Why should I care about Havoc 2?

Ok, I have been hearing for ages how everyone is so upset that we dont have, or aren't going to get soon enough...

Havoc 2.

soooo....

If I don't shoot guns,
If I don't salivate at the thought of chasing and killing someone,
If I dont enjoy driving vehicles or flying airplanes,
If I dont like crashing the ariplanes or cars into other buildings/objects/people
If I dont like lobbing bombs onto unsuspecting sims...

is there a reason why I should care about Havoc 2?

I am sure there are lots of otherwise intelligent folks out there like me who dont play computer games and therefore have no clue what this stuff is all about. How about an explanation of why we should have it?

Let's hear some good non violent, non gamer reasons why we should care about Havoc 2, so the rest of the community could also support it. I am sure there are some, I just have never heard them and I think it would help other folks like myself to know what they are.

I don't think anyone can answer that question except for Andrew and whoever.

Basically, FPS (frames per second) and Physics lag are things that need to be fixed as they impact your experience as you move about and turn with the camera.

Whether or not Havoc 2 can address this is another question.

Also, games like bowling and pool need a better physics engine.

To quote Lordfly Digeridoo from this thread: /120/ae/28838/1.html

These all sound like excellent reasons.

I was looking for more specific examples though if anyone has them. I find that a great part of peoples enthusiasm for such things usually revolves around visualisations of what it can "do for them."

How will Havoc 2 affect more important things like dancing, clothes or sex for example?

LF's example of the cables is interesting, but as we dont really have cables in SL, I am not sure if that applies really. What I am looking for is things that don't require "some other change" like new prims or a new avatar for them to work.

Prehensile primises!

Wuh?
you mean wiggly prims used for tail in two senses?

Dianne, all jokes aside, Havok2 will allow much better-looking avatars, with its support for ragdolls, and possibly even allow us to make NPCs through a better joint system.
Of course, at first, the only improvements will be performance and stability. Long term, LL may add support for a heap of stuff and extend existing limits a bit.

One word:

JIGGLE

Another word:

JELLY (but I don't think you're ready for that jelly).

Roller skates, skateboards, bumper boats,...

That's about what I thought too. I just thought it would be nice if folks could visualise all the great things that Havoc 2 might bring, without resorting to "your gun will work better."

Well, the reason we don't have a reliable physics engine is partly the reason that most of the 'less important' activities never - are - less important. One of the reasons dancing, clothes and sex are popular is because they don't rely on physics.
It's still amazing how many people enjoy driving, yachting, flying etc. even with the simple, buggy and slow systems we have today. Imagine how 'important' these activities would be when they are smooth and bug free.

Havok2 is not so much a goal, as a next step in the evolution to turn SL into a more flexible environment. Although a direct implementation will not immediately change anything radical, you can expect a good reliable physics engine to allow, for instance, the following over time:

1. Severely reduce sim lag. Making it possible to have bigger events with more people.
2. Complex physical objects, like realistic looking animals, monsters, pets, rideable creatures, autonomous robots. But ofcourse also, big party ships in the seas, skies filled with big flying zeppelins...
3. 'Ragdoll' systems will allow avatars to fall/drop/fling naturally. This would mean automatic seating/lying in hundreds of positions without needing to be scripted first, based on the 'shape' they drop on. In later stages, combining this with kinetics and inverse kinetics will allow for more complete natural motions, influenced by position and other avatars. (This could mean, actual avatar interactivity) Imagine how this would influence 'sex' in SL
4. Physics can allow for 'physical attachment' (althougth this will prob. be a 'client side' solution). This natural moving hair, dresses blowing in the wind, pendants, bracelets etc that hang correctly.
5. All the things mentioned earlier...

etc. etc.

Again, this won't be there when Havok2 is implemented, but good physics is a necessary step to eventually have all those things.

All in all it's basically impossible to predict what we will end up in the long run. But havok2, or better physics, is one of the (many) necessary tools to build a world with better experiences and a lot more diversity.

Well, your rack will work better is an amusing variation

Off the top of my head:

1) Dancing -- better physics handling means more complicated collision boxes for avatars -- meaning more intimate dancing is now possible without your arm sticking through your lover's chest.

2) clothes -- imagine dynamically flowing cloth on skirts, kilts, hair, and shirts. By dynamic, I mean... blowing in the wind. Havok2 can do that on small scales, small enough for avatars.

