SL Smaller Than It Ought To Be!

As I said before, the best thing I think could be done right off the bat is to change those default settings to the lowest possible, while giving clear instructions somehow as to how to raise them and what the effect of raising each will be.

As for the barren thing, I don't know why they say that. It doesn't appear barren to me. There's a lot of LAND, sure - but when I was in There a year or so ago, that place seemed a lot more barren. But then - I'm not the one who said this; I'm just reporting what I've heard.

As for the things to do, it seems to me the Events Calender is terrific for that, and something we would have loved to have had in TSO. (Imagine not having that for your events!!) But what they meant was nothing to do in terms of productive for them to do, to further their own personal goals, aside from scripting and building.

coco

P.S. AND - if this is the way it is always going to be, just scripting and building things for other people to consume, we can expect a lower retention rate than in other MMOG's, as the consumers will come and go through the revolving door much as they would at Macy's.

If you wanted actual quotes, you should have specified them. Then I could have decided whether or not to spend time digging them up for you.

The only reason I have stated "It IS a game," is in response to people condescendingly telling me that it isn't at all, and I should refrain from using that word. They most certainly are not trying to "espress that it's fine" if I view it as a game. They are expressing in repeated and no uncertain terms that it is NOT a game. And not to be called one.

coco

P.S. Those weren't sarcastic examples.

I'd be interested to hear from a new user who used the services of a greeter to see how that helps ease people in to SL.

Eh, they sure read as sarcastic to me - not to mention, they aren't quotes at all.

You're right - I should have specified that I wanted quotes. And you should use actual quotes if you're trying to prove what is still a nebulous claim of a "mantra".

As a writer, I am honestly suprised to see you put quotes around your interpreted view of what people meant.

This is why I am quite honestly a little unsure of whether or not the sentiments you report from the people who tell you why they are leaving SL aren't a little rewritten for effect as well.

I don't know about anyone else, but I've seen a few of those 'quotes' bandied about on the forum too. Or at least the general gist of the quote.

Coco has real points to make. Too much time is spent on trying to make them absolute when they don't need to be to be valid.

I don't see attributing what individuals say to a "mantra" which newbies are supposedly subjected to as "valid".

Coco used to get upset at having her thoughts regarded as the selfsame thoughts of Prokofy - I just wish that she would treat individuals who say less than nice things to her the way she has asked her thoughts to be treated.

Absolutes or not, it's an unfair attribution of the feelings of individuals to an undefined group of people supposedly preaching a "mantra".

Which is what I mean by spending too much time making them absolutes. Some of what some people say is annoying or problematic, and it's valid to say so, and to say they may contribute to lost new users. It hardly needs to be paitned as a "mantra" to be mentioned.
Yes, well, a big, scary, nebulous monster is a better target than people with faces when your issues are really fairly innocuous by comparison.

1. Nolan, I'm not trying to prove anything.

I don't have any nebulous claims.

These are my observations, and my views. Not "nebulous claims."

You asked; I told you.

I didn't all of a sudden come to a complete loss of my senses when I arrived at these forums, such that my own recollections, observations, opinions, judgments and analyses became total crap with no relevance to reality - in, for some odd reason, only this one place.

You can disagree with my experience and my review all you want. Or disagree with Margaret Mfume's observations all you want. Or whoever's observations, experiences, opinions and judgments all you want. One can accuse them of not being forthcoming enough; of being sarcastic; of being unreasonable while others have been nothing but kind; of being biased beyond seeing straight; of having some neurotic need to be holier-than-thou; or any number of dozens of other similar "explanations" for why what they perceive isn't what you perceive. And you might convince others.

But what you can't do, generally, is convince that person that they didn't see and experience what they did, or that their take on it - unlike their reasonably tried-and-trusted judgement in every other walk of life - is, for some reason, totally off the wall in this one mileau.

2. The things I have heard people say about why they don't like this game are the things I have heard people say about why they don't like this game.

I have no motivation whatever to rewrite things for effect. If that were the case, I definitely wouldn't fall over so easily whenever someone points out an error of my ways that I can see and agree with. In such cases, I immediately agree, say I stand corrected, and apologize if appropriate. I have no interest, here or anywhere, in misrepresenting facts, whether I like those facts or not. Such would not be within the scientific method. I have never fudged ANYTHING.

