Land Barons

I am not sure if this is the place for this thread but i have been looking at the forums and this seemed the most viable choice.

My partner in life and i are looking for a lot to buy on mainland with no covenant. Nothing too big just sufficient for our needs. We have been looking for two weeks now, and i have observed this alarming trend of land piracy as i will call it. We hesitate 2 minutes and the land is snapped up by a land baron and 2 minutes later put up for sale at a minimum of 10k higher. This is the land of opportunity and free enterprise i realize, and all is fair in land and business, but what of those of us who just want a piece of land for a home?

Would it be not possible to allocate some land for us and put in one clause that whoever buys that land cannot resell before 30 days are up?

This might very well sound extremely niave, but it is food for thought.

Looking forward to seeing what others think.

You're right, completely. I've seen multiple times where land goes on sale, not even 2 minutes later theirs someone there, buying it at the price it's at, and then boom it's on sale right away for double what they bought it for. This is becoming a rising trend, and it's totally not fair to those of us who don't want to spend hundreds of US dollars just to buy land on a game full of a bunch of money hungry players. If there was a policy where they couldn't, for 10 days, at LEAST, where they couldn't sell land that they JUST bought, it might help those of us strugging to find a piece of land that isn't riduculously priced.

Thank you for starting this poll.

/me votes yes

edit: if this has already been added to the feature voting stuff and somebody knows the number for it, please post it here so folks who haven't done the official vote can.

Unless you're looking at 8,000m+ lots, no land barons do not put prices up 10k+.
Most land barons I know mark up prices 500-2,000L on a 512sqm plot which amounts to roughly 2-8usd. Now if that is too much cash to pony up, obviously you have to rethink your whole business idea. The problem isn't the barons, it's with people who are willing to pay the price. Case in point: 30 day no resale clause -- baron holds the land for 30 days and now resells it even higher to make up for his time. As long as people are willing to pay the prices, it won't change anything.

Actually the lots we're talking about are 4096 and it did go up in 10k. Yes i know they buy it. they can do whatever they like, and as long as there are peeps who will buy at those prices, they can do whatever they want. Simple supply and demand, im just sick of the you're SOL attitude. The alternative is to "rent" I guess but that option is not what we want.

Oh well... let free enterprise thrive. =]

Reece, I'm not sure where you got your info, but there are no 512's that are under 3k right now in world and only a few at that, that are sammiched in the ugliness of land baron signs. Most that are even halfway decent are 8k+

I forever ago proposed this for the 512 firstlands which is where it trickles down from. The starting land you don't have to pay barons for.

After talking to my in game brother today, he couldn't find a 512 that was flat for less than 10kL.

Agree and yes!

If the current realtors in SL didn't buy up land, someone new would figure it out. If prices are too high, people will stop buying. This is entertainment, so there is no perfect inelasticity here. No buyers will push sellers to lower the prices. Some will even leave the industry all together. This will continue till land is well priced again, and the market will begin another rise. That is the way markets work there is no 'good' or 'right' or 'correct' price. The market will bare what it will bare. In RL, my parents couldn't 'buy' a home till their early fifties. They rented. If prices are too high to buy you rent or squat, same as in RL. Maybe get some pals together and group rent to save up your lindens. When I had rental homes, I had 3 newbies who shared one of my houses, roomates. They saved, bought a plot I got them a good deal on, and now have a shop. SL isn't a socialist state, thankfully.

As for flipping, I will admit to having done it once or twice in my noob days. However, LL is working on limiting the amount of accounts one person can have, or how many can be charged to a single funding source, which according to them is why they have held back on first land recently. This should virtually eliminate flipping in that regard, but implementing takes time.

-Joy Iddinja

OH JOY!!!!!!! i can see it now 50 million users on sl nice way to inflate the numbers a . that are on one charge!.....In the old days they limied 4 to a payment source ( then later 5 ). For the reason of people abusing or griefting others.
Now if this is the case........oh brother! Free accounts are bad enough but making unlimited paying account on one cc or system..........unreal.

