Real World Copyright

Yall? Can you tell me that none of the links in your helping hand project for newbies take them to places that violate copyright laws? If some of them do, arnt you contributing to it as well? Welcome to 'yall'.

Clothing designs themselves cannot be copyrighted. Textile patterns, brand names, and logos are protected, but the designs themselves are not. If someone makes a replica of a london fog coat but doesn't sell it as a london fog coat, they actually aren't violating copyright law. In real life, designer knock-offs are only ilegal if the seller is trying to pass them off as the brand its a knockoff of. Just thought I'd mention that.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with photosourcing your designs, provided that trademarked/copyrighted brand names, logos, etc are not being used.

If you take an image of a pair of jeans, and use the photo to make a pair of jeans, but remove all logos/tags etc that show the braind name, you have done nothing that I feel to be wrong.

If you take a picture of a shirt with the babyphat or adidas logos on it, and create a shirt in game that clearly shows the logo, I do think that is wrong. That's the difference to me.

I don't think taking ELEMENTS of an image of any given shirt is wrong - say to help you create realistic wrinkling, or shadows, etc... but brand names, logos, copyrighted characters, all that - I do think is out of line.

I will admit here, that as a new designer, I was very guilty of using a couple of things here and there that WERE in fact, copyrighted. I am not making any excuses for my actions. It was wrong of me. Plain and simple. Thankfully, since removing the materials in question, I have a clear conscience. I didn't have a publicized enough store to have had any customers! hehe I can tell you from personal experience that it means a lot more to have people love something you personally created from scratch than to have someone love a t-shirt you uploaded with someone else's work on it - be it an independent artist or the work of an artist employed by Warner Bros.

Bottom line - whether you agree with Moopf bringing it up in the forums or not, he is just looking out for the IP rights of others, and I don't think you can fault him for that.

But he does sell his items on websites that sell the very things he's complaining about.

Or it damages SL as it gets a reputation as Bootleg City. If SL wants to attract content creators it could get to the stage where people wouldn't touch it.



This is a shame but is actually totally understandable. This isn't actually a creative environment - it's an environment that allows you to create if you want to. It also allows you to pick up strangers and gamble.

We musn't presume that people would prefer to create than have sex. Sex is a key market in SL - people want their avatar to look sexually attractive and 'normal'. The users don't see this as an exciting, cutting age creative medium. They see this as a medium which allows them to replace THERE, TSO, various adult chat services, chat rooms etc. It's being used for graphical social interaction.

There is nothing wrong with this. Welcome to the mainstream.

The current problem is:

You rip something. You sell much more. You stop doing original work. Nobody ever gets done so it's not really illegal. (like all the silly laws that exist but don't get enforced). It makes business sense to rip if you just want the sales.

For this to stop - someone needs to report it to graphic designer/artist X whose work has been stolen, they need to understand SL, join to verify this and then report it to the Lindens. It's not like being given a web link which you can check out instantly. For one thing you need a credit card to verify. Is it worth giving LL your credit card details (if you have one) to stop it? I think if I thought some bastard was making money out of my work I'd find a way of stopping it.

For those who think that there are no victims (or that the victims are multi-billionaire corporate bastards) I'd like to show you DeviantArt's rip reporting forum.

Some of them lose whole portfolios. Some have scum selling prints of their work on ebay. Most deviants seem to be under 18, fwiw. Some are at college, I was easily the oldest at the one meet I went to.

I know the usual suspects are going to say "I don't care! wtf!! lol1!11" but maybe when they are in their islands tonight they'll consider the teenage artists they stole from, or maybe not.

We could tell them to check SL (those who make gothy paintings, or things with wings are most likely to have things stolen in general) but most won't be able to as they are under 18.

The status quo means that LL don't have to do anything and I imagine they never have. What I *think* will make LL do something is when it starts affecting their bottom line. SL will get a reputation for art theft. If LL wants content creators they won't come here. SL will then stagnate into a graphical knocking shop. Even little miss WTF!!LOL!1! will suffer then.

