Real World Copyright

Cool Chip ty for answering my question I figured as much but really wasn't sure.

"some people undoubtedly would get that impression from your comment."

I guess I should have added "be sure to change the color of at least one stripe"

The copyright problem with clothes has nothing to do with clothing designs.

It's people who go around taking images off the internet of clothes and repurposing them for their clothing business in world and pretending that it's all 'fair use'.

What they don't realise is that a lot of work and trouble usually goes into taking those pictures and leveraging that hard work for your own gain without permission is not only a legal breach but also a pretty big ethical breach.

i'm curious. have you gone through the legal process necessary to determine what constitutes sufficient change in design to avoid legal infringement of a design patent? it sounds as if we've had very different experiences in this regard.

if i can find the competitor's product from my own experience, i'd be happy to graphically show just how non-discerning a patent attorney can be when it comes to determining infringement in these kinds of things. if you have a couple comparison images, i'd very much like to see. i'd venture a guess that like most things, it comes down to the luck of the draw. for some changing the color of one stripe is sufficient; for others much more is required.

I couldn't find any specific quantitative language, but every answer I found regarding design patents said that a change as simple as changing the color was enough to get around the patent.

i use to think that too. until i had to defend a design that imo looked nothing like the competitor's product. people need to be aware that the "eye of the beholder" could very well be the eye of some non-artistic, half-blind judge.

I have watched this thread with a growing sense of guilt...but I have avoided posting until I could get my thoughts ordered. I have to start with a confession that I have infringed the copyright of various artists alive and dead. When I first came into SL, and for some months afterwards, my attitude to bringing stuff into the game was influenced in part by thoughtlessness, and partly by what was already here. I thought of copying and uploading a picture here, and placing it into SL, in the same way as I might cutting one out of a magazine and sticking it in a frame in a doll's house.

In so far as I thought about it at all, I assumed that my actions wouldn't adversely affect the artist or copyright owner, because SL isn't RL. It didn't seem wrong then.

When someone pointed out to me what I had done, I was angry with them...and my thoughts did run along similar lines to the arguments that have been used against Moopf. Lots of people do it...why not go pick on one of them instead of me? What harm can it do? Who made you Queen of the copyright police?

After some reflection, however, I realised that it WAS wrong, and I took all the offending items off sale. I haven't put them back. It changed my way of thinking about the things I do in SL. If I am ready to defend my copyright in the items I have made here, I must also be ready to defend the rights of others.

There is still a grey area for me: I have an ambivalent attitude to dead artist's work, even though in theory these are still in copyright. With books, copyright ceases 70 years after the death of an author, and anyone is free to republish or plagiarise the work of an author after that period has elapsed. With art, the owner of the original work remains the owner of the copyright, and so in theory the owner of Holbein's work, for example, retains copyright in it.



This is also a grey area for me, however. People in RL make themselves costumes and artefacts from Star Wars, Star Trek, and other cult films, and there is a thriving trade in home-made costumes and props. In some cases this is even with the apparent collusion and encouragement of the copyright owners, because these fans form the secure market for the spin offs and future products...Star Wars fans, particularly, seem valued by the film-makers.

If Star Wars Inc. were in SL making copyrighted and approved merchandise, then it would be easy to see how they might be damaged by Joe Avatar making himself a light sabre and selling them. But for a star wars fan who loves the chance that SL gives him of being Luke Skywalker, there is no official merchandise.

I can see from the postings to this thread that people see a qualitative difference between making oneself a copy of a copyrighted item, and making one for profit, although I am not sure that in RL there is any such distinction. I think there is a distinction between ripping off a lightsabre in RL by cloning it using technology, and honing one - or three - out of balsa wood and acrylic and sticking it together with epoxy resin. But there are many people in SL who lack the ability to make themselves a light sabre, or a jedi costume.

Even in the RW, there are grey areas in copyright. Chip has already specified that in clothes making, change to a small detail is enough to protect someone from an action from a designer. I was also told that if someone makes an original work of art - say drawing Bugs Bunny from scratch - then as long as you don't label it with a trademarked name, it cannot be said to infringe copyright. So making a copy of a lightsabre in prims, wouldn't be an infringement of copyright, it is the labelling of the item with the Star Wars name and the title of lightsabre, which is wrong in law.

I realise that the answer to this would be for the people making such things in SL to gain the approval of the copyright holder, but as I discovered for myself when trying to obtain permission from Cyan to use images from Riven in Mysterious Journey (leaving aside the fact that I had unknowingly appropriated the name of an existing game for the title of mine), it is often impossible to get a corporation to acknowledge requests for permission, let alone answer them.