BTW you can always call CS and explain the reason why you would need more then 5 names to one account right? This is what puzzles me, they leave that open to people. So why doesnt people take advantage this system of that instead of screaming for unlimited account role playing avies on sl? mades to sence..

Seola - he really can't be looking that hard - plots ARE expensive but there is a lot (sorry for the pun) of 512m land at less than 10k.

My "favourite" baron is not a baron at all (perhaps a baroness) but search for Sarah Nerd, she doesn't need me blowing her trumpet but I have always found that she finds good land, yes gives it a mark up, but manages to keep the overall price down.

I have bought from her (I would buy from anyone f the price is right) a number of times.

I have land for sale (and no this is not a sales pitch - SL doesn't need that) all at less than the price you say.

To find land you must, must , must use land search and weed out island rentals - its slow but it works - one other reason for mentioning Sarah is that I was doing just what I recommend (to decide where to set my own land prices) and trawling through mainland plots starting at the lowest price - the first few I hopped through, there were Sarah and Elanthius Flagstaff (I doubt they are good friends) but the tools are there.

I say again - yes land is expensive - but don't overstate the case - finding the "cheapest and best" is hard work but possible (and thats what the land baronesses do)

I just wanted to add that sensible land barons don't just double the price of whatever they bought or automatically add 10k. They set the price at whatever the market will bear. So if you sell your land for 10k too cheap then it will get resold at 10k more. If you sell it for 100k too cheap then that's what will be added.

It's not a case of land barons just raising prices arbitrarily. They look at a parcel, calculate what it will sell for and then set the price accordingly. In other words, the buyer comes first. If there is a demand for 512s at 10k then that's what the sensible land baron will price them at regardless of the buy price.

Also, I'm not sure what a 30 day hold on land would do because I'm not an economist and I'm pretty sure you guys aren't either. Markets are complicated things though and I wouldn't be surprised at all if a restriction like that simply forced land prices upwards. Arbitrary restrictions decrease supply and to my simple mind that means a rise in prices.

I think I can find my land with the SL land search tool, so I do not need baronesses.

Also a land baron cannot put the land for sale lower than a price that is higher than the purchase price. There will always be new land for sale, and a baron can purchase the land then, because LL needs to keep the price reasonable. The land baron will not use the land for anything but just for selling. So whatever the initial price, it will go higher than that 100% sure.

Now 99.9% of all the new land goes through land barons, and some old land too, and especially the most nice ones end up having prices mindlessly high. Then the actual residents will have higher land prices than LL would need it to be. But when land is expensive, the demand will go downwards (there is less land sales with higher prices), and so will go down LL income volume. The less money LL gains, the less it has money to make SL a better world and a better game.

I appreciate all the input and value it, but there are a couple of points i neglected to mention possibly. We have been using the search tool, the same search tool that SL realtors use!

In case no one has noticed, the prices have skyrocketed! As for renting, I have had several friends who rent getting ripped off and paying as much as 11k a WEEK in some cases for the privalege of not being allowed to rename their parcel. I rent two parcels. One landlord is an absolute sweetheart who has given us a great price and reasonable freedom on a very well-kept sim. The other parcel we rent, we made the mistake of not paying attention to the no restrictions clause in the covenant and have been literally walled in and cant set the parcel to home because we cant find the landlord to deed it for us(for a 100L fee of course) . Yes, it is a case of buyer beware, but this all kind of takes the edge of the "game" when you are shelling out money hand over fist for virtual land and virtual space.

Also, in my humble opinion, it makes no difference to LL how much land is being sold unless it is bought from Linden Labs directly. The tier is the same whether you buy a 4096 plot for 70k or 100k. Therefore, this situation is in no way helping LL.

I am not saying stifle all free enterprise just give it a timecap on mainland property which is at a premium. Hell, I'm even waiting to get my 512 which is part of my premium account,and i cant even find that. Finding a 512 plot on mainland under 10k? Where? If it exists, some realtor has snapped it up before you can say BOO. It happened to us.

