Land Barons

Personally, I think many people have forgotten basics.

Community is everything.

Failing that, we could all build our castles in the sky offline for free using other software.



Those exploiting the First Land program abusively are essentially sucking the life out of our community; disincentivising new users with every gouge.

"Land Barony" indeed. More aptly called small-time hustling, I'd say. No added services like zoning or restricting resource hogs - just 'skim off the top because you can' then move on, or cut and run.


Imagine investing tens of MILLIONS of USD for the incredible grid features we have.

Only to have the userbase driven off or disillusioned one by one, simply because some hustler needed to gouge an extra 30 bucks out of new players. SO not classy.

Lets be realistic: Firstland sells at 512m and market is 9000-11000. That's around a 1750-2000% increase. Since prices vary (And it's 2:40 in the morning...) I can't give exact.

Okay since it's late here and I'm trying not to ramble... (I'll post the other points later. - I have a draft it's rambling due to needing sleep. So I'll spare you until I can do some creative editing. )

A hold would if anything stagnate the market into normal growth. Applied to *all* land except private sims and auctioned land. No one has to drop prices.

Just if you buy 12 plots and fill your tier you have to wait or tier up. Your profit margin if done correctly should remain the same. This would also allow different plots to be availible for sale at different times. Therefore actually putting some sellers at an advantage by not letting everyone 'flood' the market with new land. That right there is why the map is filled with plots for sale. The flood was grabbed up by all alts and forced to market. There are several plots that change hands from reseller to reseller and rarely are sold to a long term owner. Which really does not help to increase the value of the land by establishing the sim.

It would give the plots for sale that exist, a chance to be bought by members before rolling out the brand new land. While giving new members a decent shot at owning land. It still keeps a flow of funding to the economy but it won't cause endless inflation and also make the resellers think twice about investing in land that will result in a gradual profit instead of a quick one.

Would land sell for more in an established sim or an empty one? Where the plot is and the environment and accessibility should once again start to make a difference in pricing. I've noticed within the last year it rarely, if ever, makes a difference. Good plots are selling at 20 per sq. meter as some of the worst ones sell for 20. It would actually keep the same but change the way the market is determined. First land should not be worth 1750-2000% it's purchase price right off the bat as it's an unestablished sim.

Realistically: A vacant lot for sale in a field shouldn't be equal to a vacant lot in an inner city with heavy traffic and a stronger economy. The same should apply to land here. Perhaps I'm wrong on this, which is fine. But I know if I want a quiet house in the country it's not going to cost me as much as it does in the city unless that area in the country is established and has accrued value. In which makes the point that a hold actually isn't a death sentence to all land sales.

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There is one major bone I have to pick with a repeated suggestion:
(Not personal to anyone, just in general. I did grab the recent suggestion just for example.)



Anyone can transfer 3k to an alt. Stipends just dropped *again.* This would ensure that a new member would not have a decent shot in hell to get firstland and that the alts would reign. Only the investment would be higher and that everyone would tack an extra 3k onto land that was not subject to the firstland price increase. So essentially the alts lose nothing and spend again only the same 9.95 while all the non-increased land goes up another 3k because of the change in firstland. Thusly increasing profits for resellers, owners, businesses, and actual Land Barons alike. Anyone who bought at 3k would look to recoup the 3k, as would those who didn't pay 3k but paid 512. Once that would be done it'd put the screws to people even more than market rate does now.

That looks like an attempt at using LL for price fixing all non-firstland and would also be an attempt to monopolize the firstland market. I'm not saying you specifically but that method in general, not to mention many people who are self proclaimed 'land barons' (Mostly just short-term resellers, looking for the quick buck.) would of course back that. It's in their interests to do so, more than it's in the interest to the new members. It diminishes the small fish (In terms of competition) and damn near eliminates new members letting the alts reign and land prices to go up once more. While your tier remains the same. The 2488 more is tacked onto the prices of new and exsisting land, which in the end only really serves the interest of those into reselling by having current and new members have to pony up more cash to buy land.

Yes it'd raise the value for current land owners but most who are seriously owning land actually use it. Most won't sell their land for an extra 3k if they're using it.

The purpose of having land at 512m was to allow new members to be able to buy land at an affordable price versus having to pay market. LL realized that there was a land market. Which is why they don't make firstland availible to everyone but new accounts. They're new they are not supposed to know what to do with the land at first. They're supposed to decide. It's not the place of the resellers to try to eliminate the new members from firstland because they might not 'have a plan' for the land. The purpose of owning land is to use it for whatever you want. Not to need the blessing of elder members or the seller of the land to dictate pricing and verify reasoning for a new member to own land.

