Login preference to Premiums

I agree, I think. Though before LL institutes such a policy they need ensure it's possible to get verified who wants to play SL.



I'm not sure I've seen any evidence of this, I would love to know the reasons of which you write. By my calculations between the tier discount and stipend it's almost a wash for LL. They are not going to see a huge profit from my premium payment (and yes, I am a premium member). LL will end up seeing more revenue from an artist, scripter or designer on a basic account than they ever will from a premium account like mine. I don't build or make anything, I rent my land and have never used the Lindex.

It isn't 'altruism' which prompts me to pay a monthly fee for my account, but the fact that I have few saleable and zero technical skills. They have made more money from me indirectly through my real estate profits (and I almost always kept my holdings under 512 to avoid tier), paid to various designers all over SL who eventually cash out the Lindens I pay them, and who pay each time they upload texture in order to keep me in SLstyle to which I've become accustomed. They have made more money through the island owners to whom I pay my rent and who in turn pay LL and are able to profit enough to pay that lovely transaction fee when trading in their Lindens for hard cash. They have made more money via the fees charged to my card for the Lindens I've bought directly (though I haven't really done much of that since becoming a DJ).

As far as I can tell, a productive basic account holder produces far more revenue for LL than a consumptive premium account holder. And make no mistake, in the near future (if not the recent present) most premium account holders will primarily be consumers, whose primary contribution to SL will be to keep the money flowing through what they buy. I don't want to see the creative (and poor) artists and students interested in making their mark in SL unable to do so because of the fact that when starting out they can't afford a monthly fee. Neither do I want to see corporate America taking over the world-building in SL, that may happen anyway but as long as anyone can hop on and create content, the Madison Avenue-ing of SL maybe slowed a bit.[Don't believe me? Look at the web, how many ads were online in the early 90's in comparison to now?]

Wait, here's an idea Annabelle.

If you believe that premium accounts are part of the solution to what ails SL, and I'm not disagreeing (they are part of the solution); and I feel that basic accounts are important to the culture and economy of SL, let me propose a possible solution.

Let's say you start as a basic member and start designing clothes. At first you're spending a lot of time and money learning your craft, uploading textures and trying to market your clothing. The time comes, however when you are at last breaking even. And then that gorgeous day when you are turning quite a nifty profit, but you still have a basic account. What if, after a certain amount of revenue over a certain period of time. Let's say you're now averaging XUSD per month. At that point a fee kicks in, when and if your profits drop below XUSD per month, the fee is rescinded. What do you think Annabelle, could something like that work?

And I am all for creating incentives to switch over to a premium account. But I do mean 'creating', in no way should the experience for basic members change. As I said in Anna's other thread, I like the idea of offering an automatic discount on land purchases for first time buyers in lieu of First Land as one of them.

People who pay the month-to-month memberships don't get as much back in stipend compared to what they pay in fees. I think for yearly members, it often does turn out much more evenly as you state.



I am sure there are some basic account holders who are more productive than some premium account holders. The problem is mostly with the basic account holders who sit idly and camp and hog resources, or run around with guns and such things. The perception out there is that most of the basic account holders are primarily consumers of limited resources, and that the productive ones are the minority. And there are many people who create and sell things who are premium. Many of us like to have our own land on which to build and sell, and not deal with covenants and landlords and the like.

The problem that is inherent in all of this is how to discourage people from having tons of free accounts camping and doing nothing and clogging up the system making it unusable for the paying folks, while encouraging people who perhaps don't have the means for a premium account to continue to contribute.



This is a suggestion that has potential, though it would require a great deal more tracking. It would in effect be a sort of tax on earnings for basic users. If you make money, you pay, if you don't make money, you don't pay. The problem would be, in a system like this, that the productive basic users who are being 'taxed' may complain then about the free account users who do nothing and don't have to pay a tax and sit around and eat up resources. It may turn into the same argument that this thread is highlighting, paid vs. free accounts, but this time the productive free accounts would be upset about the 'welfare' free accounts.

I think we agree that it's not the most desirable solution to take things away from the current basic users if it can be avoided - and I like your idea about giving a land credit for new users as well. I hope that Linden Labs is open to user solutions that would make SL a better place.

They do need one- to throw you in. I did post something useful in starting this thread and I did agree with Argent that verifieds should be included. And who told you to go premium, I just let you know the option was there. Not my fault you have a victimization complex.

But you know, you'd have seen both of those points if you paid attention and read before replying. You know, like someone at least in 6th grade.

I'm going to put votes towards the feature suggestion Wild, because that would accomplish what I suggested here, at least in part. Regardless of whether verifieds are included or not, premium needs some perks to it if they want people to take it up. All they've done lately is take stuff away.

