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An interesting bit of hypocrisy

Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
09-01-2005 01:58
MJL watches over the city of Nova Albion.....

Jungle drums say ... all your land are belong to us!
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The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals.

From: Jesse Linden
I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
Alan Kiesler
Retired Resident
Join date: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 354
09-01-2005 02:01
From: Lynn Lippmann
Oh noes! Our first congress or House of Lords has internal conflicts!


:) I'm not particularly surprised about that really, the US Congress was in that state from Day One really. Makes you wonder if Republics are just organized collections of Anarchists.

Kelvin - Agreed. That's why I'm just awaiting to see what will happen next, and not totally stopping my future planning for helping SL.

But I digress, and go back to waiting...
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Timothy S. Kimball (RL) -- aka 'Alan Kiesler'
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No ending is EVER written; Communities will continue on their own.
Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
09-01-2005 02:04
From: Lynn Lippmann
But just in case, could someone translate in a more easier and understandable wording?


Well, presumably, Mr Ennui believes that we, the people, are far from capable of deducing anything resembling fact from the conversation logs, because he intends to divulge the real facts to us at some point in the near future, and should we even try to extrapolate any information from the conversation, we will only end up looking foolish for trying, being that we're just monkeys and far too stupid to understand the lofty goals of this super elite group.

So we should all STFU until he deigns to speak to us.
Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
09-01-2005 02:06
So... we should all stick our heads in the sand, so we can see whats going on?

hehehe
_____________________
The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals.

From: Jesse Linden
I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
Jesrad Seraph
Nonsense
Join date: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,463
09-01-2005 02:13
The only way I can see this affair ending up being fair and just, is if the resulting decisions taken by this group ONLY AFFECT THE GROUP and not other SL residents.
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Either Man can enjoy universal freedom, or Man cannot. If it is possible then everyone can act freely if they don't stop anyone else from doing same. If it is not possible, then conflict will arise anyway so punch those that try to stop you. In conclusion the only strategy that wins in all cases is that of doing what you want against all adversity, as long as you respect that right in others.
Surina Skallagrimson
Queen of Amazon Nations
Join date: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 941
09-01-2005 02:16
From: Enabran Templar
I'm still chuckling about Anshe asking for an NDA on the group's discussions. That tells me just about all I need to know about its objectives, but I still don't see a reason to panic. The Lindens are good people.



Actually, they are talking about the Linden Handbook and refering to parts that Philip may not want everyone else to know...


Prokofy Neva: We're concerned about conduct in world while in uniform and out, not so much mental and dental.
Philip Linden: I think that would be OK, but I will talk with Robin.
Alliez Mysterio: tyvm
Prokofy Neva: Sounds good.
Anshe Chung: We may also be able assign some of us to sign an NDA with you if that would be concern for some parts.
Philip Linden: No,
Philip Linden: I am not a big fan of NDAs.
Philip Linden: I think that things this group may do should be uniformly public.
Philip Linden: Therefore we will look at what is OK for all of SL to read.


Philips response is to place his own NDA on it by saying he'll only publish the parts he feels acceptable to be released to everyone.
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Surina Skallagrimson
Queen of Amazon Nation
Rizal Sports Mentor

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Philip Linden: "we are not in the game business."
Adam Savage: "I reject your reality and substitue my own."
Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
09-01-2005 02:26
In the spirit of justice!
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Pham Neutra
Registered User
Join date: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 478
Formation of "Metaverse Justice Watch" is good for the SL community
09-01-2005 02:27
From: Editorial Hare
I happened upon an unannounced meeting this evening which disturbed me a bit.

This meeting was arranged by a group calling themselves the "Metaverse Justice Watch" or the MJW. They claim to be an open group, but at their organizational meeting they specifically said they wanted to keep certain "types" out of the group. They also wanted to request the Lindens remove all "press" from this meeting. Though the voice vote on removing the press appeared to pass they ended up not actually asking the Lindens.

I find the parallels with another FICtional group to be enlightening. I have highlighted a few interesting bits from the meeting log, particularity Robin's comment about residents in good standing, which you will notice directly effects certain officers in this group.

Like some other residents I don't see the hypocrisy with this groups efforts. The dialog that they initiated is an important one. And the Lindens rather explicitely stated that this dialog will be an open one involving all residents.