That flat out, is not anyone's place to do so. They might not have the 'appreciation' to resell land like the resellers do. That does in no way mean that they should be excluded from being able to afford firstland by raising the price, nor should they have to pay more. :/

Sorry if that was long winded. LOL Night people! ;D

I think LL just needs to get on the ball to prevent flipping. The 1 premium account per funding source is a good idea. I mean, who is gonna go to all the trouble of getting several dozen seperate debit cards just to make $30? Maybe they might use a few cards of their own, but getting tons of new cards, just for this purpose, unlikely.

Which leads me to the second part of the solution, policing. Now that it is against TOS policy, LL needs to investigate more. Back when I was flipping (and an earlier post asked how many alts I made, and the answer is my business, although I will say it was less than 10), it wasn't against the rules, I even asked the Lindens, IMing them in Live Help. They helped me get the extra accounts, as I had probs with the registration. Told them exactly what I was doing to make sure it was okay, and they had no prob, at least the two Lindens I spoke with. Now it's a violation of TOS and thus needs consequences like any other TOS violation (by the by, the other violations need more LL involvement in policiing). In response to the influx of SL patrons, LL hasn't added staff, and the staff they have has been slowly shifted more and more to concierge support. The whole Sl community needs support, not just the conceirge members (and I own 2 private islands, one I am selling, as well as keep conceirge level mainland tier).

Once this is done, LL needs to add more mainland for firstland, not as several sims on a single day, but 1 or 2 per day or every other day. This will allow those with thousands of dollars in the game bow out gracefully. They may loose a hundred or two, but not have their land be worth a third of what it was worth yesterday.

Finally, LL must be consistant. Rules must be upheld over the long haul. Release of firstland must remain steady and continual. Linden needs to get back on top of what they currently have, before adding more. My hope is that Open Source will help with that, but LL can't just let the residence take over for paid employees.

-Joy Iddinja

The serious and biggest "land barons" do not waste time trying to flip one piece of first land. We deal with big lots and make a small but respectable margin. We try to make a name for ourselves and maintain our integrity. We have zero tolerance for people exploiting the first land program. These people are not "land barons" - they are clowns looking a quick $20. And they hurt the experience for new users. The first land program is flawed, and will have to be amended. Exactly how, I'm not sure.

The problem is simple. The are X number of people who have paid for premium accounts, and LL has provided <<X first land plots. They need to provide one plot for each new paid account.

Reselling at absurd prices will still happen, but newcomers to the game would then have the option of getting land for themselves at a good price, and people who pay for a premium account can get themselves a home.

What would be the advantage of doing that? It wouldn't help solve the problem, any more than adding a 25 day or 45 day delay would, if you can hold the land that long or pay that much and still make a profit. It's just hurt the buyers... who typically wait with a non-premium account until FL opens up and they can upgrade.

Don't you mean "one first land per funding source"? Maybe this doesn't matter for people already operating at sim tier levels, but for folks down at a few thousand m2 when you're right at the edge of your tier it's crazy to have to go up a whole level just to buy the 512 that your neighbor wants to sell to you.

I like Reece's idea. Raise the cost of First Land enough so that the practice of creating alt accounts just to flip one 512 is no longer as attractive. But as long as First Land is still cheaper than a 512 at the market rate, it's still a good deal for new users.

All this does is change the cost at which it becomes profitable to start flipping.

Stipend for a month plus the starter bonus comes to, what, US$5.00 or so? That means the cost of creating the avatar to do the flip is under US$5.00. At current prices that's under L$1500. If you set the First Land price to L$3000, then as soon as FL prices go over L$4500 it's profitable to flip. FL prices are around L$8000.

And at L$3000 you'd be nuts to buy First Land instead of renting on an island. That's like paying for a whole extra month of Premium! For $3000 a month you can rent at least a 1024, and get more land, more prims, no premium or tier charges, and no casino next door. Even at L$512 for the first land it's kind of marginal at today's miserly stipend.

What you have to remember is that there is always an opportunity cost associated with taking part in certain activities. For example, I can make roughly $200 USD in a day if I just sit around buying large lots, subdividing them and reselling them. Now, I highly doubt I could make that much money doing first land, so I won't do it. That's not to say I would do it otherwise, I wouldn't. But, any economically rational person would not manipulate first land if they could make higher profits doing something else -- something which is not against the TOS. When you factor in a cost of 3000L and then the $10 Premium membership, which represents roughly 2750L, we're now talking about a overall cost of 5750L to acquire a piece of first land, minus the stipends you earn during the month, let's round it out to an even 5k. The profits for reselling it at 8k are now 3k linden (8k-5k) vs the 5k+ linden we are currently 'rewarding' them for.

