Community Standards: Tolerance

If I may, I think you and Jon are making the same logical fallacy here -- to equate a trait, medical condition, or state of being with an action. If I'm an alcoholic, but have not had a drink in a year, I'm still an alcoholic. I still can't have alcohol, or I'll abuse it. I'm not a "non-practicing" alcoholic or anything else. I'm an alcoholic who hasn't had a drink in a year.

I'm gay. I don't have sex very often, though. That doesn't make me straight, any more than it makes me a eunuch.



All research has indicated that once someone develops a sexual paraphilia, there is no possible way to "unlearn" it. A pedophile is not someone who abuses children. Pedophilia is a sexual attraction to children. It's believed to be a very common paraphilia, but the vast, vast majority of all pedophiles never offend.

So no, pedophiles can't help what they are.



These depend on the motivation. If someone commits a murder of passion or of convenience, (yay, insurance money!) that's far, far different than someone who kills because they are a psychopath. Anyone can make the choice to kill, but not everyone who does commit murder does it because they feel compelled to. Rapists can commit rape because they genuinely believe that their victim is consenting, but most do it because they have a violent paraphilia, or as an element of a serial murder.

So the answer here is "most of the time".



If you're straight, or gay, make a concious decision to be attracted to the opposite sex. Can you do it? If so, you're a bisexual. You always have been. Statistically, most people are sexually attracted to both men and women, but it's almost never 50/50%. The only people who can successfully "turn" gay or straight already possess some level of attraction for the same or opposite sex.

So no. Gay, straight, bi... nothing you can do will change that.



If you're addicted to a substance, or prone to substance abuse, (as in alcoholism) you can get clean. If you're an alcoholic, you will always be suceptible to substance abuse. The two are different things. Someone can abuse alcohol without being an alcoholic, just as someone can be a drug addict without being necessarily prone to addiction.



In cases of neurological (as opposed to situational) depression, or related mental illnesses, no. Only through medication and therapy can someone emerge from their depression in this case.



Often, it depends on when they became Christians. Someone can find religion later in life, but it's the first 5 years that really determine whether or not it's ingrained in your mind. So the answer here is "it depends."



Medical science believes that transsexuality is caused by the same factors that cause intersexuality -- people born 'between' sexes. Several studies have indicated what appears to be the part of the brain that determines gender identity, with a high correlation to the percieved gender of the transsexual. So no a transsexual can't choose not to be a transsexual any more than you could decide you were suddenly a member of the opposite sex.

That doesn't answer the question. I could report everyone in this forum for hating me just because of they made fun of my slant on Christianity, but it wouldn't mean anything--I don't sense that I am hated (except by a few people who actually came out and said it, whom I shrug off). The report must be justified before they take action. The premise of their "Disciplinary Action" is that "expressions of hatred toward a person or toward the people of a community shall not be tolerated". This is the only rule that is claimed I have broken.

I take Disciplinary Actions seriously, and I reexamine my actions seriously when I get them. But I still have yet to find reason to apologize and repent for "expressions of hatred" toward anybody. I don't CARE if I said something that someone didn't like to hear, it DOES NOT violate any of the specified "intolerable" rules if I did not "express hatred".

Waffle House is right down the street..will that do?

Ok, first, no wide generalizations here hun....not everyone has flamed you for your beliefs.

Did LL actaully take action against you? I'm under the impression you just got a warning.....which doesn't seem like a big deal.

And I did answer your question Jon...someone did find your expression offensive....which can fall under "expressing hatred".

And I don't think anyone has asked an apology of you (could be wrong though), just that you don't use words that can be viewed as slurs against a particular group.

edited for spelling

etc etccetcetc


its still a choicees.. bleh.. get use to it.

ppl cant choose to be mental, though some like to be. met
some of those inSL already. seek help u suck. stop hurting others with yur lamenesss

not all rapists believe, some like to just dominate or becaue a female hurt them in hte past.


pardon spelling. slowly comin off the drink. so forgive the crap spelling.

i like your replies though catherine. makes me respect u evcen more. i liike intelligent discussions. i miss them since coming to SL.

not able to find many anymore.

very sorry for first comment. very pushy. my aopologies. not very intelligent of me. sorry.

for the gay teen who hears someone else use the term "gay" in a context like "that's gay" when that person is talking about something they don't like...

yes. it's hateful.

when you use "gay" to denegrate something. it's hateful.

i think its more hurtful.. than hateful


its like a mentally challenged person hearing someone say 'you're so retarded' or somethng like that.

or someone obese being called a shamoo or somehting..

yes though, some have used gay as a hateful comment.

I dunno. I think its more hurtful than anythin thoguh.

in general, people aren't subject to derogation for smoking.

[/B]

his concern isn't so much the problem as his manner.

he has said hateful things. when he who disapproves of homosexuality says, "that's gay." it's hateful.

it's different when a homosexual person says it. it is the case that members of a group may say things that non-members may not.

his actions/words are hateful. perhaps it's unintentional, but it's hateful nonetheless.

* * *

fred phelps is shooting fish in barrel. jon's subtle form of bigotry is much more harmful to homosexuals. it attempts to justify intolerance and bigotry through the seeming of reasonableness and rationality, when it comes down to an assertion of faith.

I agree with you Julia...but the problem is how other's perceive it.

Someone could call me stupid and I could see that as a general comment about women. Doesn't mean if that's how the person meant it, that's how I saw it, and therefore makes it valid.