Yes, some of the statements could be seen as questionable or elitist. But only from a very biased viewpoint. Nowhere in the notecard published here (i dont have the original) or in the transcript its is said that "we" (current members or those attending) are "better" than other residents. What is said is, that some residents have a greater stake in SL, that changes to SL have a much larger effect on their lives (first and second) than it's maybe the case with another resident who is coming inworld as a kind of "tourist".

And thats a simple truth!

A truth like "I have more money on the bank than you". I - as the "you" - may not like this truth much. But this does not make the one telling it a hypocrite ;)

Wanting to keep "The Press" out of the first meeting of such a group is nothing unusual, not in SL and surely not in RL. Its not easy in the first days of an organisation to get anything done if every move is watched by mistrusting eyes. And if you look at the founding members I am sure that they will be met with much mistrust /this discussion shows). On the other hand these founding members are so diverse and have been known to have such widely differing views that is hard to see a kind cabala forming here.



btw: Yes, I am am member of this group. So you might see me as biased. I did not find the time to attend their meetings until now. So what I know about the dealings is not more than what can be seen here.
Cid Jacobs
Theoretical Meteorologist
Join date: 18 Jul 2004
Posts: 4,304
09-01-2005 02:29
From: Pham Neutra

A truth like "I have more money on the bank than you". I - as the "you" - may not like this truth much. But this does not make the one telling it a hypocrite ;)


That doesn't mean I get to control interest rates :p .
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Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
09-01-2005 02:35
Pham, if we'd wanted a group to speak for us, we'd have elected one of our own choosing, wouldnt we? As Philip very much knows, the majority are against any kind of 'government' outside of his own 'dictatorship'.

Like I said, looking at the attendees, most of them I wouldnt trust to convey the lunch menu accurately to me without some kind of personal agenda, let alone entrust them to help shape SL for the "benefit of all of us".

I dont care if its public or not. They are NOT acting in our interests and they ARE elitist. Those people do not represent us. That's why there is a mistrust - because they are EXACTLY the people you DON'T want representing us.
Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
09-01-2005 02:39
From: Pham Neutra
Like some other residents I don't see the hypocrisy with this groups efforts.
The hypocrisy lies in the fact that the two SLers giving the most input in this exclusive meeting are both subscribers to the belief in a "FIC" group, which supposedly has just these sorts of exchanges with LL.

From: Pham Neutra
Yes, some of the statements could be seen as questionable or elitist. But only from a very biased viewpoint
Only from a very biased viewpoint? The following statement requires no bias to detect where it is going:

Anshe Chung: "This is what we feel makes us stakeholders. More like you [Lindens] and in contrast to e.g. merely tourists, users, consumers, players etc"


From: Pham Neutra
Wanting to keep "The Press" out of the first meeting of such a group is nothing unusual, not in SL and surely not in RL.
Not unusual if you are trying to hide something. In lieu of Anshe's statement above, I think we can see what she wants hidden. A desire for special status. I am quite sure the NDA stuff was wanted because she knew that people would have a fit if this got out. And rightly so. Apparently, Philip sees the danger in this, and thank the stars for that!

And yes, your membership status does color your comments a bit in my mind. nothing personal, just what I feel is logical caution.
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
09-01-2005 02:45
From: Pham Neutra
Like some other residents I don't see the hypocrisy with this groups efforts. The dialog that they initiated is an important one. And the Lindens rather explicitely stated that this dialog will be an open one involving all residents.
.


I don't mind folks forming the group, hell form away! its your right.
I don't care what you talk about - talk away! it's your right!..


That being said...

.. Tell me what to do or make decisions for me, and I'll snap my foot off in your arse.

Siggy.
_____________________
The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals.

From: Jesse Linden
I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
Surina Skallagrimson
Queen of Amazon Nations
Join date: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 941
09-01-2005 02:47
From: Nolan Nash
I am quite sure the NDA stuff was wanted because she knew that people would have a fit if this got out. And rightly so. Apparently, Philip sees the danger in this, and thank the stars for that!


See my post above.... (the one just befor your comic picture)
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Surina Skallagrimson
Queen of Amazon Nation
Rizal Sports Mentor

--------------------------------------------------------
Philip Linden: "we are not in the game business."
Adam Savage: "I reject your reality and substitue my own."
Pham Neutra
Registered User
Join date: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 478
09-01-2005 02:48
From: Kris Ritter
Pham, if we'd wanted a group to speak for us, we'd have elected one of our own choosing, wouldnt we? As Philip very much knows, the majority are against any kind of 'government' outside of his own 'dictatorship'.

