Community Standards: Tolerance

Blah, I knew I'd be sorry if I got into this steaming pile of... yeah.

Lorelei Patel said: "I don't know where you live, but where I am (and pretty much anywhere in the U.S.) that is not the case. You can SAY anything you want to people, short of yelling fire in a theater or libeling them. There is no constitutional right to go through life unoffended. There has never been such a right, and I sincerely hope there will never be any such animal."

There are many cities and counties that actually have profanity ordinances which make it illegal to utter certain swear words (you can actually receive a citation, not get arrested for that.) And I don't know about you, but if someone bothered to take the time to tell me exactly what he or she thought I was doing wrong with my life, it wouldn't take long for them to cross the line between "gentle advice" and harassment/assault, especially if it involved blocking my path, following me as I ran away plugging my ears, or even grabbing at my shirt. I was speaking more of the right that we, as free citizens of the U.S. (since that is where I live) have not to have someone else's beliefs imposed upon us in a threatening or unwanted fashion.

I have been threatened by someone who thought I cut him off on the freeway, then proceeded to follow me back to my workplace and then tell me he was going to follow me home that night. I promptly wrote down his license plate number, called the police and the issue was dealt with by the authorities. People DO NOT have the right to make others feel threatened or harassed, and this is supported by the law in most parts of the free world.

I must admit (as I did before) that I've never met Jon in-world and I certainly can't speak for how he treats anybody or anything he has said to anyone.

However, forums are an extension of the world of Second Life, especially the Rant forum where you must be a player to post. If Jon asserts on forums or in-world that he feels that gays are somehow suspect or flawed or essentially worthless (my words, my interpretations, not Jon's) in his eyes simply because he is a Christian, I find that threatening and harassing. It doesn't matter if he does it with a creepy, glazed-eyed "I don't hate YOU, I hate the fact that you're gay!" smile pasted on his face, he's still doing it. Period. And that's what ticks most people off.

I don't really care what your religion is; paint your naked body blue and dance around in your back yard while you worship the moon, for all I care. Just don't tell me I'm any less of a person if I don't want to do the same thing.

OK. Maybe I'm missing something, but I've never seen Jon in these forums ever say gay people are "suspect or flawed or essentially worthless." Whay he DID say is he thinks it's a behavior that harms people. People tell me that smoking harms me all the time, but I don't think they're hateful for doing it.

Am I missing something here? Has Jon said something that I'm just not seeing?

read the post two or three above beryl's. the one where jon implies "gay" == "disagreeable feminine".

or the one where jon implies that "gay" == "bad".

you missed some of the bloody ones.

Hm. Nope, i still don't agree, then. Saying that he felt he looked "disagreeably feminine" doesn't quite reach my definition of hatespeech. Not everyone is metrosexual

The only blood I read about had to do with rectums, which, in all honesty, was just silly imo. I still have not seen where he said gay people are bad people. If it's out there, please point it out to me.

Well unless someone can dig up an instance of in-world intolerance toward gays, I have nothing else to say. LL accused me of making hateful remarks to/about gays in-world, and I deny it altogether. I've never said anything about gays in-world.

If LL is going to say next that the forums are considered in-world, there's a lesson for all of us to learn and not just myself.

[edit: "bashed" to accused and "bashing" to "making hateful remarks"]
[edit: removed a misunderstood comment]
[edit: bumped to end of thread]

Well, the terms of service do apply to even the "Way Off Topic" forum. It's highly possible the message you were sent was in error and it was for one of your posts on the forums that you were issued the warning. You should ask for clarification: "by 'in-world', do you mean 'on the forums'?"

Even if so, I was not hateful here in these forums, which is another topic. People twist my words around to make me say things I did not say ("'gay people' == 'bad people'", which is just pure evil IMO.

At any rate, I find the term "in-world" to mean within the virtual space of the game. The web site is shared by the community, and I know that the TOS applies here, but that's TWO things that I refuse to admit or agree with.

