Land Barons
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Seola Sassoon
NCD owner
Join date: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 1,036
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01-18-2007 10:11
From: Reece Gunawan You're entirely wrong on nearly everything you said. 1. I don't buy up first land. I buy up land from people that incorrectly price their land. The same happens in the real world. Put your nice house in California up for $50,000 and whine when the guy who buys it tacks on a zero. The only difference is that most people in real life have enough common sense to get an appraiser or someone knowledgeable about the real estate market to assess the value of their house in RL. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm not aware of any SL appraisal services. Maybe I have an idea there! 2. Actually, where I live properties have gone up 100% in the last 5 years, much faster than inflation and there are many people who own 10+ properties, renting them out will waiting for them to increase in value so they can profit -- it's only a smaller scale because as you said, costs associated with doing such in real life are significant. However that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. 3. Last I checked, there's roughly 11,000 parcels per sale each day -- not 3000 lol (just check the stats). 4. Just because the person signs up for a premium account and quits the next month doesn't mean they don't have a statistical impact. Their land likely becomes protected land hence having as powerful of an effect as had they remained in SL. 5. Because it takes so little money (say $10,000USD) to have a considerable market presence in SL, a 30 day no resale clause would do absolutely nothing. People won't pay the tiers because it's too financially draining? Anyone who invests $10,000+ in a game is not going to have any problems with $500 tier fees... Maybe you are, maybe you aren't buying first land. The question isn't whether you are knowledgeable about it, but that it's being done. 1. Yoyo Sensation buys up 50 first land plots that just became available. Joins a few here and there and marks the rest for sale and here you come to swoop on his low pricing thinking you are getting a great deal to markup. So you'd be part of the problem that starts at the bottom. Yoyo flips for a great profit, you buy and mark up and the person behind you buys it and marks up. And aside from that, you aren't going to get any sympathy from anyone for taking advantage of people and trying to explain it away with useless information. 2. If you are living anywhere in the US, then ALL markets have cooled and lost several percentage points. Give me an area, hell, even a state you live in and I can show you the facts. It took 5 years to double, in SL it took a month, because of people like you. 3. Those stats, include covenented listings both commercial and residential. I can't remember who, but a post in the forums detailed a very good way to indicate real time information, if anyone remembers the person or the thread, please say so. But it's evident you want to use the facts again to skew it to your argument. But hey, let's even take your side and say there is 11,000 parcels for sale... then your other argument of supply and demand is false. There's plenty of demand, just not for ridiculous pricing. 4. Do what? That made no sense. If thier land reverts to protected Linden land, regardless of what they paid for it, it goes back into the pool to be released as first land, further fueling this stupid FL snatching program, which then flips 40 times, which gets bought and left again. 5. Uh no, funny you like to point out arrogantly that people misquote and you do the same. What I said is, that it's less likely that many people would stay in the flipping game because the overhead becomes higher. Say you flip 15 parcels a month and your tier is 200. Now, to flip that same land it doubles to 400. It's not whether people have the money or not, it's weeding out the lame brains who came in to make a quick buck. Right now land isn't selling to real players as much as it is to barons flipping to each other. Raise the overhead in a market that won't stand with 50 per and you're lookin at a major deflation just to get your tier paid. By eliminating the timid competition, you'll end up with some people who can't even own any more land without having an alt have more tier than that. And just because you like to pretend you are blinging with the cash, 98% of the players out there aren't investing 10g's. Many are making it sure, but to plop 10k on a game to start off, if you did, I feel sorry for ya.
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A severed foot is the ultimate stocking stuffer. - Mitch Hedburg
I saw a commercial for an above-ground pool. It was thirty seconds long. You know why? Because that's the maximum amount of time you can depict yourself having fun in an above-ground pool - M.H.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later. - M.H.
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Seola Sassoon
NCD owner
Join date: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 1,036
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01-18-2007 10:20
From: Elanthius Flagstaff I don't know much about the real estate market but isn't it the case that prices are going up so much exactly because people are buying up homes to resell or rent out? Actually, it's because land barons and flipping to each other, hoping to cash in on someone else. I've watched quite a few parcels change hands between 4 barons for quite a while and it's not being sold to a player. In fact, one baron bought the same land twice after a few flips. In fact, from the more trustworthy of land barons, a couple are leaving mainland altogether simply because all it is right now is baron flipping. Many lots have been put up for sale that they'd owned and rented out for months and years, just to leave the craziness behind. And right now, because of the land pricing, rentals are skyrocketing on private islands to get away from some of the barons nasty ugly signs they've been putting up. From: someone I can't even begin to explain why this argument is wrong. To claim that there is no shortage of land because there are lots of pieces of land for sale at high prices is absurd. You know what. I say paying $100k for a house is ridiculous! Hell, I saw some houses for sale for over a MILLION DOLLARS! ABSURD! And don't tell me house prices are high because of shortages. We all know there are literally millions of houses for sale right now! Umm... huh? Before you run off at the mouth, read what I wrote in context, I was saying there's MORE supply than demand. As Reece indicated, which you so promptly decided to attack, his argument is that there is more demand than supply, which isn't true. So before you go looking silly, why don't you word that statement towards Reece and not me. From: someone Seriously? Monopoly? Are you just making stuff up now? There are dozens of land traders. You can't have a monopoly consisting of dozens of separate individuals. Maybe the word you were looking for was cartel?
