Second Life Forums Archive - Why should I care about Havoc 2?

FlipperPA Peregrine

Magically Delicious!

Join date: 14 Nov 2003

Posts: 3,703

09-13-2005 07:03

I have the feeling that Havok 2 is going to be as big of a letdown to SL as The Phantom Menace was to Star Wars fan boys everywhere.

-Flip

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Salazar Jack

Nova Albion native

Join date: 12 Feb 2004

Posts: 1,105

09-13-2005 07:35

From: FlipperPA Peregrine

I have the feeling that Havok 2 is going to be as big of a letdown to SL as The Phantom Menace was to Star Wars fan boys everywhere.

-Flip

But maybe not as bad as Ewoks?

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Dianne Mechanique

Back from the Dead

Join date: 28 Mar 2005

Posts: 2,648

09-13-2005 09:31

From: Salazar Jack

But maybe not as bad as Ewoks?

*nothing* is as bad as the Ewoks

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Dianne Mechanique

Back from the Dead

Join date: 28 Mar 2005

Posts: 2,648

09-13-2005 10:02

Very nice. Informative post, but just to nit-pick...

Totally disagree with this assumption.

From: Damanios Thetan

... One of the reasons dancing, clothes and sex are popular is because they don't rely on physics....

Dancing relies on physics (in that it sucks because physics wont let you dance properly), yet it is wildly popular. Clothes are possibly the most popular item for sale period, and sex one of the most popular activities, yet both "fail" to work well mostly because of physics problems.

Dancing, clothes and sex are popular (IMO), because they are central aspects of an essentially social game, which is funny to me because Linden Labs always seems to spend all its developement efforts on making guns work better, when most avatars would probably prefer better clothes and more natural dancing/sex or other social interactions if you asked them.

_____________________

.
black
art furniture & classic clothing
===================
Black in Neufreistadt
Black @ ONE
Black @ www.SLBoutique.com

.

Christopher Omega

Oxymoron

Join date: 28 Mar 2003

Posts: 1,828

09-13-2005 10:36

From: Jessica Qin

I really shouldn't talk out of my ass like this, because I have like zero experience with physics engines, but I believe you've touched on the Big Issue with why Havok 2 is slow to appear. That being that there are so many many MANY things in SL that are based on the current physics that you don't want to break in upgrading. My God, I've seen the way people bitched when teleportation was broken. Can you imagine the uproar if you broke (say) bling? The horror!

I'm reasonably sure that H2 is not like some new, improved subroutine for calculating square roots, where you can substitute a function call and the new stuff just plugs seamlessly into place. And it impresses me that what LL is attempting to do with H2 -- *upgrading* physics engines -- is something of a New Thing. Consider that yer writing a new killer game, CouponQuest, you'll probably use Havok 2 from the ground up. And if your game sells well, next year you'll develop CouponQuest II and maybe Havok 3 will be out, and you'll use *that*. But in effect you're starting from the ground up, which is way different, and 'safer', than changing the world physics of 40K? people in on ongoing game.

To be sure, I'm looking forward to it. But I'm an extremely patient person.

Jess

Actually, much of your statement depends upon how the game was designed. If the Lindens figured they may be switching physics engines when they first wrote SL, they would have abstracted away the physics engine entirely, by using an interface to communicate with Havok's facilities. OSMP (Open Source Metaverse Project) does something like this - to switch physics engines (in theory) all they have to do is write a new implementation of the interface that talks to the physics engine (which is usually very simple to do). Then again, if SL wasn't designed with that in mind, it might (and probably is, given how much time Andrew has been spending on it, going to) take an astounding amount of time to decouple the rest of the game from Havok 1's proprietary interface. Hopefully they dont make the same mistake twice. By decoupling everything now to get Havok 2 running, it should be significantly easier to switch to Havok 3 or another physics engine.

==Chris

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a lost user

Join date: ?

Posts: ?

09-13-2005 10:44

From: Dianne Mechanique

Very nice. Informative post, but just to nit-pick...

Totally disagree with this assumption.

From: Damanios Thetan

... One of the reasons dancing, clothes and sex are popular is because they don't rely on physics...

LOL i tend to disagree, too. Because - when I look at RL - dancing and sex seem rather popular, even though the best physics engine of the universe is making shoot-them-ups and car races, or sailboats terribly realistic.