I don't believe it's a matter only for land barons (i own much land and I sell I should admit).
I have noticed from little experience in here, that the most high prices in land are not set by land barons. They are set by simply owners. Do the test, and try to find the more expensive parcels in each and every category. I believe the majority is not held by land barrons. And that's because, if it's really very expensive , nobody will buy it for sometime. And land barrons, don't want to keep parcels in unrealistic prices just for fun , since there is the tier fee. So, they will try to sell a parcel for a reasonable (to them) price, but just remember that they cannot sell under their buying price (unless they have to go right away from SL). And also they'll try to have a slight margin, which in may cases leads to an increase from 5 to 10 or 20 or 30%, depending on the case, or the difference between the current market price and the buying price

Another thing, is that if a normal price for a piece of land is 10k (everybody can find what is the minimum threshold price for each size of land in mainland throufh the search function), then if someone set up a price for a plot of this size, at 7 or 8k, this is supposed to be a bargain, not only for land barons but for everyone in SL. (I bet quite many people who are not land barons have bought and sold land during their stay in SL. That doesn't make them land barrons). The reason that this specific part going usually to a land barron and not an another resident is simply because land barons , what they do during logged in, is to simply search all the time. I have noticed also that some have friends or employees that when they see a piece of land at a nice price they notify them immediately. So , the thing that most usually land is snapped by land barons and not others, is simply a matter of interest and continously searching, which other residents, don't spend the same ammount of time to do.

Not to support the land barons, but just trying to be realistic. They are not to be blamed for everything .
My pure opinion.

The 30 day clause may have the opposite effect your looking for. Currently a buyer will snap up land add the land tier fees they assume in the purchase and figure a mark up . Then reprice the land and sell.

Personally I would have to , Buy the land, multiply the Land tier by at least 2or3 if Im required to hold it 30 days since that could span multiple billing periods, the figure markup and resell.

That is another factor to inflate costs even further in my book.

Robin Hood Realty buys land in large US$ chunks, adds the land tier cost and resell to ppl just like you who want a home AT COST !, buyers are limited to a MAX of 4096m or 2 purchases in any 90day period in order to keep land barons from doing just what you talk about.

Case in point - 896m2 for 17.9k in refugio.

In case noones pointed your error out yet.

But how many barons now would be willing to put in that kind of time effort and money with a slow turnaround? Playing in a 30 day holding market is much more risky than a no time turnaround.

I won't name names here, frankly because I want to keep this discussion civil, however, there are currently roughly 50 plots for sale by one baron, who I've personally seen snap up first land on trash accounts. There are NOT any land parcels for sale at this time, under roughly 8k that is NOT owned by land barons and before I could even get there, out of search, it's generally bought up by yet another baron for yet another markup, up to the point where the market won't buy the price for too small a turnaround.

I'd been trying to help my brother look for land. I'd done a story on first land when I was looking to buy my own.

I've seen the ridiculous land barons fall all over each other for pricing, then turnaround and buy each other to mark up and up and up, and then watch people who don't know any better pay that sort of price.

I think it would be civil to name such people. I would expect to spell the name of this person since it gives bad reputation and shows bad behavior for all residents. What do you have to afraid of naming? You can't be sued.

As we can see in the last paragraph, you loose actually you level of civilization by calling ridiculous all the land barons. Congrats!

So just name them.

I agree. By the way, I had 100 plots for sale under 18/sqm, most around 16.5-17.5/sqm yesterday. Not every land baron has ridiculous prices. If I manage to get a lot for 15/sqm, I have no problem reselling it at a discount. The problem isn't that some of us land barons have reasonable prices, rather it is that some buyers are lazy and choose not to do the work it entails get a quality lot (constantly checking the search function every couple minutes) for a good price.

I've made a bit of money by buying and reselling plots, so that I now have a plot of 448m plus 2 of 32m. I am now selling these 32m plots at no profit to raise funds to buy some small plots next to my main one. The lesson: people will pay over the odds to buy land to join to their own. I am doing so and I know the game!