Seola, stop! Stop! The same person is swapping land between alts and raising prices? How does that even work? It's nonsense! Come on Seola, chill out and try to think clearly. For someone who admittedly doesn't know much about real estate in SL you seem to have quite a strong opinion without knowledge, some call that nonsense. It is in fact well known in the land baron circles that people have and will continue to flip between alts to make it appear more legitimate. Especially in the case of first land. In fact, one 'first land flipper' I more than argued with said that if they did it that way, there's a longer trail instead of raising flags by buying first land and putting it up for 10k. But hey, I'd tell you easily how it worked, but since you refuse to even gain knowledge about a situation before calling others out, it'd be a waste of finger energy. From: someone Now whether prices are too high and whether they will fall soon is a whole different matter and we can all make our guesses. But please, try to apply logic and common sense instead of this silliness. I implore you to do the same. Everything you said was silly in it's own right and you came out with such strong opinions after admitting not knowing much about it. ETA: And as far as pricing being too high, they will have to fall soon, there's not much room to go up. As it is, pricing is very very close to a private island from the Lindens. Buy it and break it up and you've not only turned a profit, but gotten your plot you wished for less than the barons AND you got to pick your first set of neighbors.
_____________________
A severed foot is the ultimate stocking stuffer. - Mitch Hedburg
I saw a commercial for an above-ground pool. It was thirty seconds long. You know why? Because that's the maximum amount of time you can depict yourself having fun in an above-ground pool - M.H.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later. - M.H.
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Reece Gunawan
.com wannabe, .mobi king
Join date: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 413
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01-18-2007 11:35
Seola, you present some valid points. 1. You're correct, seeing as I don't swoop first land I really have no idea who is. So yes, I suppose it is possible I may be buying from whoever is swooping, of course not intentionally. I'm sure many people are doing the same as me without knowing. 2. I don't live in the U.S. So I won't argue your conclusions there. 3. I sell 15-20 parcels a day. My profit margins are usually only 1000-1500L on a property to ensure a quick resale. I don't make my money by being greedy and marking properties up 50%, rather I mark them up a small amount and make my money by selling 500+ parcels at the end of the month. However, yes I know this has the same effect in the end because some other "land baron" just buys my land and marks it up more so your average user ends up paying what they've been complaining about.
As a sidenote, I really don't see what's wrong with putting 10k into Second Life. If the properties I buy with my real money sell for more, I guess it was a good investment, no?
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Evil Land Baron  Currently does not own any land 
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Seek Santos
Registered User
Join date: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 8
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01-18-2007 14:38
Here is an update... My partner and I decided not to buy at present because the situation has gotten more than ridiculous. I refuse to spend hundreds of dollars out of pocket to buy virtual land. We will make our little home on a 512 and hope that this insanity either stops or LL puts a stop to it.
Those of you who stubbornly claim that land barons arent monopolizing the mainland market all you have to do is go into search and click on the parcels. Same companies come up over and over and OVER.
Those of you who try to justify blanket greed by blaming the player aka consummer, shame on you. It's like blaming the victim of a crime for not being careful enough.
I want to build and i want to create for the love of it and if my creations pay for my SL experience, so much the better, because I am not looking to make Fortune 500 like I would venture to say 90% of the"players" in this "game".
I suggested the wait period to stop this incessant flipping 0f MAINLAND and allow the rest of the "gamers" to have a small chance at being able to call a parcel "home".
I refuse to rent. We have looked at rentals and I'll be damned if i have to pay 10kL a month in rent for the privalege of not being able to name my parcel, or keep it from being boxed-in by building monstrocities or being given so many restrictions in covenant it makes my curly hair straight. I went to visit a friend of mine and i was given the 15 second warning to get off the land, and she had to frantically ask her landlord to allow me on the access list. If those of you who are arguing that there is no problem don't see how wrong that is, well frankly its because you are contributing to the problem.
And I ask again... when is first land going to become available and what measures are going to be put in place to stop alts from buying it up and flipping it for 10k, 10 mins later?
Oh wait, right. You snooze you lose....
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Reece Gunawan
.com wannabe, .mobi king
Join date: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 413
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01-18-2007 15:36
You're absolutely right Seek. I personally decided to sell a large chunk of my properties at cost so that I can buy myself an island and a mainland sim. Listed them about 1 hour ago and already roughly 30% of them are sold. Clearly they are being bought up by barons but I really couldn't care less I'm tired of having so many properties.