[edited]

Someone wana help me answer this? *rolls eyes*

SL was a paid service when i started, it was nicer, faster, less of an attraction to griefers and kids, and we all know LL wants money. Who doesn't? Right now i see SL as being worse then WoW when it comes to getting the wrong people. Way too many griefers, idiots, and kids. It's because LL is no longer aiming for quality but quantity. I mean what is the point of having paid accounts if you get hardly anything for having one? If they wana continue supplying premium membership they need to offer something for it. Either that or they should just kill them off and make EVERYONE basic to only pay for land tiers. I don't see a point in paying for premium membership when i can get all the same benefits from basic, from other sources. I personally want a reason for everything. If there is little to no reason, then it shouldn't be here. As i stated previously, owning land and getting a few more linden on your stipend just isn't enough to encourage anyone. Therefor they either need to bring more to this service to encourage people, or just throw it out.

I don't think what the topics origin is saying that SL should be as restrictive at login as Tibia, but that SL should allow premium accounts more abilities then basic. it's only fair. If were actually paying to play then we need to get our monies worth. I just don't see a point if paying for worthless crap.

Those of you who don't know about Tibia, it's a old 2D looking MMORPG that's free to most, and paid to some like SL is, except when you try to log into the game as a free account you may not actually get in all the time if the servers are full, yet paid accounts will always get in.

Last I checked, we live and work in a free enterprise market. We live and work in a capitalist economy. Why should SL be any different? I work hard for my money in RL and SL, and don't exactly love the fact that my tax dollars in RL or premium account fees (and upload fees and tier fees, and Lindex exchange fees) in SL go toward supporting those who feel like they deserve a free ride.

YES it's a game. YES I understand that! But other games, including another hugely popular one, World of Warcraft, charge $X/month for ALL users. Part of being a citizen of any nation means contributing to the infrastructure, usually via taxes. If people don't want to pay (and I completely understand why someone wouldn't want to pay money to a damned game LOL) then the people who DO pay should at least receive some extra benefit over owning land (big whoop) and a lame stipend. If it's login queue preference, increased inventory allowances, or any other plan, that's fine.

Sorry to rant.

I dont really think this is a good idea.

Ill tell you why -

A lot of new players these days are unverifieds this would reduce the chances they will spend their USD on SL - thus potentially hurting the whole Second Life more than the delay hurts us already cuaght up in the "game".

I think the real issue is accounts logged in that are doing NOTHING in SL - IE campers. If we still had performance issues related to overpopulation after camping was removed - THEN it would be time to start looking at other alternatives

As in, I don't think premium accounts are the profit centers you think *for LL*.



The thing is, perception is not reality. I would need facts and figures which state that most basic account holders sit around and do nothing but suck up resources. Show me numbers that justify penalizing a group of people before instituting a penalty. The fact is that it's possible to do both. I know of people who create amazing builds, create community centers and spaces for nonprofits and who camp to afford textures.

My experience, my perception is that most of the people running around griefing and shooting are unverifieds. That is not to say that most unverifieds are griefers. Perception is not reality, policy should not be institued on perception because people can perceive anything. They can have the perception the moon is made of green cheese. That doesn't mean it's time to for NASA to send a cheese-harvesting expedition.

I do believe in eliminating unverified accounts. But I also don't think that step should be taken until it's possible for everyone who wants to become verified to do so. That isn't the case now.



I think it would be more like a business account which would offer unique benefits of its own. Things of particular interest to business owners in SL.

That is one of the great thing about the way your mind works Annabelle, you are willing to be fair. Which is why I'm trying not to find some of the language your using offensive. I don't think you realize how inflammatory comments like, 'welfare' and 'do nothing but sit around and eat up resources' are. Particulary when you have no way of knowing the totality of these *players* second life existences. There are people on this board (whom I ignore) on both sides of the issue who have been way nastier. I address you because I get the sense you are a fair-minded individual, truly interested in seeing SL succeed.


Torley Linden:
Just a note that while this topic is bound to generate some heated discussion, please keep the conversation civil and don't flame others. If you want to be direct, you can PM someone privately without airing your dirty laundry.

Please see the guidelines:

/invalid_link.html

Hopefully this thread won't spiral out of control and have to be closed.

They also spend more money dealing with mainland landowners, and they've been cutting that back... closing Guy Linden's support forum, for example. Island landowners take most of their problems to the estate owner instead.

Which is no doubt one of the reasons they've increased the price and support charges for islands... but now they've done it, they've made new estates 50% more valuable to them than they were last year.

Um, me too, Yiffy. I don't mean why you or I would prefer more premium accounts in SL, I mean why do you think Linden Labs wants more premium accounts in SL. Their behaviour seems to indicate the opposite... in the past year they have systematically cut the benefits of premium accounts, and massively increased the number of non-premium accounts on the rolls.

