Real World Copyright

Over the last few days I've been invovled in an exchange of words on the New Products - Clothing & Accessories forum regarding the blatant abuse of artistic work on t-shirts in Second Life. I am starting this thread here as Jeska has now locked that thread, saying that that forum was not the place to discuss it - so I presume this board would be. I'd seen several Lindens previously view the thread (in fact Jeska edited somebody's comment on there a day before) and I know that I have discussed the issues on that thread with a Linden in-world who didn't feel the need to lock it down after reading it. I won't name anybody on this thread, so you can look here for the background:

/invalid_link.html

I've been quite amazed at the main responses bringing up the issue got:

1. Everybody else is going it, so I'm just going to follow suit.
2. If I'm going to pick on one, then it's my responsibility to pick on them all.
3. I don't care if people are doing this and I'll buy them anyway.

Taking those in turn:

1. This is an easy attitude to take but one which will end up making the situation worse. If things get truly out of hand and DMCA notices start flying, or even proceedings again Linden Lab (even though these may not actually get a result in practice, that would not stop companies issuing proceedings and tying up both Linden Lab time and money defending the claims), then we all could lose out.

2. This seemed to me to be completely nonsensical. I had to explain multiple times on that thread why I had picked on that one - because I had indepth knowledge of the place where these designs were ripped from and felt comfortable with my understanding of who owned the copyright and who did not have permission to use them. Other brands were mentioned a lot, but they're not brands I know of, and so I wouldn't actually be in a position to follow those through.

3. I find this point really disappointing. One person on that thread made a point of going to buy all the t-shirts simply because I had drawn attention to it. I can sort of understand that people may not see such an issue with the ripping off of large corporation imagery and designs, but to do this to a small company and many individual designers who participate there just seems morally wrong. Neither are right, and I'm not justifying either one.

I've never sold anything that I didn't have full permission to sell. Not once. I've never knowingly purchased anything in-world that I knew was ripped off from other people's talent. And I cannot understand how people think it's acceptable to abuse the copyright of other people's work for their own ends in making some L$ and ultimately in many cases, US$.

So I'd like to open up the discussion here to gauge a larger response (if possible) to these issues, and the reasons I've highlighted. Do people just not care? Do people honestly think that nothing wrong is being done by merchants such as those in the thread linked above?

Linden Lab won't do anything regarding copyright without DMCA notices being filed, they'll only do that with trademarks. The biggest problem I've found in talking to the designers who's work has been ripped off in this instance is that they just don't seem to "get" it. So could the policy of not acting upon blatant copyright infringements now be storing up a multitude of problems for the future when Second Life is more visible and it's not such a strange thing to understand? And when monies involved may be even greater.

I've been left really perplexed by this to be honest so I'd really like to hear what more people think on the issue. Am I just being stupid or a fool, as I have been called on that thread?

Pretty sure Sl has safe harbor as long as they support DMCA.

You can sue people for copyright infringement btw. You don't have to send a takedown notice. A takedown notice is just a cheap option for those of without resources to sue.

and, yes it's very rampant.

The fact in the end though, it's a karma thing. If you can live with yourself, I'm sure you can keep it up as long as you want. Nobody really even knows about SecondLife.

However, one thing SL should be aware of though are developer incentives .. if they pay people to create content which is infringing copyright.. are they complicit?

It's an interesting question.

This is a standard response from a corporatist oligarchy (Lindens) who lack the resources or desire to create, monitor, or enforce intellectual property laws. I recommend creating an elected form of supplemental federal government under the watch of the Lindens to compensate for this shortcoming. That way, if the elected officials don't care or aren't doing their job, one can elect new ones.

Of course, this requires an increase in the complexity of our federal government.

~Ulrika~

They may have a safe harbour from actually losing any suit brought again them, but does that necessarily mean that it would stop a large corporation trying it anyway - I mean law suits fly left right and centre in the corporate world. And I bet they have bigger pockets.

I'm starting to wonder if the DMCA allows Linden Lab to shy away from the issues and not devote any resources towards it, pretty much exonorating themselves from doing anything pro-active. So, is the DMCA, and the trumpted upholding of it in Second Life, actually such a good thing in the long run if it just allows apathy?