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Evil Land Baron  Currently does not own any land 
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Joy Iddinja
Registered User
Join date: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 344
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The Haves and the Have Nots
01-19-2007 01:59
This fighting is all about that. The 'land barons' as they are sometimes called here, have, and many non-barons do not. Yes, this is a game, but it also has a legitimate economy that some use to augment their income, myself included. However, picking on those of us that use land speculation doesn't solve a thing. Linden Labs could flood the market with land, driving down prices.
I have proposed incentivizing private island owners to convert their islands that they don't want into mainland with a condition to sell off a certain percentage, thus saving the Lindens from having to buy new servers. which they claim is time consuming and part of the reason they are so slow in bringing up enough land, first or new sim. I've been ignored.
The Lindens do have ultimate control, so rather than trying to make them 'punish' the barons for being haves, why not go to the source of the problem, the lack of land? The Lindens bring out 55 sims and pat themselves ont he back, meanwhile the population has grown over 2 million, most of that within the last 6 months. Even if nobody flipped a single 16m, 55 sims wouldin't enough, and first land has disappeared. They say it's to prevent flipping. If that's the case, then they need more staff to monitor flipping, now that it's a vialation of the TOS. They need more staff to set up servers. They need more staff to try to keep up with us all and listen to our suggestions to solve problems. Open sourcing isn't gonna do anything if they don't consider the solulutions presented. I know four people who have already submitted code to improve the viewer, but all the code they are using is the bug fixes. In short, loyal residence do their job for them, so they don't have to hire staff to do it themselves.
In addition, did it ever occur to those of you who are complaining about prices, that these high prices might serve the Lindens. If someone is serious about buying a large parcel and starting a biz, they have to pay more RL money to buy lindens. The high land prices weed out poor folks, giving LL a more desirable demographic to shove in the faces of big corporations like Dell. The high prices raise the final bids on the auctioned land and make people less likely to quit the game completely if tier is raised on them. Higher land prices look good in the press, a sign of Second Life's prosperity.
It's the oldest trick of power, get people to focus on the actions of those around them, so they fail to notice the actions of those above. It is far easier to blame a barron who has no real power over you, then challenge the people who could change the system, but who could also cancel your account, take away your in-world investment so far, and bar you from the game forever. I know what it is like to be angry at LL, but those of us who buy and sell land are not monsters. We invest in virtual real estate. To us this is a biz (I tend to dawdle and play and buy hair and clothes, etc, but that is my failing). To LL it is a biz too. If you want to change the system, you have to go after those that own the system. Deluge the Lindens with emails asking for more land. Maybe boycott SL like so many businesses did during the copybot incident. Pointing fingers is easy. Changing things is hard work.
-Joy Iddinja
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Reece Gunawan
.com wannabe, .mobi king
Join date: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 413
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01-19-2007 02:08
I couldn't agree more. I remember reading your thread in Linden Answers awhile back about proposing that unused PI be converted to mainland. I couldn't agree more! Seems only fair also that PI owners who would like to actually sell their land for good need not go through third parties whos reliability is difficult to ascertain.
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Evil Land Baron  Currently does not own any land 
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Seek Santos
Registered User
Join date: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 8
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01-20-2007 08:43
The "fighting" as you call it Joy(mind you I was not aware of a fight but a discussion) is not about the haves and the have nots. It's not about jealousy or bitterness. It's about acknowledgeing that there is a problem in SL with Mainland aquisition.
I have more than enough funds to buy any piece of property i want but i refuse to buy into a market that is made ridiculously high by those "haves" who cannot get enough. There is nothing wrong with free enterprise however there needs to be a stopgap in place for people who wig out on greed.
Some of you who have insisted on comparing this to real life must also acknowledge that in RL there are rules and regulations and organizations in place that insure that everything is done above board and according to law. That is not in place in SL. The land barons set the prices amongst them, leaving the "havenots" with very little choice but to remain homeless or to give in to the exorbitant prices.
I cannot make someone have a conscience or a sense of business ethics. I can only voice my concern and ask those who can, namely LL, to put something in place thats enforces a business standard and not leave it to the individual's scruples.
As for the concept that these ridiculous price hikes in any way serving LL, it is bogus. LL does not get a cut off the price, they receive the same amount in tier and land value for every sim. If the new owner decides to cut it up and quadruple their profit, the funds do not go into LL's bank. AND if you do not see that this is in essence undercutting SL viability there is nothing i can say to convince you. Just consider this, if the vast majority of players get frustrated with this situation and leave the game, who exactly will lose then?