1) I have not been hateful toward anyone. See first post of this thread. According to the community standards, tolerance is valued, but only expressions of hatred is not tolerable, and I have not expressed hatred. If you think that expressing opinions about behavior (i.e. [attempted suicide / whatever the subject] isn't something that is agreeable to me as it causes a lot of grief) is hatred, I simply disagree with the notion and don't see any point in debating such a frivolous position.

2) "In-world", seeming obviously to mean within the game (to be distinguished between the forums since the distinguishment is made ALL THE TIME among so many of you), I haven't even MENTIONED gay people.

Edit: "people", making no reference to any quote specific
Edit: "think"

equating "gay" with "disgreeably feminine" is perpetuates the oppressive stereotype that gay men aren't "real" men.

that's degrading and ignorant and hateful.

I didn't equate "gay" with "disagreeably feminine". I did, however, say that I will change reference to "gay" to "disagreeably feminine" when my avatar looks ... different, so that the target of my words' interest is the feminity being disagreeable, rather than not wanting to portray homosexual behavior. Consider it a relief, not a threat, and an admittance that a line does need to be drawn. In other words, we're arguing the same thing.

In any case, I most certainly don't think that gay men aren't real men, I never said as much, and I agree that such would be degrading.

[Edit: added I never said as much]
[Edit: added "and an admittance that a line does need to be drawn. In other words, we're arguing the same thing.]
[Edit: don't think I, to, didn't

It may be *wrong* but I don't put it in the hateful category.

I played around at creating a male avatar in world one day. My friend Roxie said -- and I quote -- "You look gay." Was she hateful? Think twice, she's a lesbian.

I hear all this stuff about homosexuals having no choice being what they are. Well I guess then..

Pedophilies have no choice being what they are

Rapists have no choice being what they are

Murderers have no choice being what they are

Straight people have no choice being what they are

Bi sexual people have no choice bei.. wait.. they got choices nevermind. LoL

Drunkards have no choice being what they are

Drug addicts have no choice being what they are

Smokers have no choice being what they are

Suicidal people have no choice being what they are

Christians have no choice being what they are

Transexuals have no choice being what they are

and the list goes on.. pardon the crappy point to similar things but that's the best I could come up with at so late in the night.. caawfeh.. gimme...

Oh he deleted all those! but he did say exactely that.

I think part of the problem here is perception. I am surprised at the number of folks on these forums who seem to think that anytime someone disagrees with a statement they made that they are being personally attacked. I can disagree with someones thinking, without attacking them. And, surprise! Someone can believe homosexuality is a wrong lifestyle choice WITHOUT hating homosexuals. It doesn't necessarily make them right, but it also doesn't necessarily make them a hateful person. Besides everyone knows its the gay, bipolar eskimos you have to watch out for.

Since I am not going to sit here and argue choice or no choice I will pretend that people have no choice in being all the things you listed. So how is homosexuality different from pedophilia or drug use or all the other bad things you listed? NO ONE IS BEING HURT BY IT! Being gay doesn't cause a bunch of children to need therapy for the rest of their lives. It doesn't make your heart explode from an overdose at 20.

I was trying not to say anything in this thread but that one was just over the top. Plan and simple Jon Morgan the reason people aren't wrapping you in a warm blanket and telling you everything is okay is because the tolerant cannot tolerate intolerance. I don't know why people think that if you believe in tolerance you must tolerate intolerance. it doesn't work that way, it can't work that way. I refuse to respect people who don't respect others and no matter how many poor me threads you make that will never change. You sound just like Death Grace with that mindless why do you people judge me just because I am judging an entire group of people based on something that in no way reflects their character. The difference between what the people in this thread and others are doing from what you are doing is that we are judging you as a person, from your words and actions, not because of your skin color, or your gender, or sexuality OR YOUR RELIGION. Believe it or not there are plenty of Christians living their second life just fine, its not because you are christian, its because you are you. No one can ask for more consideration than to be judged by their character, and you have gotten that. So keep playing the victim, but you won't get any pity from me.