It is, but I'd go further. If a resident brings an example to the attention of the Lindens (which I have done so in this case) and the Lindens do nothing and allow it to continue, are they being complicit in the copyright abuse? How would a court view that I wonder?

Not anymore complicit than any internet service provider.

I can violate a myriad of rules with just HTML.

Easy ideas of selling t-shirts I've rejected because of copyright ethics rather then quietly exploit people:

- thinkgeek.com
- homestarrunner.com
- numerous video games

It's tempting, but in the long run... ripping people off is not cool.

Yes I've just been Googling for information on this and it appears, at least in the US, that this is the case. I see that the DMCA was primarily constructed for this reason, so we can take it that this gives service providers an ability to take zero responsibility unless the actual copyright owner files a DMCA, even if the copyright abuse is shown to be happening to them.

This buffer must exist, for the net to exist.

I told you moopf, General Forum is the place to discuss it... Not New products

But you never listen

Ripping off anyone's IP is a Bad Idea.

I avoid it like the plague for anything commercial.

This is a simple issue.

Imagine you spend weeks trying to think up ideas for a cool t-shirt design.
Finally, you have a GREAT idea!
You spend hours drawing it. Your miss a good movie on tv and a big family barbeque, and you're up too late working on it so you're a wreck at work on Monday morning.
The design turns out great, so it's all worth it!
You post it online, you get kudos from the other regulars on the site.
One day, you try Second Life.
You look at clothing in a SL mall and think, "Oh wow, I can put my t-shirt design on a shirt and sell it and maybe even make enough to buy those boots!"
Then, in the next booth, you find t-shirts for sale . . . with YOUR t-shirt design on it.
WTF!
Worse yet, you find out it's been for sale in SL for months, by someone you never heard of, and just about all the people who wanted a shirt with that design already bought one. Even if that other person stops selling shirts right this minute, the market's already saturated. You can't sell your own shirt design!
Yes, that's right, you've been FUCKED by a lazy thief!

Even if this were RL, and you took it to court, all you'd get back would be money (if you could afford to bring suit . . . otherwise, well, wonder how many cases of ramen noodles you coulda covered with the money, eh?). Here, you aren't gonna get shit. Even if you did get money, well, you still wouldn't get to sell people your design on a shirt. Someone stole your art, got the money that should have been yours, the acclaim that should have been yours (someone else got the ratings, the "Hey, great shirt!" comments, and the Show and Tell "WTG", applause, and prizes). They took all that from you. All you get is that horrible, violated, ripped off, pissed off feeling that anyone has when they find something of theirs missing and realize it's been stolen. The world just doesn't seem to be quite as nice and friendly a place anymore for a while.

What a shitty thing to do to someone just to earn a couple of L$.

Copyright infringement is theft of more than just money.

wuvme, I'm afraid you don't read. The Lindens allowed that thread to go for over two days, knowing what was being discussed. Jeska viewed it and edited one of the posts at least a day before she closed it and Robin also read it a day before as I discussed it with her. Why they've closed it now I don't know, but they certainly didn't act upon the basis that Jeska has closed it with before, when the content of discussion had been on exactly the same issue.

I cannot see how it should not be allowed to make people aware of blatantly obvious copyright violations on the same thread that they're promoting the products that contain that violated work, but then all of the reasons given by you and the vast majority of others why I was "wrong" to do so have been pretty weak.

Hi,I've only been here a few weeks and the copyright thing seems a little blurry in SL.It says one thing but allows another.It feels really wildwesty sometimes,I think there needs to be some IP protection Board that can hear cases for the small designer.Also a birthdate for the Creation inside the object would be usefull for sorting out the who made it first type situation.I was thinking of putting made in SL lables on my stuff with the washing instructions to,40 degrees,100 cotton,no tumble dry,no photocopy.

General forum- Discuss your ideas, and observations about Second Life
New products- List new products for sale

Think of all the threads that Lindens look over, it takes sometime for them to close them.