But even when I started, when I had to pay for my first Basic account, it wasn't clear to me that Premium accounts were all that worthwhile for most people. This isn't a new debate. You can either get all worked up about it, or realise that Linden Labs just doesn't think Premium is more than a marketing tool. And not a particularly premium one.
that's basically what they do. The first tier is 512 square meters for $6 to $10 a month... with about a buck a week in linden dollars thrown in to soften the blow.
The reason for premium accounts is to let them charge people a bit more for the first parcel of land, and keep prices for cheap content from bottoming out by making sure there's enough people spending their stipends every week to keep the churn up.
You sound like me in 2005.

It's not a matter of "why should SL be different", the fact is that SL is literally a communist utopia.

From each according to his abilities. To each according to his needs. There is absolutely nothing that your Avatar in SL actually needs that isn't provided free of charge. All your needs in SL are taken care of, gratis, by the Grid. And nobody seems to notice, they think that money is actually important to their lives in the SL world.

SL reminds me most of the socialist Culture in Iain Banks' science fiction series about an immensely rich galaxy-spanning post-singularity civilization whose most basic principles include "Money is a sign of Poverty". In terms of the world that SL is simulating, money is nothing more than a game played by people who don't actually need any of it. Every last bit of "capitalism" in SL is imported through LindeX and other exchanges that let people out here who have to put up with the costs of living in a real world pay for their happy socialist proxies to boost their status in the SL Culture.

Argent, This is all true. LOL. My avatar doesn't NEED nice hair, nice clothes, etc etc. She comes with all that stuff, just by existing. She also doesn't NEED to sleep, eat, or perform any of the other human functions that are required by having a body.

On the other hand, I don't NEED Second Life, either. It doesn't pay my rent or put food on my plate. I could toss the dang computer out the window and I could live very happily without it (billions of people do.)

I think that what I was trying to say is that the SERVICE of SL is not communist. I don't expect my phone service provided free. I don't expect my gas, water, or electric bills to be paid for by all the other people living in my city. I expect that I need to utilize my skills to hold down a job to gain money to pay for these services on my own. If we all received 'according to our needs,' and not 'according to our abilities', good grief, I might as well go live in a hut and eat worms, since I'll be danged if my hard work will go towards feeding people who believe that they deserve part of my work production. (Of course it does, but that's between me and the US Gov't.) I DO pay taxes, because I expect that my government will supply me with necessities of civil protection, a defense system, decent roads, and a judicial system.

Such is Second Life. Based in the United States, I am assuming that the Lindens did not imagine a free utopia, where ALL of their work effort went into supporting millions of people who want to play a game. They would love to get paid, I imagine, and make a profit. The Lindens, in SL, are essentially the government. If I am to pay for my premium membership, I would expect that my 'taxes' go toward providing me with a service, i.e. decent login, increased whatever, you name it. I do NOT expect that my fees or taxes go toward providing EVERYONE ELSE with the same service.

How to fix this? I don't know. I agree that non-premium members do indeed provide wonderful content to SL. That is NOT the debate here.

I'm just sort of confused as to why someone could afford a decent computer along with decent internet connectivity AND a decent graphics card, and then claim to not be able to pay $72/year for a premium membership. (Who made that starving student comment?)

O

p.s. Hey everyone, the Lindens really ARE reading this thread! How exciting!

Linden Labs breaks down their numbers by types of accounts and money spent. When the number of free accounts surpasses the number of premium accounts by far, but the economy does not grow at the same rate, that leads some people to believe that the astronomical growth in basic accounts is not that beneficial on the whole.

As far as the quality of the basic account holders go, the problem is, it's the 'bad' ones who give everyone a bad name. For some lively discussion, see the thread in Resident Answers about the people who wear signboard advertisements. Well, they're called a lot worse than that over there. Yes, it is just a perception, and may not be rooted in reality - but perception is what caused all this discussion in the first place.



I do tend to embellish a bit when trying to make a point. Especially when I'm summing up what I see to be a popular opinion among those who would argue for more benefits for premium members. And when I'm comparing myself to those who throw around obscenities like there's no tomorrow, you're right, it's harder for me to see how some people could see my relatively mild comments as inflammatory.

Since I'm 'bad post reporting' people who swear too much at the other users (and it does get results, even though it may take a little time) I certainly don't want to encourage them to do more of it!

To everyone here who thinks Unverifieds should be kicked out, I think you are asses.

I am Unverified, not because I choose to be, but because when I signed up there was an error processing the information, and now I no longer have Paypal or a Debit or Credit Card.