For a multi-national corporation it will cost them far more to enforce the copyright in SL at present than they would ever gain from it. They deal in business with a cold eye, and are unlikely to pursue people who won't affect their RL trade. Even holding a meeting to discuss the subject would probably cost their businesses more than it's worth. For a very large company, it is possible that even a request for permission would also cost them money and be more damaging than illegal use of the copyrighted names. I would be very interested to know how a large corporation would feel about it. My guess is that they would refuse permission automatically on that basis - that it can only cost them time and money to think about it.

An alternative is to avoid using Star Wars or trademarked names on things, as real life companies do. Thus our local toy shop sells "lightswords" which are, in all but name, lightsabres. That seems pretty pointless to me, although it does keep the toy makers out of trouble.

So...I am struggling to position myself in the debate, I suppose. I think that what I did before, simply using copies of other people's work in SL, IS wrong, and realised that months ago. I think that obtaining permission is the simplest way, if that can be done. I do see grey areas in SL that aren't there in RL, where people want the opportunity to buy and use things which don't exist in legally valid forms here... but I don't know the right way to regard those.

I think the debate is extremely useful, and I find it astonishing that anyone can have a problem with the subject being aired. I do think Moopf has been very brave.
Cali

Yep, and when it comes right down to it it's probably a matter of whoever has the most expensive lawyer wins.

Caliandris, there's nothing 'brave' about what I've done. You're the second or third person that's used that term in describing my actions. I just did what I thought was right, being called brave for doing it makes me feel a little uncomfortable to be honest Many things we hear about, see or experience in real life can truly by termed brave, pointing out a copyright breach doesn't even come close.

I appreciate the sentiment but can't feel anything but uneasy at being called brave for this - sorry.

/invalid_link.html

An example of an overzealous newbie who hasn't read the TOS r understands how streaming video works. The movies, being streamed, never actually hits Linden Lab. It's point to point. And although the vendor probably should be shut down, this kind of response is wack.

i think ll's mixed approach to content control (e.g. pg v. mature, trademark v. copyright, offensive v. non-offensive) is going to bite it in ll's ass big time in the future.

Well...I don't know a better term for it. Putting your head above the parapet in these forums always seems a brave thing to do. I know there's no actual bodily harm involved, but it can be difficult to log on and read people's responses to what you have said.

You had drawn some fairly serious fire in the previous thread... and standing up for what you think is right is the most that any of us can do in any environment.

SOrry to have made you uncomfortable though .
Cali

I really have i kind of serious question after reading this.

As I understand it contacting the company that owns the movies is fine - LL has even suggested people do so after explaining to the player why theres an issue.

Why contact the department of Justice, is up to the people owning the movie rights to do so.

But my question is this -- Wouldnt a EMAIL to customer service be more appropriate then a forum post?

And the general accusatory tone really doesnt sound like someone who wants LL to correct the problem, it sounds like someone TELLING them too.

Just a observation but the forums are for discussing ideas, yes its nice theres a hotline to the Lindins .. but I was under the impression actual customer service was done with emails.


-Edit seems email was sent - however it indicates a definite impatience to wait for a response.

exactly.

my long-held belief design patents are/were worthless was mostly from my pov... not from the corporate pov. in that regard people should simply be aware that there may be protections in place and that their actions may be called out. and while litigation in this arena hangs on subjective elements, we're all probably aware that the litigant with the most money to spend on lawyers usually wins.

my comments regarding the possibility these patents may have some worth is specific to individuals and small companies (i should have been more clear; my apologies). the case i was cited was that of a small company whose aesthetic design was ripped off by a Chinese manufacturer. that manufacturer was supplying a large US retailer. apparently the patent holder did something different: they sued the retailer. and won. an interesting twist. and for those creating IP within SL that may someday move out into RL, a case of interest. if i can learn more details i'll share. right now i think i'm hearing this one person removed from someone in that small company.

does it matter? seems to me SL isn't all that different than the BitTorrent sites that recently closed down under similar pressure.

bummer.

Thank you for saying that. In honesty I even think in many ways LL is encouraging breaking of copyright. I am not complaining about this policy as I understand the impact it would have. On the other hand others seem to misunderstand the impact. If these things were enforced and in the way I am seeing others in this thread do it when they encounter it. I doubt many people would be staying in SL much less caring about. Not to mention how many people have paid for thier programs they are using to make thier clothing, animations, avatars, textures. Yes I know they can be done on GIMP but how many are actually using it.