It's against forum ToS, but as snooty as you come off, I'm sure you knew that right?

Case and point.

Sorry Reece but you've outed yourself so I'm gonna respond.

16.5 IS ridiculous, especially at this crucial time in SL's shelf life. By the rest of your post, you admittedly care to take advantage of those who don't know any different (and frankly, but the search tools now, a new player is almost clueless on what all this means), but 16 is a ridiculous price. Especially considering that for 3 years before, they rarely went over 8-10 and that was for premium lots. It's only been in the last 2-3 months that pricing is getting into the 15+ range.

I know it's all legal and fair and blah blah... but all land barons are doing is buying from each other til the others have no other resorts but to pay those prices if they choose to own land.

I do partly blame Lindens for having such a useless tool for search when it comes to land, thanks to the new covenant deals out there, and for knowingly allowing land barons to snatch up first land, trade hands several times and not follow up on it.

Let's just make a rule you can't buy land within 30 days creation, and must hold the land for 30 days, or resell it at the price you bought it for, or less!

believe it or not, i didn't. I've been here for nearly 2 motnhs. Was not aware of it. But in case of extreme cases, when someone sees strange behavior, maybe names should be put on public , so other residents could be protected. WIth just accusing a whole category of people, because you can't name 1 or 2 (or more), saws something.
That was my thought
with respect

I would have no problem on that. But I am also ready to bet, that the prices should be higher. Including at the price 2 months tier fee. That's how it would affect prices. Skyrotecking in land prices you have seen as you say through the years, is clearly a matter of supply and demand and of the exposure of SL to many new users. That's my understanding

To put the restriction to resell it at a price lower than they bought it for, should effect SL totally. Many should require also the following. When someone goes to buy a new skin, then we should request that the seller pays the buyer for giving the skin with a loss.

If you can face that, then everybody will accept the rule you propose.

Clearly you know nothing about the basic economics of supply and demand. I joined less than a month ago and within that time over 500,000 new people have joined Second Life. That's a 25% increase in population within less than a month. For simplicity, I'll just consider myself a member for a month. That's 30 days and 500,000 new members. An average of roughly 17,000 new members per day. I remember reading awhile back that roughly 10% of residents are landowners/become landowners. That means 1,700 new landowners each day. A sim can hold at most roughly 130 landowners. LL releases 3-5 new sims a day which makes land for 390-650 landowners -- 650 at best if all bought 512s. Now... Explain to me why prices wouldn't go up when there is such a massive gap between supply and demand?

Having a 30 day no resale clause will only add to this problem. I took 3 years of economics as an undergrad, this knowledge is all too obvious to me, as I'm sure it is to most land barons out there. Unless LL makes some radical changes, expect prices to go higher.

And, as for calling my prices ridiculous, you might as well call every single person in SL's prices ridiculous seeing as nobody is selling anything under 15.5/sqm and those are for mountain ranges with which "you get what you paid for". Bottom line: Maybe new residents will have to start buying 256s instead of 512s. Inflation occurs everywhere, it's not just a problem inherent to Second Life. Houses where I live that were $50,000 15 years ago are now $300,000+. Inflation has always been 3-4% per year, apply the rule of 72 and prices should be roughly $90,000 today, not $300,000. What's the problem there? Are house owners scammers? Are they taking advantage of people like me that work hard but can't afford the $500,000 it costs for a half decent house? No, they realize that there are people willing to pay $500,000 for their half-decent house and decide to hence sell it for that. Keep in mind, this doesn't hurt existing house owners much the same as price increases don't hurt current SL residents much. Why? Well, for example I bought a house for $185,000 5 years ago and it is now worth $275,000, so while all houses are "worth more", guess what? So is mine. The same can be said about SL. I bought my piece of first land for L$5,000 on December 21st. A week later I sold it for L$10,000. Now I can still buy a good 512 for L$10,000, so in the end it hasn't hurt me at all. The only people inflation hurts are new players, renters and those who procrastinate without cease. Everyone else will remain indifferent.