That cuts the profits for doing such activities in half and will likely reduce the likelihood of near as many people abusing first land.

And, as for islands... I have sold many properties on mainland for as high as L$250,000. That's for a single property. That's about $900 USD. Now, why not just buy half an island you say? Well, the reason is simple. I have a lot of client who prefer to 'own' their land, rather than renting. No matter how honest a person in SL is, there's always the possibility they go bankrupt in the real world, pass away, etc -- things which would result in you being 'out $900 USD'.

Many people also prefer the fact that mainland is unrestricted. They don't have to worry about potentially being banned from their property for breaking the covenant, getting into an argument with the owner of the island, etc.

Now, that's not to say islands aren't suitable for some -- just that with mainland, there is less to worry about. Think of it as the difference between investing in a stock vs investing in a pool of stocks (say the stocks in a stock index like the NYSE). It may very well be a better choice to invest in a single stock if you have reason to believe a certain stock will 'take off', however, for your average person, they're much better off going with a pool of stocks that minimizes their risk. The same could be applied to mainland and islands.

Furthermore, many islands asked to be payed solely in USD, not lindens. This requires setting up PayPal accounts, linking PayPal to your bank account, etc. Even in this day and age, a great many like to give their confidential information to as few people as possible.

It's highly unlikely that implementing something along the lines I suggested would increase the value of mainland even remotely close to making it's opportunity cost similar to what it is at present.

Take, for example the current month to date land prices. The average person is paying almost L13/sqm. Now, I know for a fact that no lots that weren't first land have been sold on the market during January for under L15/sqm, except in the case of pricing errors. The average price is likely hovering around 17.5L/sqm. Now, we can extract some information from this data. If the average lot which isn't first land is going for 17.5L/sqm, the overall average is L13/sqm and first land goes for L1/sqm, then:

17.5x + 1y = 13z, where the variables x,y,z represent the quantites of land sold and the numbers 17.5, 1, and 13 represent the average price of land which isn't first land, first land, and the overall average respectively.

That being said, what can we conclude?

Clearly z, which represents the total amount of land sold, can be represented by x +y. Factoring that into the equation, we have:

17.5x + 1y = 13 (x+y) --> 17.5x + 1y = 13x + 13y.
Now, we can just subtract 1y from both sides leaving us with:
17.5x = 13x + 12y
Bringing the 13x to the left, we have:
4.5x = 12y
Therefore, x = 12/4.5(y) = 2.666...y.

This means that 2.66 times as much land is being bought not as first land, as that being bought as first land.

Put in some numbers and try it for yourself:

17.5x + 1y = ?

Suppose x = 50,000 lots sold in January as 'regular' lots.
Therefore, y = 50,000/2.666... = 18,750 lots sold as First Land
And, for simplicity, we'll assume all lots are 512s, obviously a major flaw, but I'm trying to elucidate a point, not teach rocket science


17.5L (50,000)(512) + 1L (18750)(512) = L875,000(512) + L18,750(512) = L893,750(512)

Now, L893,750(512)/(50,000sqm + 18,750sqm) = L893,750(512)/(68,750sqm) = 6656L/512sqm = 13L/sqm.
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I hope that didn't go beyond anyone. I tried to do it showing elementary algebra. As is evident when looking at the numbers, first land represents a small but significant share off the market lots sold -- roughly 38%, yet represents merely 0.38/17.5 = 2.2% of the overall monetary exchange taking place.

Now, everything was approximated, facts were left out, etc. I make no claim that this is remotely close to accurate, however, it is very clear from this rough outline that the money trading hands due to first land is relatively small compared to the money trading hands on mainland.

So, my conclusion remains that increasing the price of first land would be an effective means of while perhaps not eliminating first land profiteering, at a minimum, reducing it to an activity to those who value their time as being worth little (in monetary means).

Numbers don't lie, if you don't take my numbers for what they are, figure it out yourself, using the exact numbers on the SL website. I just picked all these numbers out of my head based on trends I've seen. I'm sure if you pick the actual numbers, you'll find my conclusions to be within 20-30% of the actual data, which would suggest that FL represents at best, 3% of the overall money trading hands in mainland purchases -- not exactly a way to get rich at the moment, and certainly not a way to get rich if LL were to significantly impose restrictions or increase the price of FL -- both would reduce this to likely 1-2%. Will people still do it? Of course. Just like in RL, you can impose strict rules but some people will find ways around them or, perhaps they are willing to take the risk and accept the penalties that may be imposed on them for their actions.