If I tell you that people have said things to me, you can take it to the bank that people have said those things to me.

3. As for the quotes which were around my examples of bits of mantra, I had no idea anyone would take them to be real quotes. If I were digging up real quotes - which I'm not going to do - I would definitely attribute them to whoever said them.

4. By the way, no one has said they quit the game over the forums, and I never claimed they did. I just said the way the forums are definitely isn't exactly a selling point. That is my opinion, and I stand behind it. What I can tell you is I know people have been turned off by the forums, both people currently in game and those who no longer play. That is not a portrait of forums good for player retention.

coco

Agreed, with one caveat.

If a person leaves SL because of what some blowhard said to them on the forums - I am afraid that they should hide in their house and never leave.

If I walk into the neighborhood saloon, and some dumbass accosts me because he thinks he is superior because he has been a customer longer than me, I will laugh in his face and carry on with my life, ignoring him, rather than telling the other customers that there is a shadow group of customers who chase off new customers. If I do so, I am contributing to the problem. I am helping to scare people off.

Well, if for that reason alone, yes. But as one contributing factor, I'd be dinsinclined to agree.

It is my fervent (if nugatory) hope that the very point you've just made is seen clearly.

Then why the continuous claims? Claims are made to prove a point.

But you are allowed to try and convince people that there is a mantra projected by a group of people, which is driving off newbies. I see.

You've politicized this. Anytime people politicize things, I take their claims of what unnamed people say to them with a grain of salt. That's not going to change.

I think you do have a motivation - to try and convince people that the forums are generally a scary place, in need of reforms, where newbies are "run off" by an unnamed contingent of people.

I don't know you from Adam really. It would be very naive of me in my opinion to take what anyone who sits at the other end of 1000s of miles of wire and fiber as gospel. You make statements like "I am probably the best person a newbie could run into in TSO", and to be quite honest, speculative, self-promotion on that order causes me to question the veracity of some of the things you claim. This is not the only example. You have made other statements like "I am probably the most honest person you will ever meet". When people make such claims, my spidey-sense starts to tingle.

Well, quotes are called "quotation marks" for a reason, because one is quoting what someone has said. Also, I realized you would come out with the, "which I am not going to" bit. It's your MO, make claims, and then stalwartly stonewall by refusing to back them up with actual, historical facts.

Here's what you said:, "but at least we can stop running them off by the forums. "

"Running them off" - not "turned off by the forums", quite a difference there.

I'm just going to sit these endless arguments out. Call me when the war is over.

Hey - it just occurs to me something I think, but which I probably need to say, and am probably LONG OVERDUE in saying.

I have pointed out often what I think is wrong with the forums. However, it is remiss of me not to have pointed out what is RIGHT with them.

And here is my opinion on that: You couldn't get a much brighter group of people on any forum, much less a game forum. (I think I've said that before.)

Or wittier, or more funny. Panda's pics are the funniest and most apt ones I've ever seen anywhere, often diffuse tension, and sometimes are actually the best part of the thread! That recent thread on funny songs had one of the best little parodies on it I've ever seen (I'll have to go back and find out who wrote it, then I will edit this post - I think I remember, but I'm not sure), and even people's signatures are often funny! Also their blurbs ("eats babies," "causes lag," and another favorite I can't remember just now.)

As someone said on another thread, the level of thinking on the forums causes people to hone their debating powers. In addition, you all already know I like people who make me think (and lament the loss of one such).

On top of all that, we're discussing something here that's of great interest to all of us. Combine mass quantities technical knowledge, industry knowledge, player knowledge, wit, intelligence, and passion into one forum, and you've got a pretty good deal.

What I refer to - in terms of turn-offs - is all that prevents these forums from getting an A in my book. I don't mean to say that in every other way they aren't wonderful, and filled with a lot of good people. If they weren't, I wouldn't still be here, and still trying to improve those parts which don't, imo, garner an A.

coco

Edit: I was remembering the wrong thread. Here it is:

UP A KEY!

I have on mute each resident who's last name ends with THERIAN
And I confuse most people when I talk about quanterions
I bite my thumb at newbie ranks that form the proletarian.............