People seem to have funny preferences

Cristiano Midnight

Evil Snapshot Baron

Join date: 17 May 2003

Posts: 8,616

09-13-2005 11:28

From: Maeve Morgan

Hooray for boobies!

Yay I love when someone gets my sense of humor

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Cristiano

ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less.

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Maeve Morgan

ZOMG Resmod!

Join date: 2 Apr 2004

Posts: 1,512

09-13-2005 11:36

From: Cristiano Midnight

Yay I love when someone gets my sense of humor

lol I actually asked about jiggle at a town meeting one time, so I'm excited at the prospect.

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Musicteacher Rampal

Registered User

Join date: 20 Feb 2004

Posts: 824

09-13-2005 11:50

From: someone

2) Allowing for more prims per server,

So will we get more prims for our land???

Cristiano Midnight

Evil Snapshot Baron

Join date: 17 May 2003

Posts: 8,616

09-13-2005 12:22

From: musicteacher Rampal

So will we get more prims for our land???

Yes, prim limits will ultimately be increased because improvements to the physics and rendering engines.

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Cristiano

ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less.

~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.

Ingrid Ingersoll

Archived

Join date: 10 Aug 2004

Posts: 4,601

09-13-2005 12:28

From: Maeve Morgan

lol I actually asked about jiggle at a town meeting one time, so I'm excited at the prospect.

PREDICTION: jiggle will replace bling when Havoc 2 happens. Or wait! maybe jiggle-bling! I SAID IT FIRST AND I'M PATENTING IT AS I TYPE THIS!

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http://www.ingrid.0catch.com/1.html

Maeve Morgan

ZOMG Resmod!

Join date: 2 Apr 2004

Posts: 1,512

09-13-2005 12:29

From: Ingrid Ingersoll

PREDICTION: jiggle will replace bling when Havoc 2 happens. Or wait! maybe jiggle-bling! I SAID IT FIRST AND I'M PATENTING IT AS I TYPE THIS!

Bouncy Nipplerings?

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April Chung

Isle of Bliss Owner

Join date: 7 Jun 2004

Posts: 478

09-13-2005 12:30

From: Lordfly Digeridoo

July 2012.

LF

Do you think we can make it to July 2012?

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Rei Kuhr

Ground Repellant

Join date: 18 May 2005

Posts: 54

09-13-2005 12:33

Honestly I'm expecting Cold Fusion before Havok 2 in SL :|

For those of us in the aviation community, having upgraded physics would be a great boon. One of the biggest hassles is planes getting knocked around by sim borders, or coming to a complete stop because of an infinitessimal prim sticking out a millimeter from the ground, or planes just not wanting to behave because the physics engine going "Huh?". It has more to do with the joy of being able to interact with the world in a more realistic way than finding an easy method to go from point A to point B.

And I'm sure everybody here is just about tired of seeing prims knock into each other and bring the sim to it's proverbial knees.

Khamon Fate

fategardens.net

Join date: 21 Nov 2003

Posts: 4,177

09-13-2005 12:38

From: Ingrid Ingersoll

PREDICTION: jiggle will replace bling when Havoc 2 happens. Or wait! maybe jiggle-bling! I SAID IT FIRST AND I'M PATENTING IT AS I TYPE THIS!

The official term shall be Jiblingle and all credit for it's coinage shall be devoted to Our Beloved Ingrid. So says The Khamon.

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Les White

sombish

Join date: 7 Oct 2004

Posts: 163

09-13-2005 14:23

Almost everything i make uses physics. Motorbikes, pool table, indoor soccer game, guns (yeah guns), even flopping fish for my fishing rod.

With a physics engine that didn't suck ass we could even have events beyond the static text based ones we have now. I remember joining this game a year ago. It said something on the SL home page about how you can go racing. meh.

I have 100 projects on hold waiting for Havok2. I'm no longer holding my breath on H2. Took LL a year to make logging in possible. I figure it will take another year or two to make a chat server that works.

This game develops way too slow. Someone is bound to release a product that will eclipse this.

/ends his touchy rant on SL physics and dev time.