And yes, I know that you can't know what will offend people all the time, but if you've been told, is it that hard to stay away from it?

who judges the hatefulness of an action?
the assaulted or the assaulter?

hate isn't always an intentional thing.

most assuredly, any oppressed group who has ever heard "faggot", "feminazi", "gook", "nigger", "jap", etc. will tell you it's hatespeech.

using "gay" to denigrate something is hatespeech. at the very least it's the in-grained hate built into the part of the society of the time. and more often than not it is also an expression of the hate in a person's heart.

Guys, the issue I bring up is one pertaining to hatred. With the exception of His Grace, who feels justified in confusing "offense" (based on his own misunderstanding) with "hate", no one has been able to identify anything "hateful" in anything I have said in-world.

Yes, I find feminity in males to be "gay" and also "undesirably feminine"--two separate but similar things. I find it to be "gay" because I believe that we men are born with a natural need for a feminine companion to be whole, which I perceive is why gay men are often (not always) feminine--to initiate what they know they need. Such views are personal views and conclusions of the behavior of homosexuality. They are founded on my own personal observations. They are not founded on prejudice, stereotyping, or Bible thumping--to presume as such is to stereotype and prejudice ME for having such views. All people who are against homosexuality are not haters nor stereotypers based on hearsay or brainwashed, ignorant thinking. Some of us reach our own conclusions just on the basis of our own interactions with said people.

I, too, would like to see this and all other negative threads I've participated in to die out, and since I see absolutely nothing constructive in these threads, I withdraw even from reading this thread any further.

Since no one can dig up an instance of in-world (in-game) intolerance toward gays, I have nothing else to say. LL accused me of making hateful remarks to/about gays in-world. They made a Disciplinary Action (a mere warning, but an official "Disciplinary Action" in their words nonetheless), quoting their basis as the Community Standards' policy that "expressions of hatred toward real-world persons or communities will not be tolerated".

I deny it altogether. I've never said anything about gays in-world, and I've never expressed hatred toward any people here in the forums despite observing my own disagreements with certain behaviors.

If LL is going to say next that the forums are considered in-world, there's a lesson for all of us to learn and not just myself. But unless the term "hate" is justified in this case, I consider LL to be overstepping its social boundaries and abusing its Authority. I appreciate the valuation of tolerance and not offending others, but not to the extent of appreciating LL's readiness to declare one's account as being in jeopardy for expressing one's own views, based solely on misunderstood word choice in open forums. I offend people by word choice, but that's what happens in forums. Especially one called "Rant, Harangue, and Objurgate". Hate, however, is a strong word that demands qualification, and I simply don't see it qualified in this case.

Six page debate on the meaning of "tolerance" and "hate" even to a veteran philosopher like myself this thread has never been anything other than mental masturbation.

If you really believe that you arent living in the real world....have you noticed all the laws lately against smokers?
Non-smokers make derogatory statements about smokers constantly.



I have witnessed evrything Jon has said on the matter and not once as an intelligent comprhending person did I percieve Jon to be hateful ...just ignorant...there is a huge difference.

bullsh*t...if words are to be labeled as hateful by anyone for any reason then no one should use the words....if a gay man calls another gay man a "fag" then the connotation is the same...you can't play by childrens rules and say I can but you can't.


if his actions are unintentional as you point out they can't be hateful...only ignorant.

Well smoking around others DOES have harmful effects on the ones around them, second hand smoke. Homosexuality is not like that, in my opinion.

But I do agree with the word useage. It doesnt make it 'ok' if anyone says it. Kind of like the "n" word used by blacks. You hear it all the time used by them but if another uses it, "oh that's racist". It was racist when you were using it like every other word in your speech. Color doesn't give it a right unless you want to then call it reverse racism or something.

Ooh, i LOVE Waffle House cheese omelettes.

Aren't you overstating the negative connatation of the word gay in today's society a bit? Especially since ALL of my friends who are homosexual use the word 'gay' to describe themselves. How politically incorrect can it be then?

I tried mental masturbation once. Did you know your brain swells when you take it out of your skull? Almost impossible to get it back in.

Don't think most are able to mentally masturbate. They're either to busy thinking of the other head or just don't have enough TO masturbate up there, if that were such a case.

For some reason everyone thinks teens are talking about homesexuals when they say that. I used to say that a lot and I wasn't making fun of homosexuals. "Gay" means happy or wonderfull. It's an old word. Used by old people. I dislike a lot of old people so that's why I used the word. None of my friends I hung out with used to make fun of gay people, we were ALL making fun of old people.

AND I'M NOT KIDDING.

*Sniff* You big meanie. See if i offer to loosen YOUR clothing again!

If someone reported you (or anyone else) for saying "this is gay" or "that is gay" in a fashion to denegrate it, it's just as likely as not that it wasn't personal. This is a common and very irritating and degrading and offensive feature of a lot of teen-dood vocabulary. To call something bad, they call it gay. I don't really have to know someone is an anti-gay Christian to be annoyed by the phrase.

On the choice thing. Two classic answers.

First when did you straight people decide to be straight?

And second, good lord, with all the hate in the world do you honestly thing someone would choose to be lesbian, bisexual, gay, or trans (at least being gay is free, trans is like all the bigotry of being gay, but with a $100,000 or so of out of pocket expenses).

Regardless of your own personal opinion, the etymology of the common (Principally among 13-year-olds, but even teenagers have language, you know.) usage of "gay" as a denigratory adjective is unrelated to the much older word for "happy". It's directly derived from its meaning of "homosexual". The phrase "He's so gay." changes from "he's a homosexual" to "he sucks".

Whether or not you chose to assign other meaning to it when you use is is beside the point. It's how it's taken by others that's important. Language is built through consensus. If we choose to use our own dictionaries, it breaks down.

[edit: clarification]

Are you trying to tell me that... gay men... dont suck?

I dunno Eggy.. do they?

*ducks and runs for cover*