I'm sorry, is this another attempt to have a go at me, because I brought attention to this? You want me to remove my items from slexchange.com I take it?

They're also for sale in the system I use - Second Life. I suppose next I'll be contradicating myself if I continue to use Second Life at all by your own reasoning?

You know I've had some really poorly thought out things thrown at me for bringing this up, both here, on the slexchange.com forum and by PM and IM. Some of you may not agree that I went public but, you know, I knew how the land lay on this straight away and so did the people who did this. They didn't have the courtesy to get permission (either positive, negative or ambivalent) so why on earth should I have shown them the same? I'm not going to sit back and say nothing, whilst people line the their pockets by selling work they haven't even bothered to contact the copyright owners over.

But OK, you know what, just to make a point I have removed my items from slexchange.com. Happy now? If it gets rid of petty nit-picking aimed at me because I dared to start this then fine, I'll do it.

May i restate these? Thank you.

For Trademarked stuff one can contact the Lindens, however the detailed instructions one might expect (given the detailed instructions wrt Copyright infringement) are not available.

So what exactly does LL need from residents in this particular case? If I report something as a trademark violation will LL research the validity of that accusation? Or do I need to provide some substantiation? What if the individual has the right to use the content? Are we now wasting LL's time? This isn't or shouldn't be just a one-way street. Having residents casually filing reports of trademark abuses doesn't sound reasonable to me.

For copyrights that arent trademarked, if you wish to take action you must contact the copyright holder and they must take whatever action they deem appropriate; you cannot officially report a violation in order to resolve the issue within this community.



Is this what the community wants - for disgruntled SLers to start making phone calls? And by disgruntled I don't mean content creators. I mean anyone who gets pissed off and wants to retaliate.

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I added this to one of my hotline posts, it's not as restrictive as I'm sure some might believe. Why is this not an option?



"as part of a business" - creating "fan" content may violate a law, but it wouldn't have to be registered. if someone wants to report this activity to the real IP owner, more power to them since it's doubtful a big corporation is going to chase a single violation in SL with any more effort than they chase down home-made Halloween costumes.

"for sale" - so if someone is streaming content (similar to how a RL club DJ plays music), it may violate a law, but this use wouldn't have to be registered since the content is not "sold". if someone doesn't like that the neighboring club is streaming pirate mp3's, then they can contact the RIAA.

So either shut up and conform or close your business?

My personal approach about copyright issues is this:

I will break them.

If the owner of said item has an issue and someone in game approaches me about it I will be glad to take it down provided the following: The owner of the copyright contacts me by email. I would gladly provide the In Game rep with my email address to have the owner contact me. Now of course if a Linden said take it down I would do so right on the spot and even offer the Linden to follow me to observe me removing sales of said item.

As for the L$ to $$ transfers personally the only transfers that would take place would be to pay for tier or such. Otherwise I would go out of my way to seperate sales and anything that was not a copyright violation I would then use for RL reasons. Frankly and personally I don't observe this game as a cash cow or to help me make real life earnings so I have yet to do this.

Also remember the economic impact of removing all trademarked/copyrighted things in game. Which I have stated before:
A) All avies, objects, clothes, etc that are copyrighted would need to be removed. This is probably easily 25% of all in game sales. People would buy less, etc.

B) ALL MUSIC STREAMS WOULD NEED TO BE CUT OFF. I doubt few here have paid for a "public play" version of these songs. This also applies to Music Videos or anything that has a full song in it.

Also alot of the many "talks" that have gone on in here about these things have been very hostile right from the beginning. Maybe pointing it out kindly would have a better approach and if they say no...let karma get them back. Personally I had one that I reported to the owner becuase I knew the owner. I enformed the person in game and they were very nice about removing the picture.

i believe clothing designs can be patented (see www.uspto.gov re: Design Patent). i don't recall if any of the softgoods products i've done were submitted for Design Patents. possibly. i don't always get credit and sometimes the paperwork doesn't find me.

these kinds of patents are relatively simple and cheap. gone are the days when you needed a specific kind of patent drawing. i've submitted cg renderings (6 views) with no issues. people might not wish to casually assume there are no IP protections in place.