....and politic in certain sims that might be themed bavarian...

by Siggy Romulus

If I run across that other blurb, I'll add it here.

Edit: I remembered it: "Moved to off topic." If it weren't already taken, I'd use tht one myself.

Oh come on Vincent. It's not a war, and to claim that it is, is a bit hyperbolic don't you think?

Coco and I have spoken in world on occasion. We don't hate each other. We disagree about the state of affairs on the forums, that's all.

You have to admit, it looks rather war-like.

coco

Thanks for acknowledging this Coco. This is pretty much how I see things as well. I guess my hackles raise a bit at what appeared to be a continuous stream of negativity torwards the current state of the forums.

There was a time, when I was very reluctant to post here. When I first started SL, there were only a few hundred players in SL total. Therefore, the forums had a very small group of people who posted, and to be honest, I found it to be quite clique-y. I was afraid to post because there were 5 or 6 people who already had 1000s of posts by summer '03 who would jump on you if you brought up something that had been spoken about before.

Nowadays, there are so many more participants that the existence of such a clique is not possible.

I think that the forums have grown and changed for the better by leaps and bounds since then.

I was literally quite intimidated back then, and I didnt even make my first post (outside of advertising homes for a company I belonged to at that time) for months. How things have changed!

Does arguing the meaning of 'quotes' really help us with why 'SL is smaller than it ought to be' ?

I wonder.

The first half of this thread was Csven vs Pol.

The second half seems to be Nolan vs Cocoanut.

Just an observation. I skipped past the first argument and now skipping past the second.

That's how I see it anyway. I know I'll be corrected if I'm wrong

Well, I dunno Coco, we don't call each other names or the like. We do get irritated with each other, but when contrasted with the real forums wars that took place last winter and spring, it's like comparing chili to chicken noodle soup.

If all you're going to see and point out about my posts is the semantic issue about quotes, then I guess I don't much care what course of action you decide upon.

Being dismissed in the manner with which you're doing it, doesn't lend to my being concerned too very much about your take on my views.

Also, I shouldn't have to point out that 3 pages out of 12 doesn't constitute half the thread.

Can anyone spell 'pedantic' lol

Yes. You are correct. I picked one irrelevant thing out of all the others to comment on.
We shall leave it there and return to your normally scheduled program lest this turn into another argument

Can anyone spell "hyperbole"? lol

Which program was that?

The one where you were going to "just going to sit these endless arguments out"?

The one where you contribute to the "war" by making snarky comments about irrelevant things whilst ignoring the main body of the responses?

Or the one where you critique my posting style and responses?

The uh program about not being able to keep SL residents which we keep diverting from somehow. I shall concede the box to you and resume my spot on the couch watching the show and let you get the last word in

My only aim with my posts here is to try and request a ceasing of arguments and a resuming of chat about how to retain visitors and residents.

Well, Vincent, I don't want the box, that is not how I think.

Merwan started the thread, by the way, so if I was about to heed any admonishment, it would be from him.

In case you didn't notice while trying to dictate the goings on in this thread, Coco presented some possibilities as to why we lose some folks, and I was debating that with her.

That's how it goes here. Just be glad you weren't here last spring. You would have had a heydey stating you were going to stay out of the real wars we had here, while actually contributing to them.

Generally, when one addresses someone as you have me, one would expect a response - that is not called getting the last word in, it's called being afforded a chance to respond...

I thought this quote from David Linden was probably the most interesting and overlooked part of this thread thus far...



To me it acknowledges that SL must first appeal to developers by providing a good platform to create compelling content. As that happens SL begins to appeal to more and more non-developer residents. We're not at a point where SL has mass market appeal yet for the reasons that have been bandied about in the thread so far... namely there's perhaps not enough mainstream type activities to appeal to the masses yet.

I think an important point implied in that quote is that at this stage of SL's development that's an expected state of affairs. It's also a state of affairs that's changing gradually but steadily. There's no quick fix or feature list to be implemented to give casual players more stuff to do. The path for LL is to develop the tools and the platform to allow user developers to create more compelling content that attracts and keeps more casual players. That's been happening all along. It's just a gradual curve, and it seems to be progressing quite nicely.