Attacking people is "Inappropriate"

But im glad you finally found where to post your concerns about sl
Anywayz good luck, because im not posting anymore on this subject
Cya later moopf it has been fun, even though if you hate me.. i still wuv ya.. LOL

OK wuvme, whatever you say If you think people should be able to advertise anything they like without anybody being able to pass comment on those when they are blatant copyright violations then I respect your opinion. I totally disagree with it, but then I respect it.



Yes it was an attack, on attack on their complete lack of morals. I do not see how what I said was unwarranted. But then, you are the person who went and brought all the t-shirts because I'd caused a fuss, weren't you, and I quote from the original thread:



So I guess your attitude towards ripping off copyright explains why you feel I shouldn't of said anything on that thread, don't you?



I've never said I hated you!?!?! You, however, went as far as to say I would be racist if I'd picked you up on your spelling at the end of one of your posts on that other thread, which I still find totally bizarre. I never once picked you up on your spelling and I've never been racist.

LOL wuv ya moofp LOL your wrong.. lol im right get over it cuz i did a long time ago... LOL NVM.. NOT GETTING INTO IT!! LOL

Im kidding moopf.. LOL i think your right.. *really* LOL but attacking people will not solve the problem

If you think I'm right why did you knowingly buy all the t-shirts that were ripped off? I don't understand that. But then on that thread I saw the creators who did this say they knew it was wrong but were carrying on doing it anyway. I guess I just don't understand how you can have one opinion, yet completely disregard it at the same time

Saying nothing will not solve the problem either.

Well i think that they are not the only ones who does this, tons of ppl i know and i see that does this. I bought the shirts because they looked cute, even though they did not make them.

So saying it, it will remove the shirts from sl??

A thief is a thief.

If a person is comfortable with being a thief... Well, whatever I guess. Heck, I made a couple t-shirts based off ones on thinkgeek. With the difference being, I never sold them. I created them for myself, and that was the end of it.

But there is a wide chasm between being a 'thief' that duplicates something for your own use and a thief that tries to profiteer off the work of others. It's like the difference between downloading MP3s (Wrong, but a ton of people do it) and selling MP3 by the hundred on DVDs on the streetcorner. One is a whole 'nother level of sleeze and filth, and trust me, it will be treated as a much more serious issue if the authorities were to catch you. When your profiting off something, even the flimsy "It's a victimless crime" (which is generaly bunk anyhow) vanishes.

There is also a bit of a difference between "inspired by" ripoffs (As is a ton of the fashion industry in second life) and direct plagarism. A particular jacket may be inspired by a name brand. It may or may not fall under "fair use", but at least it's not just trading on the success of someone else... It required work to make it a viable SL product. A t-shirt with mickey mouse on it is theft. It required no real effort, and is just trading purely on someone elses success while giving them the finger in the process. Both are a little less than sterling, but there is a world of difference between the two.

I understand why LL only acts on DMCA takedowns issued by the creator: Because verification otherwise would be a nightmare. I wouldn't want to see other residents have the power to try to do that, because it creates some nightmarish judicial problems. Doesn't mean I'm happy with it, though.

No is hasn't, but I have to say attitudes and actions such as yours do nothing positive towards solving it at all, they just help it take root and blossom.

Tons of college students cheat on tests and papers.

Tons of people download MP3s illegaly off the internet.

Tons of people buy bootleg DVDs at swap-meets and flee-markets.

Tons of people pick pockets.

Sorry, you can't justify morality by "Everyone else does it". It's still wrong.

Well he was attacking her personally, why dont he attacks everyone who does it?

he claims: "I dont know other ppl that do it just this one where i shop at"
I think that he is right, but attacking the person is not going to get it out of the shop.
If he would have talked to the person they could have agreed. But attacking them will not solve any problems

He could have called them in second life, and have spoken with them.. and ask them kindly to remove the product from SL, if he had issues with the items or copyrights concerns.

They are new designers to SL, maybe they did not know better... He could have at least talked with them before Hijacking a forum thread, Calling them theifs (even if they took the image) does not solve any problems

If he did spoke with them, and then they were rude or refused to take it off..
Then he could have did all the drama he did

Anywayz its 7am and i have not yet been to bed.. LOL ill come later on cya