If that were the case and I believed it, I wouldn't care nor would I express my opinions against it. However, I quite obviously disagree with you here, and I delved briefly into it in another, more relevant thread.


I could care less about how you criticize me. However, I will continue to protest being accused of expressing hatred toward people or communities to the extent of having my account being jeopardized.


Edited: added "and I believed it"
Edited: added second paragraph

Jon, this arguement could go round and round forever, and it's kinda pointless to continue. The bottom line is the Lindens told you what you did wrong, and no matter how ludicris you think it is, you still have to watch your word choice.

You not being able to describe something as "gay" does not hinder your ability to express yourself......

this thread reminds me of this t-shirt..

http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/tshirt.php?sku=a112


jack danielsmade post it..t

So you're telling me that describing something as "gay" is a hateful comment, one that merits account jeopardization?

Edit: "one that merits account jopardization"

LMAO Julia! I think I just woke my husband up laughing.....I'll just blame it on you!

*scratches head*

To use the smoking example again, because I am so familiar with it

My mom sees me smoking. "You shouldn't smoke," she says. "It's bad for your health and it will kill you someday."

Maybe I keep smoking, and she keeps nagging. You know how moms are. Naggity nag nag nag.

I'm annoyed, granted. But did my mother act out of a sense of superiority? Out of anger? For the sheer joy of ticking me off? No. She actually gives a darn.

Does she hate me? Anyone who says so is itchin for a fight.

Likewise here, if I can try to understand where Jon is coming from.

He thinks homosexuality is harmful to the person who practices it. He may even tell them so. And lo, despite his warnings, the gay people stay gay.

Do they get fed up with him saying what he says? Apparently.

Does that mean he says it to annoy them? Not necessarily.

Maybe, just maybe, he is actually concerned for you You may not want that concern. You may think he's dead wrong. You may wish he would stuff it. But entertain the notion that maybe, from where he stands, he says it not out of hate but concern.

Or maybe you're right. Maybe, god forfend, he thinks his way of life is superior to yours. But then, I've heard more than a few people here tell Jon that he is mentally inferior for his beliefs, too. And yet, I don't recall those people being chided for acting "superior." Why the double standard?

Or maybe Jon just doesn't like homosexuality. Heavens. But then, who said he had to? Do you feel obliged to like his form of religion? If not, why should he be obliged to like your way of life? And can't you all feel the way you do and still breathe the same air? Can't we all just get along?

Listen, I have stood toe to toe with Fred Phelps and I have my conversation with him on tape. I watched the spittle collect at the corner of his mouth and go flying through the winter air when he hurled epitaphs at total strangers. I know for sure what an angry gay-hater sounds like. I've sat across the table from a "national director" of the KKK, and I know what that sounds like, too.

I'm just not hearing it from Jon. I don't agree with all he says, but that doesn't make him a monster.

i
s

drinking.. sorry.. kinda mucked up speeling right niw. : )

Doesn't matter if I think it's hateful.....what matters is someone did, reported you, and you got a warning from LL to stop using the language.

Something my mom used to tell me might help you here... "You don't have to agree with or like my rules, but as long as you live under my roof, you WILL follow them."

every1 needsd to stop fightning and go to internationla house of pancakes and order some.

I;m hungry.

You know, Julia? You're my kind of person

[/B]

I fully believe that is the reason that Jon expresses his feelings to people, never thought anything else.

But the problem occurs when people get offended by it.

Everyone has their own definition of abuse and harrasment....should the people who feel put off by his comments have to change their beliefs about the harrasment?

I'm not saying either party is correct because this is a tricky situation....but as I said before, LL has spoken and told Jon he should watch the words he uses from time to time. So I don't really see what more there is to say.