If you do this, then you are abusing LL, just as much as a flipper. As for not understanding tier hikes, I often spend an entire month just below a certain level, say just below $195, then, inevitably, a day or two before my billing date, a 12228 or so, miraculously shows up at 9.8 per meter, pushing me over into the next tier and taking a chunk of the profit I was making. $70 US is alot. Even if you are making good linden, don't assume tier means nothing to a land barron. It is the cost of doing business, but it still bites. However, overall, I know I wouldn't have a business if LL didn't make enough money to keep the grid up and running most of the time. Just because you are lower tier, and make less money in the game, doesn't give you cart blanche to abuse the system any more than it does for a barron to do so.

As for Mr. Ginsburg, I agree that no real barron is gonna do a first land flip, however, when I was just starting out, it skyrocketed me. To a baby barron, a 3000 linden benefit may not be a 5000 but it helps pay tier. There will be folks just starting out who use this method. I did. Taught me alot about the biz. However, it is a violation of TOS now, and needs policing. LL needs to make more effort in enforcign their own TOS across the board. That will keep flipping minimized.

that's why there is a first land that you could buy. It's even very cheap.

I might buy first land if there was a button like "SL has reserved this cheap first land just for you -> Buy / Visit", and if that button popped up when I log into SL. But now finding first land is just too much trouble, I could go shopping or into a disco instead. Getting first land means that I get to know what is owning land, and then I might want more land after that. So there is a reason why such a button should exist. Now I feel that the first land is just a legend. They say there is first land, some have bought first land, but you do not know where it is.

Wouldn't reserving a parcel for a new resident, and taking them to the parcel at the click of a button, make it even easier for land flippers? With this, the land flippers wouldn't even have to compete with legit first land seekers. Now they just click a button and there it is.

Well what if you could not sell the first land except at the same price you bought it. Only second land would be sellable. And 1 alt per credit card or 1 FL per card.

For those of you looking for first land and who cannot find it, there is some available right now, hurry!
EDIT: that took all of 30 minutes to sell out...

LL seems to have made a change, players who already own land are not even able to enter the first land area. I attempted to enter so I could gauge how much first land was available and it denied me access -- a good thing since newbies will no longer be scammed out of their land's value

They don't really, the Land Baron does.

Which really makes SL like some big Pyramid scheme if you think about it, A large number of people are putting money into the game and a minority are taking it out again.

Auction prices?

Yes, and, of course -- for everyone buying money to afford land, remember that 3.5% LL gets on every sale of lindens on the LindeX we do.

My point exactly.



3.5% of L$10,000 is L$350, or about a US$1.25
A dollar twenty five.
Oh, lets include the 30 cents they get from the sale of L$ going the other way and then double it (the land baron sells the L$)
We get a whopping $3.10
Now, if actual noobs were buying the land and not land flippers--who "combine" the land and make a pretty high teir--they'd make more money. SIGNIFICANTLY more, as the combined 512 plots (still split up as 512 plots, but it's total owned land we're talking here), the barron saves on teir, "costing" LL more than the $3.10 that they make from the LindeX sales.

You are missing part of the equation. Noobs often don't keep their land. It is a sandbox for a few weeks and then they sell. Also the noob is paying for a premium account. Whether he has land, so long as he doesn't downgrade, LL gets the same money. Land barrons pay tier consistantly and upgrade not downgrade. They are more reliable patrons. A 512 doesn't take you very far on 117 prims. Ultimately, you want more land, more stuff. So geting rid of barrons wouldn't be the socialist dream you all think it would. The noobs would get greedy, figure out how to become barrons and do just that. You are going to have barrons. That is a given. What type and how, is the question.

I may be getting out of the sales biz, as there is a new bot that buys land before anyone, barron or noob can get to it, if it is less than a certain value. This may sound good to many, and for right now, the prices are dropping. However, 4 months from now, they will be higher than ever if this continues. Why, because you will be going from a competative market to a limited monopoly, where a small number of barrons have complete control. I've lost lots to noobs who had been looking for land many times. They study and wait and then pounce with me. Sometimes I win, sometimes they do, sometimes another barron. You think it's hard for a noob to buy decently priced land now, with bots, not barrons, it will be IMPOSSIBLE, as noobs and barrons alike are human and can't react as fast as a computer program.