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Joy Iddinja
Registered User
Join date: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 344
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01-20-2007 22:23
Governments do regulate business, but most capitolism is based on government staying OUT of business. Business can't thrive as efficiently when shackled and Govt. that want to promote business only intercede when business interests become harmful to the public. A higher price and harder choices, don't hurt the SL population. Markets don't have a set 'right' price. They bare what they will bare. Greed is not excessive and ethics not lacking in the SL barron community, from what I see of it, and I am on the inside. Wanting to make the best possible money is human nature, and most realtors I know are not using underhanded tactics to get the sale. They just fix up the land, and sell it. If the prices do get too high, the market for land will disappear, the prices will go down, end of story. SL ain't socialist. And LL does indeed get more money from higher land prices. when most people buy mainland, they use LINDENS. Lindens aren't a real currency, except in SL. However the money they use to buy lindens most definitely is. If people stop buying land due to higher prices, I'm sure linden will start putting out new first land, artificially driving down prices to the point where there wasn't a problem, not to a cheap price, but to the point where they make the most money. By adding land slowly, they keep prices high, so they can get the most money for the fictional currency Lindens, and yet, make sure that there are people buying. It's a balancing act. Economics always is. From: Seek Santos The "fighting" as you call it Joy(mind you I was not aware of a fight but a discussion) is not about the haves and the have nots. It's not about jealousy or bitterness. It's about acknowledgeing that there is a problem in SL with Mainland aquisition.
I have more than enough funds to buy any piece of property i want but i refuse to buy into a market that is made ridiculously high by those "haves" who cannot get enough. There is nothing wrong with free enterprise however there needs to be a stopgap in place for people who wig out on greed.
Some of you who have insisted on comparing this to real life must also acknowledge that in RL there are rules and regulations and organizations in place that insure that everything is done above board and according to law. That is not in place in SL. The land barons set the prices amongst them, leaving the "havenots" with very little choice but to remain homeless or to give in to the exorbitant prices.
I cannot make someone have a conscience or a sense of business ethics. I can only voice my concern and ask those who can, namely LL, to put something in place thats enforces a business standard and not leave it to the individual's scruples.
As for the concept that these ridiculous price hikes in any way serving LL, it is bogus. LL does not get a cut off the price, they receive the same amount in tier and land value for every sim. If the new owner decides to cut it up and quadruple their profit, the funds do not go into LL's bank. AND if you do not see that this is in essence undercutting SL viability there is nothing i can say to convince you. Just consider this, if the vast majority of players get frustrated with this situation and leave the game, who exactly will lose then?
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Draco18s Majestic
Registered User
Join date: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2,744
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01-21-2007 02:00
From: Joy Iddinja And LL does indeed get more money from higher land prices. when most people buy mainland, they use LINDENS. So, I have L$10k right this very moment and I buy your land for 10k and you now have +L$10k and LL made money how? How is that different from my having 10k and buying your land for 2k, did LL make any less money in that transaction?
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Joy Iddinja
Registered User
Join date: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 344
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01-21-2007 02:49
To get those L$10k, you had to pay approximately $37 US dollars. That went to Linden Labs, unless you bought it from another player, who would have gotten the lindens they sold you from Linden Labs. If the same size parcel is sold at L$2k, LL would only make approximately $7.41 US. Since Linden Labs is a company, their 'economy' is different from a real world economy. Selling 'money' gives them money, and the higher the prices on land go, without buyership slacking off significantly, the more money LL makes. And that is only the direct benefit. As I mentioned in another post, people who are willing to pay $37 US dollars for virtual land, are more likely to be in a better demographic niche, from an RL marketer or corporations perspecitive, as well as from a media outlet's perspective, in short, they lend LL credibility with Second Life, which draws corporations such as IBM and American Outfitters. There are a few benefits to higher land prices for LL. This is not to say there aren't opportunity costs, in some buyer loss, but every company must balance competing factors to arrive at maximum profit. From: Draco18s Majestic So, I have L$10k right this very moment and I buy your land for 10k and you now have +L$10k and LL made money how? How is that different from my having 10k and buying your land for 2k, did LL make any less money in that transaction?
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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01-21-2007 03:26
From: Joy Iddinja To get those L$10k, you had to pay approximately $37 US dollars. That went to Linden Labs, unless you bought it from another player, who would have gotten the lindens they sold you from Linden Labs. LL sold just under 200 million worth of L$ in December, while LindenX has an average volume of 40 million a day. Or: 1 out of every 6 L$ bought came from LL in December, not quite so impressive. If you accept the fact that Currency Linden is only trying to regulate the market, LL can't count on any income they're currently making from L$ sales. If there's a sudden crash of the exchange rate they can't sell anything. At the same time, small land owners are paying a whole lot more than the land barons are so it's likely that high land prices actually hurt since it keeps people for owning land at all, or tiering up. 1 land baron owning one sim: $195 (tier) + $10 (premium) = $205 128 premiums owning 512m² (one sim's worth): 128 x $10 (premium) = $1280 64 owning 1024m²: 64 x $10 (premium) + 64 x $5 (additional 512m² tier) = $960
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Tez Yohkoh
Registered User
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 15
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01-21-2007 03:57
From: Usagi Musashi There is one nut running around the forums screaming to remove the limit. Now I don`t and I have Not heard any such BS that person was is trying to spread rumors or removing the limit. Its just Forum rumors. Why don`t people just use one avie role and role play with it and thats that!. Because One AV name doesn't suit multiple Genres of Roleplay, Usagi as a Klingon or Medevil name? If we could change or "mask" our names it would be great. And also it reduces the number or IM's you recieve from "aquaintances" so one dedicated AV can build in peace with only a handfull of close contacts knowing you are online. It also allows you to have multiple backup copies of things and not put all your eggs in one basket.