Like I said, looking at the attendees, most of them I wouldnt trust to convey the lunch menu accurately to me without some kind of personal agenda, let alone entrust them to help shape SL for the "benefit of all of us".

I dont care if its public or not. They are NOT acting in our interests and they ARE elitist. Those people do not represent us. That's why there is a mistrust - because they are EXACTLY the people you DON'T want representing us.
Kris, I am not sure what the intentions of the group were. That transcript is very confusing at times. But if you look at how the Lindens took it and what were there suggestions how to proceed, you see that this is planned as a rather open process.

I think it is sure, that this group is not meant as "representatives" of all residents. On the other hand it is simply not possible to have such discussions with ALL residents in parallel. But as the proceeds will be made public (at least I read it that way) I fail to see the caballa some are assuming. And - as membership in this group is open - chances for secrecy are small.

The team of people forming the group could be seen not as respresentatives but as a lobbying group. At least some of them have a HUGE interest (stake) in SL. So its perfectly understandable that they want to voice their interests.

This is not a representative assembly. Otherwise they would have to elected. Its more like the guilds forming in late medieval Europe who began to voice the interests of merchants against nobility. SL history repeating the RL one maybe ;)

From: Kris Ritter
As Philip very much knows, the majority are against any kind of 'government' outside of his own 'dictatorship'.
I am not sure of that. How do you measure the "majority"?
Lynn Lippmann
Toe Jammer
Join date: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 793
09-01-2005 02:49
This sounds to me as if this group is saying... "Not only do I invest my RL time, energy and effort into SL, I also pay up the wazoo in LL fees in order for user-created content to be enjoyed by one and all."

They are asking the age-old question that we've spoken about on the forums for a long, long time.

The fact that LL need to recognize it's contributers to this "society" whether in the form of entertainment, creation, land-owning, scripting, etc. as part of the LL team.

They are asking for a partnership to somehow secure all their sweat and monetary equity they've put into SL. They are asking for assurances.

Sad that each of them has done all of this work without a partnership agreement, not unlike GOM. They did it on either a) the belief in this metauniverse project and the Linden's doing the right thing; or b) they did it to make a few dollars, whether it be a monthly income and/or a hobbiest's "extra cash on the side."

Daddy Linden just gave one company a royal spanking. Tony said it correctly that anyone coming into SL should realize that the Microsoft of virtual worlds (at this moment) could squash any user's efforts in one single stroke, without thinking or blinking an eye. After all, the excuse of "for a better SL" can always be used, who gives a rats ass who created it, nurtured it and made it successful.

They are asking for assurances. I can't wait to see the response.

Until then, let's take their official advice listed in the previous forum post by one of the founding members and just... "Shut your mouth..." like the good kiddies that you all are or your privilege of playing in the sandbox shall be denied.
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
09-01-2005 02:53
And so it's not representatives... and it's open to all...

From: Nolan Nash
So a friend of mine asks for the name of the group, and then joins.

Then he asks when the next meeting is.

He is informed that the next meeting is only open to "representatives".

It's 14-0 and it's not even halftime yet!

GO METAVERSE JUSTICE WATCH TEAM!



And in a related story... all animals are created equal, just that some are more equal than others :)

And who is representing me? God help me if it's An$he or Proctology....
_____________________
The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals.

From: Jesse Linden
I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
09-01-2005 02:55
From: Surina Skallagrimson
See my post above.... (the one just befor your comic picture)

I see what you're saying, but I suppose it comes down to interpretation.

Did he mean that this special group would be able to see all of it and the rest of us just what was "fit" for our eyes?

Or did he mean that they would decide what everyone, including both the MJV group and the rest of SL is "fit" to see?

I am not sure. I wish I was.

Thanks for the headache Surina! :p
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blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
09-01-2005 02:56
Yes, folks, the moon is very much a harsh mistress.

I say the person that gets into power is the one with the least votes!
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Jesrad Seraph
Nonsense
Join date: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,463
09-01-2005 02:57
From: Lynn Lippmann
This sounds to me as if this group is saying... "Not only do I invest my RL time, energy and effort into SL, I also pay up the wazoo in LL fees in order for user-created content to be enjoyed by one and all."

They are asking the age-old question that we've spoken about on the forums for a long, long time.