However, I put more money towards SL than most Premium's, I work hard, rent land ALOT, have a successful store and am a sim admin for Midgar.

I work my ass off to support my SL Lifestyle, and dont deserve to be put in the same catergory as Campers and Escourts.

What part of this do you not understand?

EDIT: Lest you think I am being unkind, I am just trying to remind people who did not read the whole thread that flaming is discouraged. I am perhaps less than friendly to those who wish to swear at other users and call them names.

Personally I think putting all Unverifieds in the same boat is cruel and demeaning, I work hard on SL and dont expect to be put in the same boat as Campers and Escourts, anyone who wants all Unverifieds kicked out seriously hasnt thought about the situation for very well.

Floyd, maybe you should read the OP. Theres nothing about kicking out unverifieds.

Nothings stopping you from getting a bank account and debit card now, and if you can afford all you are doing, then you can afford a premium account. Providing a priority login queue for premiums would give them a benefit, which would make paying for it worth more than it is now, especially since all they've done lately is remove premium benefits without taking away from the cost.

Ok, now that Linden Lab has a contingency plan to implement Banking's original proposal, do I get twice the priority in this login queue since I have two premium accounts?

Just askin.



zk

By the way, thanks Torley for being "present" in these discussions. It's reassuring. Much love and tons of watermelon.

With the new system devised they are one step closer and the proposal would be met. They still need something to encourage premium growth though.

Again I ask, why you think they might consider premium accounts a priority? They don't seem to.... they keep cutting them down, not building them up.

Argent I'm not sure if you understood what i meant by "remove premium, make us all basic, to only pay land tier". What i meant was... Currently only premiums can own land as we all know. If they did away with premium thus allowing basic to own land, nobody would have to pay a subscription fee, but would have to pay tier fees if they chose to buy land. I'm aware of how it currently works hehe.

--

Back in October of 2006 i went back to basic service. I had no reason to own land anymore, since i was a estate manager in 2 island sims. Seeing that you don't need to be a premium account to own a sim (unlike mainland land), i own over 9k sq m of land in one of the sims. The owners of those sims are both basics as well. There's no premium account involved hehe. So yea premium accounts are rather useless right now. The amount of stipend isn't much better then basics either IMO. Currently it's just a extra 250, and i make that much from 1 sale in my vendors.

--


While i don't like to compare anything to WoW (a horrid game IMO) i agree with you. People pay money to play WoW. If they had free accounts, more people would play. However if paying for your account would offer a handful of benefits to the game it would encourage people to pay instead.

--

Here are some ideas of things i would like for LL to add to premium accounts. Either that or just remove premiums all together and give the reasonable stuff to basics. Everyone feel free to crit them (add/remove/change) to your liking.

1. Easier Passage through logins.
2. Boost the stipend up to at least 1k.
3. Instead of only giving 512 as lowest tier, bump it up to 1024.
4. Give better customer support for premiums.
5. Inventory bonuses mentioned on above posts.
6. The ability to hide your profile from search.
7. Better land/estate tools for premiums. Like 5k number of enties to access/ban list with spreadsheet operations to sort them. And if a account gets removed from SL, it would remove them from your lists too.
8. More customization to your UI such as locking/unlocking docking/undocking of windows, snapping to grid, skinning, or coloring, exc.
9. Avatar Names will be available as hover tips on the mini map if you hover your mouse curser over a green dot.
10. Customability over your busy mode response and what it will be triggered by (such as you can have it reply to IM's but still allow you to receive group sessions, exc).

These are just some ideas. They seam reasonable to me, but probably not to everyones fancy.

I'd go premium for those.
#1. They kinda did that now, if it ever happens I'll hit LindeX and buy L$100 to log in. If it gets more restrictive somehow that I feel I am effected, I'll bump up if I feel it's worth it
#2. Is that 1k a week? Used to be 500. Still, that in addition to some other benifits might be the straw that breaks the camel's back
#4. Added perk similar to #2
$10. This alone might make me go premium. It would depend on how customizable and such. If I had a quick way to change my busy message (like I do in YIM) as well as have a list of them so I don't have to type it out all the time and I would be premium in a heartbeat (maybe less!)

These would be my incentives to premium accounts. I think we're all reaching a basic consensus here; hopefully we'll be heard!

1. Easier Passage through logins (and really mean it! They claimed to have this contigency measure going but I still had problems this past weekend, when we were up at 32K, and saw no 'restricted' grid notice as I would expect.)
2. Restrict non-premium account avatar attachments.
3. Inventory bonuses mentioned on above posts.

I'm more concerened with lag and prevention of, rather than the UI stuff as mentioned above, but those are all good ideas too. If I HAD to narrow it down to 3, these would be it.

Oryx