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Joy Iddinja
Registered User
Join date: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 344
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01-21-2007 04:01
You are assuming land barrons own entire sims worth of land and keep them out of circulation. Land barrons sell land, so LL gets our tier, plus the tier of the person who buys and keeps. Also, ultimately, ALL lindens come from LL. Like land they may have changed hands a few dozen times, but their sole source is LL. This is not real money, where value is based in comparison to other currencies and what not. LL monopolizes linden output. They are the control. From: Kitty Barnett LL sold just under 200 million worth of L$ in December, while LindenX has an average volume of 40 million a day. Or: 1 out of every 6 L$ bought came from LL in December, not quite so impressive. If you accept the fact that Currency Linden is only trying to regulate the market, LL can't count on any income they're currently making from L$ sales. If there's a sudden crash of the exchange rate they can't sell anything.
At the same time, small land owners are paying a whole lot more than the land barons are so it's likely that high land prices actually hurt since it keeps people for owning land at all, or tiering up.
1 land baron owning one sim: $195 (tier) + $10 (premium) = $205 128 premiums owning 512m² (one sim's worth): 128 x $10 (premium) = $1280 64 owning 1024m²: 64 x $10 (premium) + 64 x $5 (additional 512m² tier) = $960
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Tez Yohkoh
Registered User
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 15
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01-21-2007 04:06
Yes, there is some ridiculous pricing happening, I brought 2000m exactly where I wanted it for $22k there was 2000m next to it for sale by a SUPERsized sign realestate for $88k and it eventually sold to someone for something. The same SUPERsized sign company is selling heaps of 16m lots for around $10k too.
The reason Lindens don't tack another 50% onto their prices themselves for profit is I suppose to help new people buy into the market, not to give the profit to some one to make RL income.
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Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
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01-21-2007 04:27
From: Draco18s Majestic So, I have L$10k right this very moment and I buy your land for 10k and you now have +L$10k and LL made money how? How is that different from my having 10k and buying your land for 2k, did LL make any less money in that transaction? You have $2k in your account and see a $10k lot to buy, you pull in a another $8k from Uncle VISA, the seller who originally paid $3k for it then sucks $7k out into his Paypal account as profit for RL. Because they want and can make a living on playing video games  Having said that the risk of having lots of land here is it all could be near worthless if a big company released a similar game with more bling and suddenly sucked 50% of the player base to it. I would have no qualms about kissing my smaller investment and all my stuff goodbye I guess, though would probably give it to a newbie or such.
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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01-21-2007 11:31
From: Seola Sassoon In a month, the pricing has nearly doubled, and most of the land that's for sale is merely in another baron's hands. Which means two things: (1) Making people wait 45 days before selling the land STILL wouldn't make it unprofitable to use alts to flip the land. Limiting first land sales by IP would. (2) Those land barons are going to be hurting when the bubble bursts. I say, wait the bubble out.
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Annabelle Vandeverre
Heading back to Real Life
Join date: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 609
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My past 30 days in SL
01-21-2007 13:14
I am completely against any artificial controls on land ownership that would make anyone hold their first land for a certain amount of time before selling it. I have been a landowner for a grand total of 30 days now - let me give you a recap to demonstrate why it's good for the SL economy to allow the free market to work.
1. Bought my first land in the wee hours of the morning a few days before Christmas. 2. A couple days later, bought another 512 plot that my neighbor was selling for a reasonable market price. 3. Had fun terraforming and building and landscaping and seeing what was what. 4. Decided to put my developed 1024 plot (objects included) up for sale after a week or so at an inflated price to see if someone would be willing to pay a whole lot o' money for developed land. 5. It sold after a couple of days, to my amazement, at the inflated price. And before you throw stuff at me for selling land at 3x what I paid for it, remember I put in a lot of work here. 6. Bought an undeveloped 1024 with a coastal view and pocketed a big profit. 7. Went shopping!!! (Supporting you merchants and vendors out there.) 8. Developed my new lot. 9. Put that land up for sale at an inflated price after a little while to see if I could repeat step 5. 10. This time it didn't work. But that's okay, because I didn't see any land out there that I liked better than what I have. 11. Developed my land some more. Realized that I need MORE! The bug has bit. NEED MORE PRIMS! 12. Bought a non-adjacent 512 plot in my sim just this morning from a previous poster in this thread - it was one of the cheapest 10 512-lots listed in a mature region this morning. 13. Now I'm happy for a while.
