bought somewhere else, just a 16sqm splat that allows for 3 prims. Perfect for 1 small tree.

I am curious if you also stiff it to your advertising clients?

I always wonder about this. When they sell to advertisers I'm sure they neglect to tell them, yea your signs will be all over second life, but by the way this type of advertising is looked down on by the games residents so it may have more of a negative effect on your business than good.

you are a troll and quote out of context.

Don't worry, I found it and cut it up into smaller pieces. You can buy them back at an inflated price if you don't want to go to hell when you die.

LOL! Rock On !!

I'm already going to hell in a 0.1 oz vial in a handbasket. Why would I care that you shredded some tiny portion of me?

Nice! Now everyone can take a little bit of Draco18s home with them. I'll put my piece on my fireplace mantel!

E

/me passes out the cheese and crackers to go with OP's whine.

It seems odd to bother starting the thread in the first place. It's surely common knowledge that everyone hates ad farmers/ad griefers. The only people who ever defend the practice are, well, other ad farmers. I would have thought the Bush sign affair would have illustrated that.

The position that because something is permissible under the ToS it must be okay and should not be complained about is an ethically and intellectually retarded one - as is the position that because something might be banned under the ToS (and it is not at all sure that the anti-adfarm measures are) it is therefore wrong and immoral. One would have to be not only a serious rule utilitarian but also have an amazing lack of imagination regarding rules to believe this stuff - or, of course, a financial motive.

The only person that this thread is aimed at, I think, is the poster him or herself, as reinforcement for his or her bizarre ideas. Perhaps he or she hopes to be able to dismiss everyone opposed to the idea that they should be happy to either be visually spammed by crappy billboards, or buy land at an extortionate price to get rid of them, as hate-filled and irrational. But it's clearly not irrational to (a) not like something that ruins your environment and makes your land value go down - if you don't want to be extorted for several thousand L$ that is - and (b) not like the people responsible for that.

Still, a _proper_ sociopath wouldn't need to post this sort of thread, so perhaps there is hope for the poster yet.

and tell me...exactly how does one "improve" land in second life...since you can change the shape, elevation, and clear the land with a mouse click?...everytime land is bought and sold, the land is a blank slate...so the only "investment" one can make in the land is the amount of time spent in finding and utilizing it for your own purpose.

so dont give me the old "improvment" argument..it doesnt wash

On the contrary, sarah...Since you wish to put this on a personal level, I shall...It is I that regrets trusting you...i was assured by you and several others...including the creator of the group that is doing the griefing that THEY would never, ever use those tactics..and when I contacted him several weeks ago, after watching one of his membership slapping up the huge prims...he asked me who it was...at the time I think i had four or five 16m parcels in my inventory....leftovers...from getting rid of my network...

after contacting him, to tell him what this member was doing....he seemed as if he was concerned...then the griefing actually escalated...so that just told me that my stopping was the result of misplaced trust on my part....you all said that you were working hard to do it the right way....I even spent months telling dragon everytime I saw a land chopper. Just to find out that I have been helping a group of griefers all the time...

Ordinal...one more time....when you say "But it's clearly not irrational to (a) not like something that ruins your environment and makes your land value go down"...it shows a basic misunderstanding on your part...the land the ad is ON is NOT YOUR ENVIRONMENT....it is NOT your land...you have no right to determine what it is used for...whether it is sold, or not sold, used or not used..YOU DO NOT OWN IT...so...unless YOU are willing to let the advertiser tell YOU how you may use YOUR land...what you may put over it...to what degree you may build on it...then your argument has no validity...

no one in sl has any responsiblity to use their land for the public welfare of the "community"...the community does not pay for their tier...if you wish to be altrustic, and give your land over to public use, fine and dandy...but do not expect, or demand that others do the same....so rather than spending time griefing advertisers...may I suggest we do something that will actually help resolve this constant animosity....

One of the respondents here suggested that we ask for zoning laws on the mainland, this would do two things...first, it would help land owners avoid buying anywhere an ad farm is....to protect property values...

Secondly, it would offer protected areas for the advertisers, where it was actually zoned for ads...this would remove any incentive for advertisers to ask for high prices for their land...since it could only be purchased for other ads...not to remove ads...

Third...Lets ask the lindens for abandoned parcels, that would be made into public parklands...that would remain the property of the lindens, that residents of that sim could turn into community environments, that would enhance the "view" that you all seek...

Now, all of this, I would have no issues with at all...it is fair, and it would give both the advertisers and the residents the freedom, and the separation of their own individual visions for every sim...

Yes yes yes, but all of that actually exposes the fact that you know that your activities are actually annoying to everyone else (otherwise, what's the point in suggesting possible changes?). Yet you still keep doing them, for your own profit. I submit that that is rather by definition unethical.

Also, your first paragraph is either confused (if English is not your first language I apologise) or delusional, in that an ad next to one's property is clearly still in one's _environment_. Otherwise your "business" would be pointless. I'm not going to get into some lengthy debate about this, everyone _else_ can see the difference, but really, you do realise that, don't you? For that matter, you do realise that everyone else on the grid who is not also an ad farmer hates 16m2 ad plots and wishes they were gone, and mostly by any means necessary?