More than you think, on both counts.

Remember, too, that a lot of people who make a 'living' in SL by doing art also do so in the real world, and need the tools anyways.

Understood. I know many do own legal copies here and use them for work and play. But in all honesty if we are going to sceram about "lawbreakers" then let's go at the people that use the programs, stream the music, and host the locations in game to allow it.

Yelling at one person and chastising them like a child is unneeded when many will do it.

On a personal note these recent posts have made me start to wonder if I shoud advertise a ball gag I recently made based off artwork. If I get the same type of "welcome" others have been getting latly dispite putting in 10 hours of work into it then maybe it is not worth posting to get all this grief.

To use an old saying, "You have to start somewhere."

There's also an issue of responsibility and authority... LL has basicly no way to check what users are using pirated software, for example. It's not their responsibility to monitor what people are doing in the 'privacy of their own computer' so to speak. What gets uploaded to their servers, however, is a different story.

Streaming the music is a different story, too. Some of that is legal, some of it is a little less than legal. I agree it needs to be looked into at some point, but again, I say, it has to start somewhere.

The defense that "many do it" is a self-fulfilling defeat... No matter what point of the problem you attack, that defense will be raised by someone... "Why are you attacking me? Other people do it, attack them too!". And it's not really possible to get everyone at the same time.

I do not use "many do it" as my main arguement myself personally. I think the keywords here are "It's not their responsibility to monitor what people are doing in the 'privacy of their own computer' so to speak. What gets uploaded to their servers, however, is a different story." Now again I have no problem with being pointed out and reported if I break copyright. I am a rational, logical, kind person. But if I am approached with hostility I would become defensive as many others would. I have yet to see anyone here post "I am not sure if you are aware but there are similiar graphics here (link to site)", Instead I am hearing "You scammer", "You're ripping people off", etc.

I am not disagreeing with anyone here I am disagreeing with the Player to Player approach many seem to be using.

or something else.

here's the response to that Hotline: "Piracy..." thread:



i think i know where they're going with this as it's been on my mind for years. we'll see...

I should refrain from posting here, but I think I should add just this comment...

From this (and similar threads) I think I'm one of the naivest persons in SL

Let me explain. IRL, when I was in my early college days, I designed a (paper-based) RPG with my brother. I was trying to sell it to a company selling RPG and board games (very very hard in those days). I talked it over with them, they gave me suggestions and encouragement, I reviewed the rules accordingly to those suggestions, and, follishly enough, I had let them have several drafts and copies of my material. My cousin (currently a graphical designer, and a 3D modeller, who unfortunately cannot afford a decent computer to join SL...) would provide original artwork to the RPG rulebook. After some point in time, it became clear that the company wouldn't be paying me anything for my work. Worse than that: since they considered themselves part of the creative aspect of designing the games' rules (and had access to all my material anyway), they insinuated that the work was now "theirs" to use, should they consider to publish it eventually.

I panicked and got angry. The next day, I was applying for membership at the local Author's Protection Society. They cannot "guarantee" that copyright laws are never violated, but they pointed me to the governmental institute which archives all submitted creative work, and, as member of the ASP, they would give me free legal support to pursue my claims of copyright violation, if the need arises. I informed the games company of my intentions. They never published anything without my consent; sadly, neither did I, but that's not the point

Since then (and remember, I was really even younger and naiver than today ), I have been following all copyright-related issues closely. International copyright laws are very complex, specially in the US, where companies can buy IP "wholesale" with contracts that wouldn't be valid under international copyright laws (ie., to the point that the author's name is removed from the eventual use of the IP). Things are hard, very complex, and as some have pointed out, usually the better lawyer wins a case in court.

Of course, this also means I have been more careful in dealing with IP in SL. I admit I commited my mistakes; SL Exchange noticed once that I was using a Philip Morris trademark on one of my products (a cigarette pack) and I panicked - I was infringing a trademark deliberately! Thanks to SL Exchange's warnings, I managed to change that quickly (of course, tons of similar products are offered nowadays, all of them happily violating trademarks - just look it up for yourself).