I would not have done any of this past the first step if there was a 30-day limit on holding first land. But since I was free to enter the real estate market, many people have benefited - the landowners and merchants I've been able to purchase things from with my profits, and of course Linden Labs. We shall see what the next 30 days holds.
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Joy Iddinja
Registered User
Join date: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 344
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01-21-2007 15:21
Yes it is. Everyone wants to become the next Acshe Chung (I just want to pay for college and live the good life in world, but I've never really aspired to great wealth in RL. Too many headaches there, IMHO.). And the barrons that buy and sell land, making a living, help promote the SL mystique that you can virtually live here and quit your day job. you are right that they don't take more to keep from ruining the market, but that is one of several factors. You are looking fof an easy answer and economics doesn't work that way. Multimple factors get balanced to create maximum profit. Rarely is the solution cut and dry. From: Tez Yohkoh Yes, there is some ridiculous pricing happening, I brought 2000m exactly where I wanted it for $22k there was 2000m next to it for sale by a SUPERsized sign realestate for $88k and it eventually sold to someone for something. The same SUPERsized sign company is selling heaps of 16m lots for around $10k too.
The reason Lindens don't tack another 50% onto their prices themselves for profit is I suppose to help new people buy into the market, not to give the profit to some one to make RL income.
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Joy Iddinja
Registered User
Join date: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 344
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01-21-2007 15:27
Precisely. I have inworld dreams too. I started my biz to get a larger lot of land for myself. Then it just took off. Now I am on the verge of selling one of my private islands for a tidy profit and finally getting the best land in SL for a kick butt beach house (assuming the seller will sell). Most barrons are into it for the money, but there is no crime in it, and I do take some money out into paypal as well. Why shouldn't someone make a living at video games. It's the information age. Sweat equity is dying. From: Annabelle Vandeverre I am completely against any artificial controls on land ownership that would make anyone hold their first land for a certain amount of time before selling it. I have been a landowner for a grand total of 30 days now - let me give you a recap to demonstrate why it's good for the SL economy to allow the free market to work.
1. Bought my first land in the wee hours of the morning a few days before Christmas. 2. A couple days later, bought another 512 plot that my neighbor was selling for a reasonable market price. 3. Had fun terraforming and building and landscaping and seeing what was what. 4. Decided to put my developed 1024 plot (objects included) up for sale after a week or so at an inflated price to see if someone would be willing to pay a whole lot o' money for developed land. 5. It sold after a couple of days, to my amazement, at the inflated price. And before you throw stuff at me for selling land at 3x what I paid for it, remember I put in a lot of work here. 6. Bought an undeveloped 1024 with a coastal view and pocketed a big profit. 7. Went shopping!!! (Supporting you merchants and vendors out there.) 8. Developed my new lot. 9. Put that land up for sale at an inflated price after a little while to see if I could repeat step 5. 10. This time it didn't work. But that's okay, because I didn't see any land out there that I liked better than what I have. 11. Developed my land some more. Realized that I need MORE! The bug has bit. NEED MORE PRIMS! 12. Bought a non-adjacent 512 plot in my sim just this morning from a previous poster in this thread - it was one of the cheapest 10 512-lots listed in a mature region this morning. 13. Now I'm happy for a while.
I would not have done any of this past the first step if there was a 30-day limit on holding first land. But since I was free to enter the real estate market, many people have benefited - the landowners and merchants I've been able to purchase things from with my profits, and of course Linden Labs. We shall see what the next 30 days holds.
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Draco18s Majestic
Registered User
Join date: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2,744
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01-21-2007 15:31
From: Tegg Bode You have $2k in your account and see a $10k lot to buy, you pull in a another $8k from Uncle VISA, the seller who originally paid $3k for it then sucks $7k out into his Paypal account as profit for RL. Because they want and can make a living on playing video games  I said I have 10k right now. Both scenarios were based on the same 10k of L$. And yes, I know you can make a living in Second Life. I personally know the person responsible for getting Daryth Kennedy back into SL making dragon avatars, managing two islands, and making enough money off of make it her real job. There's also a nice book called Play Money: Or how I quit my day job and made millions selling virtual loot. Mostly focuses on WoW and Ultima Online, but there's a small bit on SL. From: Joy Iddinja To get those L$10k, you had to pay approximately $37 US dollars. That went to Linden Labs, unless you bought it from another player, who would have gotten the lindens they sold you from Linden Labs. If the same size parcel is sold at L$2k, LL would only make approximately $7.41 US. Um, no. To get that 10k I sold things--clothes, gadgets, gizmos, knicknacks and dragon naughty bits... I haven't spent a dime in my entire time in SL. Check my profile, "Payment info on file" not "Payment info used" I have a giant mass of weath, almost enough to buy an island (a brand spanking new one). Well, ok, half an island minus the teir. Buying L$ isn't the only way to get some. There's my L$50/week stippend too--that's L$3900 in my estimation, just over a THIRD of the 10k I'd need to hypothetically buy the imaginary land plot I've been talking about (not counting any alts I have who also get a stippend). So, I ask again, how does LL profit from higher priced land?