Why should I care about Havoc 2?
FlipperPA Peregrine Magically Delicious! Join date: 14 Nov 2003 Posts: 3,703	09-13-2005 07:03 I have the feeling that Havok 2 is going to be as big of a letdown to SL as The Phantom Menace was to Star Wars fan boys everywhere. -Flip _____________________ Peregrine Salon: www.PeregrineSalon.com - my consulting company Second Blogger: www.SecondBlogger.com - free, fully integrated Second Life blogging for all avatars!
Salazar Jack Nova Albion native Join date: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 1,105	09-13-2005 07:35 From: FlipperPA Peregrine I have the feeling that Havok 2 is going to be as big of a letdown to SL as The Phantom Menace was to Star Wars fan boys everywhere. -Flip But maybe not as bad as Ewoks? _____________________ kahruvel.com - Onward & Upward!
Dianne Mechanique Back from the Dead Join date: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 2,648	09-13-2005 09:31 From: Salazar Jack But maybe not as bad as Ewoks? nothing is as bad as the Ewoks _____________________ . black art furniture & classic clothing =================== Black in Neufreistadt Black @ ONE Black @ www.SLBoutique.com .
Dianne Mechanique Back from the Dead Join date: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 2,648	09-13-2005 10:02 Very nice. Informative post, but just to nit-pick... Totally disagree with this assumption. From: Damanios Thetan ... One of the reasons dancing, clothes and sex are popular is because they don't rely on physics.... Dancing relies on physics (in that it sucks because physics wont let you dance properly), yet it is wildly popular. Clothes are possibly the most popular item for sale period, and sex one of the most popular activities, yet both "fail" to work well mostly because of physics problems. Dancing, clothes and sex are popular (IMO), because they are central aspects of an essentially social game, which is funny to me because Linden Labs always seems to spend all its developement efforts on making guns work better, when most avatars would probably prefer better clothes and more natural dancing/sex or other social interactions if you asked them. _____________________ . black art furniture & classic clothing =================== Black in Neufreistadt Black @ ONE Black @ www.SLBoutique.com .
Christopher Omega Oxymoron Join date: 28 Mar 2003 Posts: 1,828	09-13-2005 10:36 From: Jessica Qin I really shouldn't talk out of my ass like this, because I have like zero experience with physics engines, but I believe you've touched on the Big Issue with why Havok 2 is slow to appear. That being that there are so many many MANY things in SL that are based on the current physics that you don't want to break in upgrading. My God, I've seen the way people bitched when teleportation was broken. Can you imagine the uproar if you broke (say) bling? The horror! I'm reasonably sure that H2 is not like some new, improved subroutine for calculating square roots, where you can substitute a function call and the new stuff just plugs seamlessly into place. And it impresses me that what LL is attempting to do with H2 -- upgrading physics engines -- is something of a New Thing. Consider that yer writing a new killer game, CouponQuest, you'll probably use Havok 2 from the ground up. And if your game sells well, next year you'll develop CouponQuest II and maybe Havok 3 will be out, and you'll use that. But in effect you're starting from the ground up, which is way different, and 'safer', than changing the world physics of 40K? people in on ongoing game. To be sure, I'm looking forward to it. But I'm an extremely patient person. Jess Actually, much of your statement depends upon how the game was designed. If the Lindens figured they may be switching physics engines when they first wrote SL, they would have abstracted away the physics engine entirely, by using an interface to communicate with Havok's facilities. OSMP (Open Source Metaverse Project) does something like this - to switch physics engines (in theory) all they have to do is write a new implementation of the interface that talks to the physics engine (which is usually very simple to do). Then again, if SL wasn't designed with that in mind, it might (and probably is, given how much time Andrew has been spending on it, going to) take an astounding amount of time to decouple the rest of the game from Havok 1's proprietary interface. Hopefully they dont make the same mistake twice. By decoupling everything now to get Havok 2 running, it should be significantly easier to switch to Havok 3 or another physics engine. ==Chris _____________________ October 3rd is the Day Against DRM (Digital Restrictions Management), learn more at http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm
a lost user Join date: ? Posts: ?	09-13-2005 10:44 From: Dianne Mechanique Very nice. Informative post, but just to nit-pick... Totally disagree with this assumption. From: Damanios Thetan ... One of the reasons dancing, clothes and sex are popular is because they don't rely on physics... LOL i tend to disagree, too. Because - when I look at RL - dancing and sex seem rather popular, even though the best physics engine of the universe is making shoot-them-ups and car races, or sailboats terribly realistic. People seem to have funny preferences
Cristiano Midnight Evil Snapshot Baron Join date: 17 May 2003 Posts: 8,616	09-13-2005 11:28 From: Maeve Morgan Hooray for boobies! Yay I love when someone gets my sense of humor _____________________ Cristiano ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.
Maeve Morgan ZOMG Resmod! Join date: 2 Apr 2004 Posts: 1,512	09-13-2005 11:36 From: Cristiano Midnight Yay I love when someone gets my sense of humor lol I actually asked about jiggle at a town meeting one time, so I'm excited at the prospect. _____________________ Located in Shark Everything under $100L
Musicteacher Rampal Registered User Join date: 20 Feb 2004 Posts: 824	09-13-2005 11:50 From: someone 2) Allowing for more prims per server, So will we get more prims for our land???
Cristiano Midnight Evil Snapshot Baron Join date: 17 May 2003 Posts: 8,616	09-13-2005 12:22 From: musicteacher Rampal So will we get more prims for our land??? Yes, prim limits will ultimately be increased because improvements to the physics and rendering engines. _____________________ Cristiano ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.
Ingrid Ingersoll Archived Join date: 10 Aug 2004 Posts: 4,601	09-13-2005 12:28 From: Maeve Morgan lol I actually asked about jiggle at a town meeting one time, so I'm excited at the prospect. PREDICTION: jiggle will replace bling when Havoc 2 happens. Or wait! maybe jiggle-bling! I SAID IT FIRST AND I'M PATENTING IT AS I TYPE THIS! _____________________ http://www.ingrid.0catch.com/1.html
Maeve Morgan ZOMG Resmod! Join date: 2 Apr 2004 Posts: 1,512	09-13-2005 12:29 From: Ingrid Ingersoll PREDICTION: jiggle will replace bling when Havoc 2 happens. Or wait! maybe jiggle-bling! I SAID IT FIRST AND I'M PATENTING IT AS I TYPE THIS! Bouncy Nipplerings? _____________________ Located in Shark Everything under $100L
April Chung Isle of Bliss Owner Join date: 7 Jun 2004 Posts: 478	09-13-2005 12:30 From: Lordfly Digeridoo July 2012. LF Do you think we can make it to July 2012? _____________________ Like a moth to a flame burned by the fire. My love is blind. Can't you see my desire?
Rei Kuhr Ground Repellant Join date: 18 May 2005 Posts: 54	09-13-2005 12:33 Honestly I'm expecting Cold Fusion before Havok 2 in SL :\| For those of us in the aviation community, having upgraded physics would be a great boon. One of the biggest hassles is planes getting knocked around by sim borders, or coming to a complete stop because of an infinitessimal prim sticking out a millimeter from the ground, or planes just not wanting to behave because the physics engine going "Huh?". It has more to do with the joy of being able to interact with the world in a more realistic way than finding an easy method to go from point A to point B. And I'm sure everybody here is just about tired of seeing prims knock into each other and bring the sim to it's proverbial knees.
Khamon Fate fategardens.net Join date: 21 Nov 2003 Posts: 4,177	09-13-2005 12:38 From: Ingrid Ingersoll PREDICTION: jiggle will replace bling when Havoc 2 happens. Or wait! maybe jiggle-bling! I SAID IT FIRST AND I'M PATENTING IT AS I TYPE THIS! The official term shall be Jiblingle and all credit for it's coinage shall be devoted to Our Beloved Ingrid. So says The Khamon. _____________________ Visit the Fate Gardens Website @ fategardens.net
Les White sombish Join date: 7 Oct 2004 Posts: 163	09-13-2005 14:23 Almost everything i make uses physics. Motorbikes, pool table, indoor soccer game, guns (yeah guns), even flopping fish for my fishing rod. With a physics engine that didn't suck ass we could even have events beyond the static text based ones we have now. I remember joining this game a year ago. It said something on the SL home page about how you can go racing. meh. I have 100 projects on hold waiting for Havok2. I'm no longer holding my breath on H2. Took LL a year to make logging in possible. I figure it will take another year or two to make a chat server that works. This game develops way too slow. Someone is bound to release a product that will eclipse this. /ends his touchy rant on SL physics and dev time.

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Why should I care about Havoc 2?