Having understood that, I tried to evaluate all my items, and start looking for possible copyright or trademark infringements. The first thing I searched for were the animations. Fortunately, almost all of them have come from Renderosity, with a text documenting what "fair use" of those means: you cannot resell them (and it's pointless to discuss if a L$ sale is as real as a US$ sale - those currencies can be converted one into another, so it's a "real sale" for any lawyer), but you can incorporate them into your own products and sell those for a profit. That's why almost all animations I sell are either inside a dance bracelet or similar devices. Of course, I have encountered since then many designers selling those very same animations directly.

Then I looked upon clothes. Some were clearly derivative work - I used a specific patttern and bended and twisted it, making bikinis from scarves, T-shirts from skirts, or something similar. No problem here, but on some cases there were more doubts: if an avatar, wearing a piece of clothing, looks like a picture on a catalogue, is that a copyright violation or not? In case of doubt, I emailed the company and asked them about their feedback. I got no reply, which I assumed they simply were ignoring the issue as completely worthless. In any case, I stopped selling those items, and started to give them away as freebies. If you look at their Description box, they'll state where the original textures can be found. The items don't use either the companies' name or product brand, but still, they could be found not to be derivative work by a very good lawyer - in that case, I have to argue that no copyright infringements were intended, that the company was contacted and ignored my emails, and that I did not earn any monetary benefits from giving away those designs. Better than that, people could even theoretically go to their web site and buy the RL items - so, in a sense, I would be doing free advertising.

Thinking like that, I tried the reverse approach. Since this could, as a matter of fact, be considered advertising, what about contacting the companies exactly with that purpose? Mrs Jones had done a similar thing at Avalon, after all. So, I emailed several smaller companies (since the Big Ones seem to ignore me completely ) in advance, asking them for permission to recreate their items in SL, but using their brand names, and underlining the "free advertising" aspect. One Canadian company finally answered - they were very interested. So much, as a matter of fact, that I contacted residents with similar experiences and later talked to Robin about this. At that time, LL's official position was that the "community would decide if they accepted the advertising" - meaning that if residents would ask it to be removed, I had to do it. So there was a risk. The Canadian company was careful, but was willing to try. Unfortunately, I have too much to do in SL right now, and am a crappy clothes designer anyway, so I didn't pursue this line of business any more. My thoughts are that some day one of the top clothes designers get enthusiastic about this project and are willing to pick it up - I'll gladly act as liaison with the willing companies

I tried a similar project with companies designing pleasure boats and yachts. Again, there was willingness to allow me to use their RL designs to recreate the boats in SL as a publicity stunt. Again, I thought that the actual building/scripting was well beyond my current abilities. After all, they would like to see an excellent replica of their products. There were also a few issues with the intended audience - like, how do you bring a multimillionaire into SL to watch how a boat performs? But my point is, again, some companies are willing to let us use their designs in SL.

My latest experience was also interesting in a way. Working with some young adults, I thought it would be great to replicate a "game" using the Harry Potter "magic duels" concept. I think that this is something I can do with my limited scripting abilities, and it would surely be fun watching people point wands at each other and shout "Expelliarmus!" or "Wingardium Leviosa!" all over SL. So, I got in touch with J. K. Rowling to ask her permission for using the "Harry Potter" universe inside SL for the purpose of recreating a game based on the magic duels - I was even willing to consider a royalty agreement on each "magic wand" sale. Her agent helpfully pointed out that all rights to "digital usage" of Harry Potter had been sold to Warner Bros; that was my next step.

I did a bit of homework first. If you look up the thousands of Harry Potter fan sites, you'll see that many have done all sort of games about the HP universe. A few even have 3D games of Quidditch, for free downloading. As a definite fan of Harry Potter, I had some hopes of a positive answer - but alas, Warner Bros is trying to set up their own MMORPG in the HP universe, and, although I must have talked to the nicest lawyer in the world (really!), their official answer was a negative. All digital 3D content that could be used in a MMORPG-like environment is strictly forbidden, since WB wants to do a similar product.

So, I had to assure WB that I wouldn't use any HP-related ideas, names or concepts - we briefly discussed an alternative system that is so different that it won't be related at all to the HP Magic Duels. It'll be completely original - and, in a sense, SL will only benefit from it (remember Tringo!).

Just take a look at how many Harry Potter outfits and props are being sold in SL right now. In those cases it is absolutely clear that they are in direct violation of WB rights and desires. I'm 100% confident that the residents who did those never bothered to ask for permission, or they'd have gotten the same polite answers as I did. It's not my place to point them out to WB, of course, but now WB knows about Second Life (and, who knows, since all these emails were exchanged with JK Rowling's agent as cc:, I guess that even JK Rowling knows about SL, and who knows if she doesn't roam the grid at times, like Bruce Sterling and others are reputed to do occasionally...?).