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Annabelle Vandeverre
Heading back to Real Life
Join date: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 609
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01-21-2007 16:48
From: Draco18s Majestic I Um, no. To get that 10k I sold things--clothes, gadgets, gizmos, knicknacks and dragon naughty bits... I haven't spent a dime in my entire time in SL. Check my profile, "Payment info on file" not "Payment info used" I have a giant mass of weath, almost enough to buy an island (a brand spanking new one). Well, ok, half an island minus the teir. Buying L$ isn't the only way to get some. There's my L$50/week stippend too--that's L$3900 in my estimation, just over a THIRD of the 10k I'd need to hypothetically buy the imaginary land plot I've been talking about (not counting any alts I have who also get a stippend).
So, I ask again, how does LL profit from higher priced land? I came late to this discussion, but I think I can answer. You have 10k from selling things - so LL didn't profit from you buying Lindens. But, I would venture that many of the people who bought things from you bought Lindens to do it. LL profits from their transaction fees. Say you spend that theoretical 10k on a piece of land - the person you buy it from now has more money to spend on other things. Possibly, though, they cash out that extra amount they made in profit - again LL makes money on transaction fees. A little bit adds up over multiple people/transactions. So it's more of an indirect effect I think. Congratulations on making lots of money in SL - I'm hoping I can eventually find a way to make enough to pay my way through.
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Issues Ambassador
Ambassador of Issues.....
Join date: 6 Apr 2005
Posts: 90
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01-21-2007 17:18
More often than not the land is not owned by a land Baron, but someone looking for the quick buy and resale of the land. Land Barons know that land is an investment. I do think this is a good idea. Of course when applicable to first land specifically, but also some other land. IMHO not auctions as usually you have a good chance when placing a bid and the option to place another. If someone wants to wait until the auction ends and pay through the nose in auctions then they should be able to resell the land. Unlike mainland where if you want it and pay and drop the cash on it, you get it with no competition. I'd like to see about 25 days locked for no resale. That way tier is still paid but also so if someone decided to resell the land to avoid tier for the next month they have 5 days to do so. Which also means that if you're asking top dollar, chances are you can't dump the land within 5 days. Which gives the option to abandon the land or invest in another month of holding it so you can sell it for what you want. If someone sells it dirt cheap to ditch the land the next owner needs to wait at least 25 days to sell the land again. There should be some actual risk and investment involved. What exists now is barely either considering anyone can buy cheap land and inflate the price sell it within a week, then do it all over again four more times within the month and pay the same amount of tier. Meanwhile five people were screwed because they wanted those plots. Not because of 'market makers' in the land business, but because of what is starting to look like the price fixing of land amongst some resellers and some land barons. All they do is point the finger at each other for the inflation bubble when confronted stating it's fair competition. You can disagree. Please by all means do. But that really looks like price fixing to me. I could be wrong. *shrug* But I also see a ton of plots for sale on the map. So clearly we're not talking about a shortage of plots to sell. It'll make those who are not barrons but looking for the quick buck and inflating prices think twice about buying that cheap land and *having* to hold on to it for over 25 days. Real Land Barrons will know how to work within that system to still keep making a profit. As well as working to try to achieve the goal of making land more affordable for everyone. If someone doesn't like that idea. Fine. It's my thought on it. Disagree as you see fit. My perspective will remain unchanged. 
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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01-21-2007 18:51
From: Issues Ambassador I'd like to see about 25 days locked for no resale. That would do *nothing* to stop people from creating debit-card alts and swooping on land with them: they would just hold the land for 25 days then sell it to their main alt and tier down. The best way to do that is to lock first-land purchases to one per originating IP per month.