Nope. I dont know you. My comment was simple. I found it odd that you were so concerned with copyright violation but found no problem listing your products right next to the ones you were complaining about.

If you sell your products on your land or at locations that valued copyrights, then I wouldnt see the irony.

Aimed at you? Nah. I dont know you nor have a grudge nor wish you any ill will. Im replying simply generic person I dont know says this and does this and I reply with my thoughts. You can remove your items if you want, SL loves drama, but Im indifferent nor 'out to get you'. Simply stating my opinion given what I've read.

Nope. Suggesting why does he do business at a location that doesnt value copyright laws if he values copyrights? He cant control SL, but he can control where his products are sold; ie which websites or in game locations they are for sale.

The UK has something called "design rights". I posted details about Monsoon vs Primark in a previous thread.

Nope. He controls where his products are sold. Sell them at locations that value copyrights. Simple.

You sure have a way with words Chris. I'm not sure you could be more condescending if you tried, reducing myself and what I've said to the notion of "generic person". So it's cool to lump people you don't know together as "generic" is it? Is that really the way you feel or deal with others?

Actually I used the term generic to imply to you that it could have been ANYONE and my response would have been the same; ie not aimed at you personally. I did that because you seemed to take things WAYYY too personally and as if I was out to YOU personally. By using the term 'generic', I was hoping to difuse that notion. But instead it seems to have been used to create more drama. Oh well.

And speaking of 'the way you feel or deal with others', what about your comment to me in a previous post:

Seems you wanted to make me feel I was solely responsible for you removing your products. Is that how you deal with others? Create drama and guilt?

Chris your original message left no doubt who you were refering to:



You know, maybe if you had phrased it so it was impersonal, or a generic comment then it would of been understandable, but you didn't make the original comment generic.

If I've misunderstood you though, then I apologise. I've been getting a lot of flack I didn't expect for exposing what went on with these creators, and have been for a couple of days now. I guess I'm a little on the defensive right now because of that, so if I've jumped when it wasn't needed then I am sorry.

I understand man. Im sorry for the unneeded heat/comments. Anyways, your old 4 prim vendor is still the best and most reliable IMO!

Yeah, try not to use the word "You" when posting. I find that helps avoid conflict.

One thing to realise, is that LL should *not* take down something simply because someone unrelated thinks it is copyright infringement. What if the original producers couldn't care less if someone was borrowing their ideas in some tiny little game nobody knows about? Maybe it's free publicity?

Maybe the original content has a commons type contract on it. Does LL really have the time to fully investigate? No. Neither should they have to or ISPs / Internet / SecondLife becomes un-scaleable and impossible to run.


The point is, if you think something is copyright infringement, contact the original holders of the IP rights. Don't contact LL.

Shall I instead refer to the set of persons including and encompassing the entity known as blaze Spinnaker...

That and many other things Blaze which is why I prefer the copyright owner contacts me and by a source I can trace and track.

Yep, good point Csven. Clothing can have design patents which cover only the aesthetic appearance of the garment for a period of 14 years. They're very ineffective however. Change the color, add an extra stripe or remove one button, or any other minor change and you're not in violation of the patent. That's why designer clothing is knocked off with impunity.

understand where you're coming from. i've been in the "they're useless" camp for years. not so sure anymore after a very recent conversation with another developer. he informed me there's a new legal way to leverage a design patent. and someone won a lawsuit that way. has me reconsidering their value.

but the real point is that clothing designs are not just free and clear to copy. some people undoubtedly would get that impression from your comment. and whether it be through a copyright or a design patent, the legal protection is available. how people circumvent the law is another issue imo.

Since most of the clothes I make are replicas of real world clothes I did quite a bit of reading on the subject to make sure I wasn't setting myself up for trouble. I still consider it a gray area even now, but I think people bringing in real world logos, characters, trademarks, and the like are the definite problem areas. Those aren't gray areas at all.