I got lucky. My land is fully terraformable and renting at more than my tier already. I have 2 lots for sale and an agreement to buy, even if I'm loosing 524 linden on the deal. Then I am liablity free. I will miss the land game though, but hopefully my island, and maybe a new club, will keep me busy. I feel sorry for those coming up though.

I highly doubt prices are going anywhere but down for quite awhile. LL is releasing way more land than is being demanded by new players and the fact that they are finally releasing lots of first land again is only adding fuel to the fire. But wait, that's not the end of it... A whole bunch of us bigger barons are, as you know, liquidating our supplies. This is, of course, further unbalancing the supply/demand relationship causing prices to plummet very quickly, as you've seen no doubt.

As for the bot, keep in mind that there is 1 major flaw with such a bot -- it can't determine what qualifies as a good lot from a bad lot, only a good price from a bad price. Now, of course it does still allow you to put a price, like say 5000L on a 512 and profit off everyone who accidently missed a zero in their listing, but how high would you realistically allow your bot to buy at, knowing there are a lot of horrible mountain plots out there? I certainly wouldn't put it over 13L/sqm. This still presents plenty of opportunity for the little barons, although I'll admit it will further unbalance the difference between smaller and larger barons. The big barons buying full sims certainly won't be affected.

I'll be the first to admit that deals are hard to come by at the moment -- for barons that is, pretty much every plot could be considered a "deal" versus what they were a couple weeks back. Most people are being foolishly greedy and trying to recoup as much of their initial investment as possible, not realizing that every day they wait will end up costing them even more, until crashing finally ceases.

It only makes sense really. I was having a good discussion a few days back with an owner of several islands. He was asking me why anyone would buy mainland, and try as I might, I really couldn't find a reason at the prices we were at -- roughly 17L/sqm at that time. A whole island can be bought for $1695. But there's that $295 tier which is so horrible right? Well how many $295s does it take to make up the difference between the $1695 and the $3300 I'm going to ballpark today's mainland sims selling for? Nevermind the fact that you could invest the savings in real life or in a SL bank to further offset the difference. Mainland just doesn't make sense at current prices. Islands come with better views, lower prices, restrictions that enable everyone to have a better life, etc. As long as you carefully read the covenant and purchase from a reputable owner, there really are no worries. I, myself have been selling off all my lots as fast as I can. I really see no reason that prices couldn't drop below 10L/sqm over the next month and I want no part in that. That doesn't mean there aren't profits to be made -- we can still look for undervalued properties, and no bot will ever be able to fully take advantage of that. And of course, I'm planning on dedicating some time each day to currency trading, a much safer bet at the moment than dealing in land. In case you're wondering, I don't own an island, nor am I affiliated with the person I had the discussion with. I'm just presenting the dismal facts as I see them. When "known" land barons are cashing out, it's time we all do. People would be wise to listen to that advice. You will regret it at a later date otherwise.

Yep. Most people, in the face of a crash, decide that they can't afford to sell at a loss, so they hang on hoping things will turn around. Then, when it's clear it won't, they start nudging their prices down, oblivious to the fact that they're well behind the curve and people will only buy the absolute cheapest land during a crash.

The way to do it is to make sure you're among the cheapest, and accept the small loss (or reduced profit, depending where you bought at) quickly, instead of prolonging the pain and losing potentially half the value of your land or worse.

I've been anticipating the drop for a few weeks now, it actually took slightly longer than I thought to get going. That said, I've gone from buying 3 sims at the weekend to having less than 10k sqm available simply by remaining competitive during the week, and then accepting a small loss on some land this morning. There are some better-known names who very nicely bought large swathes of my land yesterday, perhaps sensing a bargain that is no longer there.

I had the exact same experience. I began listing the large majority of my land for 14.3-14.5L/sqm a couple days ago -- cheap at that time, but if you look at the listings now, there are plenty of plots cheaper than 14.5. In my case, I also had a few big barons buy hundreds of thousands of linden worth, yet no regular buyers were buying -- something that further escalated my fears and made me push the lots even further. Looking back, I'm very satisfied with my decision. Sure, I wish I would have had your insight and sold them a bit earlier but I'm glad most of my lots are sold and I know that whatever happens, I'm not going to suffer much of a loss

Have you looked at the auction prices today - a couple of SIMS at over 4000 - madness.

Like Stephen I thought I could see a fall developing a couple of weeks ago - the change to Land Search has made pricing much more transparent. I do not trade in land but had a few surplus plots, I put these at fair price and sold them quickly - smiling a bit more now - but it was painful at the time.