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Reece Gunawan
.com wannabe, .mobi king
Join date: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 413
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01-21-2007 20:59
From: Argent Stonecutter That would do *nothing* to stop people from creating debit-card alts and swooping on land with them: they would just hold the land for 25 days then sell it to their main alt and tier down. The best way to do that is to lock first-land purchases to one per originating IP per month. I agree. Besides, as long as first land is L$512 and mainland is trading at roughly 16-20/sqm, a 512 is worth roughly 8-10k lindens which is worth plenty more than a premium membership assuming you're selling at 266-268L/sqm. And if you just trade it to your main who has a $195 or higher tier, it isn't even costing him $2usd a month to hold onto that land until it sells. My personal opinion -- why not charge more for first land. Stipends are L300 a week, why not make first land cost say, 3000L. Most people aren't experienced enough to really know what to do with their account right off, so forcing them to either a) put cash into the game immediately, or b) allow stipends to accrue before buying the land, would likely lead to more knowledgeable first land owners, first land owners getting tricked less often into selling their land for significantly under market averages and of course, drastically increasing the opportunity cost of creating multiple accounts solely for first land profiteering. If you were to tack on a (insert amount here) day restriction on trades, if properly executed, this could theoretically make first land profiteering not worth the effort or even not profitable, while still providing new players with land at a reasonable price and the ability to make some extra lindens should they decide to sell their land at some point. Now, I'll admit I am a land baron myself, however, even us land barons could benefit from this. Less cheap lots will mean that businesses who want 1024s, 2048s,... will be less likely to just go to where first land is being made currently available and lowball offers off these new players, rather they will be forced to pay higher rates. Likewise, less first land could be created as LL would only have to account for "new player demand", rather than attempting to factor in said profiteers into the equation and ending up short due to not wanting to encourage said profiteers from continuing such activities. Less first land inevitably means less land period. And less land, while providing enough new land for new players benefits everyone except those wanting to upgrade in the future to larger parcels. It benefits those who own land by protecting the value of their investment. Likewise, it benefits the new players who are now able to purchase their first piece of land at a good price. It also forces more people to pay what the market will bear, thus aiding us land barons and smaller land speculators equally. Now, one could argue that those upgrading to larger parcels eventually represent a significant portion of the SL community. To say otherwise is foolish, as any land baron knows from repeat sales to the same customer. However, if you think about it, those who are upgrading obviously a) have made enough lindens in SL to be able to afford a larger lot, in which case, this will merely take a bit more time should prices increase or b) enjoy SL so much that they wish to own more land so that they can continue their adventures in cyberspace. From what I've encountered in my brief stay in SL and extended stay in other MMOG, those who truly enjoy SL often greatly value adjacent parcels of land, and it's highly unlikely that these types of players would be affected if the average 512 went up by say 500-1000L representing a 1-2L/sqm change in value due to less profiteering and less new players reselling below market average. The only significant party that may be affected are businesses which are making little income and hence have to bear out the difference. When you think about it, which businesses are most likely to be greater than 2048sqm? I think we can all agree that a one time purchase of a lot smaller than 2048sqm will likely be unaffected by the above difference. A large chunk of the larger businesses are of course retail shops and "mature" businesses. Now, most retail shops are either operated for profit, in which case, if you're currently making a profit, you likely still will be considering your tier is considerably higher than the difference between such a price increase and I highly doubt many people would run businesses for profit for less than say $50usd per month unless this business is either a) not intended for profit whatsoever, or b) intended not only to make a bit of pocket change, but also to provide a service/good that the creator feels is essential to SL and feels a lot of pride in owning their own retail outlet. Now, those who own a retail outlet because they love the idea of seeing other people wear their clothing, using the avatars they created, etc are highly unlikely to consider such an increase inacceptable. So, in reality, the only people truly hurt by this are those who are trying to run businesses solely for profit (obviously not businesses involving buying/reselling land). Now if you're solely trying to run your business for profit and your earnings are so small that this would be a deathblow, chances are your stay in SL won't be that long to begin with assuming you continue to regard SL as a business venture intended only for making money. Now, there's nothing wrong with those people, I'm quite aware that there are hundreds, maybe thousands who may regard SL as solely that, however from an econimics standpoint, they are a minority -- a fraction of the SL population representing an even smaller fraction of the SL economy. To sum that up -- I know a lot of you skip to the end, if anyone needs to be hurt by a business decision, in which such a business decision is necessary, which business decision is the "optimal" one to make? a) Hurt the new players who will one day represent a substantial portion of the SL community? b) Hurt land barons and real estate speculators, many of whom pour thousands of real dollars into SL, aid in balancing the linden (through paying tier fees, auction fees by converting lindens to usd), are responsible for many off the "success stories" that are becoming ever so prominent on the web -- further attracting more new players, partition the land into subsections that new and existing players can afford? Remember, even if land was 6L/sqm like it was a few months back, would want to pay L 380,000+ for an entire sim because LL doesn't have time to make small parcels for everyone and far less people are choosing to buy sims because there is little profit in it and those who were previously land barons feel LL betrayed them -- it is highly unlikely that many of them would continue making large investments ingame, hence forcing players to buy up large chunks of land -- significantly larger than they need and don't forget that when you want to upgrade to a larger lot, prepare to have to wait a week or two for your current one to sell because land speculators just aren't interested... c) Hurt current land owners by sending a massive influx of land in the game, instantaneously deflating prices? d) Hurt small businesses who simply cannot afford to purchase more land should land become more expensive due to restrictions on availability and reselling of first land? Now if you had to choose between those 4, I think the choice is rather evident. That being said, I think the best approach would be to do something along the lines of what Argent Stonecutter, while raising first land prices to 3000L or a price somewhere in that vicinity to prevent first land profiteering.
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Evil Land Baron  Currently does not own any land 
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