Finally, streaming. There is no question about it: if you stream your own CDs at your home, you're entitled to listen to them. If a group of friends listens to them as well, there is no problem. If you do a "public" listening - ie. what happens in most clubs and malls - you are infringing copyright laws, without question. Even if you're playing a RL radio stream at your club/mall, you're in violation. I'm aware of that and that's why I have also taken a few steps to prevent any problems. The streaming server I use is located at a non-profit organization which has an agreement with the local Author's Protection Society (they handle the royalty payments). For a small annual fee - in some cases, it can even be forfeited to special organizations - you are allowed to use copyrighted material for a limited "public" audience (that's how tiny cafés are able to connect their radios to the loudspeakers, and still be "legal". The ASP will then handle the royalty payments based on that fee. Arrangements vary wildly, of course, and the question of what is "a public space" and a "private space" is hard to define in SL (let's say, for the sake of argument, that if I have the right to prevent people from entering a space, it's theoretically a "private" place, but, again, don't rely upon such an ambiguous definition - a good lawyer will be able to contest your claims of having a "private" place). Movies are even harder to stream legally, and that's why I've stuck with public domain movies (fortunately there are quite a few, and many of excellent quality) when video streaming through my server.

In short, here goes my experience...

1. Some people - the naive ones - take steps to comply with international copyright laws. This means stumbling upon tons of road blocks with little success. In the mean time, thousands of people are simply ignoring copyright laws, and making a (SL) profit out of it. You can watch that happening, but can't do much to prevent it.
   
2. Companies are willing to try things out in SL. Ask before you try. You may have some pleasant surprises. Companies who promote their wares mostly through the Internet are usually much more open-minded; they understand the "different medium" better, and even if they only want to do it in a limited way, it's a start.
   
3. The argument that SL is "too small" does not mean that Big Companies know about SL, although at the moment they aren't willing to check if their IP copyrights are being violated or not. I can only say that some of them are looking at what goes on in SL - but are just waiting. Others are actively starting their projects. You'll be surprised in what will come to SL soon
   
4. Make sure you only use your own artwork, or, at the very least, make sure that you do derivative work. "Derivative work" is almost universally as well defended as the original copyrighted work. As long as you never use trademarks, you can get easily away with derivative work, although, when in doubt, ask permission first If your emails are ignored, keep copies of them. In case of an argument, a good lawyer will be able to at least claim you have made all possible efforts to inform companies of what you're doing with their copyrighted content, and that your case didn't interest them.
   

As a final comment, I always get surprised at the number of people that ask me permission to use my content (the written material I have posted at blogs, journals, forums, or used in-world in notecards, slideshow presentations, etc.). As I've stated previously (and you can check it on my blog (it's way down the bottom of the screen), all my current written content is licensed under the Creative Commons "Attribution" license. You can do whatever you wish with it (even resell it) if you just mention my name

Since these are sensitive issues, I should have added...

Never take direct legal advice from an anonymous resident of SL!.

Experience varies. Legal systems vary from country to country, from state to state. Consult with professionals, not with well-intended amateurs. There are several associations or non-profit organizations who will gladly help you out iRL with your copyright and IP questions - many for free.

Don't take other residents' experience as "law" but only at their face value - they're experiences which they can share, but they may not apply to you or to your case. Always ask for professional help and don't base your opinions on hearsay or things posted at the forums.

Also, don't be afraid to contact them anonymously, ie. with your SL name. In terms of IP, your SL name is simply a "pseudonym", something which even very early copyright laws have dealt with successfully - the way your own creative content is tied to your SL name is as valid as tying it to your RL name.

Remember, it's always better to be safe than sorry!

Its copyrighted.. you dont like it.. dont buy it --;

OMG is that such a hard concept. Its board threads like this that made me leave the last games I played. A few people getting on their high horses ruining things for others. I mean seriously fashion is FASHION! When I was in jr. high I designed half the shoes and outfits that are in most clothing stores. But, Im not on some copyright kick.. because I was a child having fun. I designed sipper shoulder carriers.. I designed alot. I mean there is such an easy way to claim somethings copyrighted. You dont know if the person had written permission to use the name.

-.-; So much grandstanding high horse drama...if you dont like it try playing 'right wing goverment rules of no freedom' .. its called the real world. You can go there and be wrapped up in alot of pointless rules and be happy but I came here to play