The fact that LL need to recognize it's contributers to this "society" whether in the form of entertainment, creation, land-owning, scripting, etc. as part of the LL team.

And that's where their logic fails, as well as yours, I'm afraid. It's not up to LL to provide the feedback to contributers in SL, it's the sole responsibility of its residents.
_____________________
Either Man can enjoy universal freedom, or Man cannot. If it is possible then everyone can act freely if they don't stop anyone else from doing same. If it is not possible, then conflict will arise anyway so punch those that try to stop you. In conclusion the only strategy that wins in all cases is that of doing what you want against all adversity, as long as you respect that right in others.
Jonquille Noir
Lemon Fresh
Join date: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,025
09-01-2005 02:57
From: Nolan Nash
I see what you're saying, but I suppose it comes down to interpretation.

Did he mean that this special group would be able to see all of it and the rest of us just what was "fit" for our eyes?

Or did he mean that they would decide what everyone, including both the MJV group and the rest of SL is "fit" to see?

I am not sure. I wish I was.

Thanks for the headache Surina! :p


I took it to mean that Anshe wanted to see all of it and would sign an NDA, and Philip said no, they would only see what everyone was allowed to see.

Denied.
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Gallinas
Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
09-01-2005 02:57
From: blaze Spinnaker
Yes, folks, the moon is very much a harsh mistress.

I say the person that gets into power is the one with the least votes!



That would be me...

God have mercy on your souls!
_____________________
The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals.

From: Jesse Linden
I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
Pham Neutra
Registered User
Join date: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 478
09-01-2005 02:59
From: Nolan Nash
The hypocrisy lies in the fact that the two SLers giving the most input in this exclusive meeting are both subscribers to the belief in a "FIC" group, which supposedly has just these sorts of exchanges with LL.
Maybe it just shows that both assumptions (that of the existence of a true FIC and that of a new FIC forming) here are unfounded :)

From: Nolan Nash
Anshe Chung: "This is what we feel makes us stakeholders. More like you [Lindens] and in contrast to e.g. merely tourists, users, consumers, players etc"
I still fail to see it, sorry. If we assume that Anshe makes the sums, that are published by the Lindens. If we further assume that she works hard and long times for that and there may come a time where her families income depends on SL. I don't know if thats the case. But just assuming. Isn't her interest in SL a huge one? PR-wise the use of the word "merely" might be seen as not so clever. But if my families income would depend on my work in SL, yes I might do some lobbying for an environment where my business will prosper. ;)

From: Nolan Nash
And yes, your membership status does color your comments a bit in my mind. nothing personal, just what I feel is logical caution.
You are very welcome:) Thats why I clearly posted it.
Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
09-01-2005 02:59
From: Jonquille Noir
I took it to mean that Anshe wanted to see all of it and would sign an NDA, and Philip said no, they would only see what everyone was allowed to see.

Denied.


I read it as they would sign an NDA, read it all, then tell us what they felt we should know..

but more or less along the same lines.



Siggy.
_____________________
The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals.

From: Jesse Linden
I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
Snowcrash Hoffman
Digital mind virus
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 282
09-01-2005 03:00
From: AnneDroid Lily
The group is easy to Find.
1) Metaverse Justice Watch
2) Anshe Chung
Cocoanut Koala
Juani Wu
Prokofy Neva
Shaun Altman
Zeppi Schlegel (didn't he quit?)
3) Anshe Chung
4) there are more than 48 members, i won't bother to list them.



Who are these people? Who elected them to represent 40,000 SL residents? Why did Philip met with them? What does it mean they are stakeholders and rest of us are not? Where did they come up with their 5 point plan for SL? Whose opinion did they ask?

I don't care about the content of the meeting and foolish statements from Anshe, but I am highly disappointed that such an meeting took place without a public announcement. So much for open society in SL!
Surina Skallagrimson
Queen of Amazon Nations
Join date: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 941
09-01-2005 03:01
From: Jonquille Noir
I took it to mean that Anshe wanted to see all of it and would sign an NDA, and Philip said no, they would only see what everyone was allowed to see.

Denied.


I agree.
_____________________
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Surina Skallagrimson
Queen of Amazon Nation
Rizal Sports Mentor

--------------------------------------------------------
Philip Linden: "we are not in the game business."
Adam Savage: "I reject your reality and substitue my own."
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