Capes, anyone?

3) Sex -- well, the aforementioned cables will make the BDSM folks giddy with joy, I'm sure... ragdoll physics will make all those goofy sex toys seem more "real"... sexier clothes (dynamic skirts and such) will make sex that much more... sexy, or whatever. I dunno, I'm really out of my element on that one. But those are all possible.

Wheel of pain, turn turn turn, tell us the lesson that we should learn...


BUT, one caveat here.

When I wrote that, I was still highly optimistic about Havok2, still starry-eyed, and the newbie finish hadn't worn off the idea.

2 years after I first heard it promised, I'll just be surprised if they manage to add the number "2" after Havok, much less any features.

Initially, Havok2 will be all under-the-hood changes; meaning, everything you've collected will be broken.

After 2 or 3 point releases they'll finally fix all of the bugs and introduce something inconsequential, like... wind dynamics.

3-4 years later we'll get Havok2 in it's full glory. Then we'll ask for the then-current version, havok 7.6....

Dear LLab: Give Andrew some help, please. He can't be the only genius over there. Philip has a bachelor's in physics, for god's sake, have HIM help! :/

LF

I fail to see how guns, cars planes and games are less important than sex, clothes and dancing.

but havok 2 will make everything a bit more natural. It will open possibilites for a wider range of activity, and make my gun better.

One of the best reasons of improved physics, for me, would have to be smoother walking over hills to appreciate the next sunrise that comes along.

You so Funny!

I'll be able to build trees that actuallysway gently in the breeze without lagging the sim to death and sticking their branches through the nearest wall. Right now my windy trees have to rotate textures from the middle which means they barely move lest they rock their trunks up out of the ground.

Say...why can't we rotate textures from an offset? Why do textures have to rotate only around the middle? Say!

For this, you'll also want SpeedTree, another promised feature.
http://www.speedtree.com/
http://www.speedtree.com/press/PR_Second_Life_Chooses_SpeedTree_March_22_05.pdf

Hooray for boobies!

It seems grammatically that if SL is already based on havok 1 that the best place to upgrade to it would be havok 2 (or 3 which is out).

However is this so?

There are other physics engines out there. Could any of them be used without breaking current vehicles and gadgets? (not that they work that great now)

A few linksnote some cheesier than others)

http://ageia.com/

http://www.ageia.com/press/press4.html

http://www.havok.com/

http://www.tokamakphysics.com/intro.htm

http://www.cm-labs.com/products/demos/

http://www.oxforddynamics.co.uk/

because currently the guy driving that tank behind you, the one chasing the guy that tried shooting him to death from his plane before crashing into the building he lobbing bombs at... that guy... is the reason your clothes fell off during the post-sex dance you are attempting in the dragged-down-to-its-knees sim. Hopefully Havoc 2 will sort that out.

Errrrrm, more bump, less grind?

Well, to sort of echo Lordfly: at this point, I think you should care about Havoc 2 if and only if you regularly worry about Harpies, Medusae, Orcs, Ravenous Bugblatter Beasts from Traal, or Rodents Of Unusual Size.

The answer to everything in Second Life, including the problem of Havoc 2, is this:


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wis

When will Havoc 2 be rolled out?

July 2012.

LF

I really shouldn't talk out of my ass like this, because I have like zero experience with physics engines, but I believe you've touched on the Big Issue with why Havok 2 is slow to appear. That being that there are so many many MANY things in SL that are based on the current physics that you don't want to break in upgrading. My God, I've seen the way people bitched when teleportation was broken. Can you imagine the uproar if you broke (say) bling? The horror!

I'm reasonably sure that H2 is not like some new, improved subroutine for calculating square roots, where you can substitute a function call and the new stuff just plugs seamlessly into place. And it impresses me that what LL is attempting to do with H2 -- *upgrading* physics engines -- is something of a New Thing. Consider that yer writing a new killer game, CouponQuest, you'll probably use Havok 2 from the ground up. And if your game sells well, next year you'll develop CouponQuest II and maybe Havok 3 will be out, and you'll use *that*. But in effect you're starting from the ground up, which is way different, and 'safer', than changing the world physics of 40K? people in on ongoing game.

To be sure, I'm looking forward to it. But I'm an extremely patient person.

Jess