SL Smaller Than It Ought To Be!

To actually see the lack of diversity on the events list today, i stripped all those popular tringo, slingo and quintzee events. (I have no opinion about the quality of these events, never go to them.)
I also stripped all 'yard/garage sales' events, 'slots' events and 'free money giveaways', as the other most popular types of posted events.
Also i stripped the double events.

This is what i end up with:

3:00AM PSYCHIC AND RELATIONSHIP MEDIUM Shai Vixen
4:30AM PINKYS MEET A NEW FRIEND!!! alice Pinkerton
6:30AM L$500 Best Avatar Contest @ Night Mountain Timmy Night
7:00AM *Teazers* PresentsToo many Teazers Jumping on that Bed Class KissMe Under
10:00AM BLOOD 21 - Newest and Hottest Game in SL Trinity Cole
11:30AM Sea Attack!!! @ Carnforth Narkon Wolfe
12:00PM * TeaZers * Windows Paint Girlie Night
1:00PM Teazers Basics-Inventory Controls Renee Riva
1:00PM Making your SL romance RL romance? kyela Aubret
1:00PM Black Raven Newbie Classes - Object/Prim Creation and Editing Ravenis Black
1:00PM SECOND FORTUNE GAME, Faded Reality Claire Glitterbuck
2:00PM Thinkers @ Neualtenburg - Intellectual Property in SL Gwyneth Llewelyn
2:00PM **WATER FEATURE CLASS** oliver Prototype
2:00PM ~*~*TeaZing Good Games*~*~ Aphrodite Wishbringer
2:00PM Reopening of the Sin Club Merr Muromachi
2:00PM TIGHT JEANS CONTEST Jessica Rocco
3:00PM Sailboat Race Kanker Greenacre
3:00PM Club Cherry Charming - FREE item exchange Party !!! Owner Olafson
3:00PM Country and Western Dance at Wild Horses Adam Davis
3:00PM **WATER FEATURE CLASS** revised oliver Prototype
3:00PM ** Freeplay at Golgotha Firing Range Knightstar Grasshopper
4:00PM New Player Questions and Answers Bob Bunderfeld
4:00PM 101 Philosophy Problems Barbarra Blair
4:00PM Newbie Welcome Party @ Shelter Travis Lambert
4:00PM Are Freebies Good or Bad for Economy? Prokofy Neva
5:00PM Freebie Exchange Party @ Shelter Travis Lambert
5:00PM NEW PLAYERS PARTY/Happy Hour Charissa Korvin
5:00PM Dance Party @ Marius's with Twister Radio & DJ Flash Marius Maracas
5:30PM poetry time Buba Scott
6:00PM NOOBIE Show & Tell @ NCI Brace Coral
6:00PM Game Show: Payment Podium Travis Lambert
6:00PM Good VS Evil @ Club 69 Tracy Marlin
6:00PM *FASHION SHOW* MIRAGE PLAZA PRESENTS ZELINNA JACQUES Daphne Molinari
6:00PM BattleMace at ElvenGlen! Perwin Rambler
7:00PM Word Hunt @ The Elbow Room Judah Jimador
7:00PM Event Rod Fishing Tournament @ Neo-Realms Sweegy Manilow
8:30PM HERO VS. VILLAIN @ GANSGTERS Isys Mondrian
9:00PM ** Water Polo ** Brock Zander

I'd like to make clear it's not my intention to remove any of these events from SL. I just wanted a clearer comparison between the two lists, to see if the lack of diversity was a reality or just an illusion caused by the flooding of the list by identical popular events.

Now, the resulting events list isn't that much different from the one a year earlier. It has it has about the same amounts of event types.

The test didn't meet the stated goal.

So I guess it passed the stress-test due to no-shows...

I see Damian has already done the analysis I was going to do, using a different method. (I'll probably still do it, using my own method anyway, lol.)

So: The variety of events is still good. What we have, actually, is simply more events to choose from, now filterable.

As to retention of players, if there is such a problem (i.e., if the problem in SL is in actuality any worse than for other games, and I don't think we have established that), I would put it down to the following things:

1. First, and most important, not knowing how to fix your settings so you can move. Someone suggested making the default settings as LOW as possible, and I can't think of a single better suggestion I have ever read on these forums. I almost quit over this problem, and I was very motivated, by friends already here, not to quit.

2. Nothing to do. By this, I mean nothing to do AFTER you've run around and gone to the events and all that. It only takes that first trial week to realize that there is nothing to do in the game except build, script, and deal in land. It takes only that long to figure out, for example, that there is no incentive for providing entertainment. It takes only that long to figure out there is no way, whatsoever, to get a foothold in the game or make any money except for the options above, or buying it (buying tier, buying Lindens).

Now - if this is the way it's going to be, fine. But that means that of those people looking for something to do besides build, script, or deal in land, or just socialize, many will not be retained.

If the desired set-up is in fact to be nothing other than two types of player - the content providers and the consumers - then you've got to accept that those looking for a challenge that isn't scripting, building, or dealing in land, will not be retained. And even the pure socializers may become bored after a while. Then you are going to have a revolving door of consumers no matter what, and retention therefore isn't really an issue. Non-retention is built into the design.

3. Technical issues like lag, teleport problems, etc. I see a lot of people wanting these issues to work better before new features are introduced, but I don't agree. I think the Lindens do an almost perfect job of balancing what they CAN do technically at this point (lag), and dealing with the bugs, along with, at the same time, providing new features. I think if they did any LESS in the way of providing new features, they would lose even those of us who are happy making content. Their rate of providing new features keeps me interested and happy, and has since I was new, five months ago.

4. A rude attitude toward new players on the part of older players on the forums, and even toward each other as well. Those who don't agree with every bit of accepted SL mantra get ridiculed off, with the comment not to let the door hit them in the butt on the way out. This arrogant and snarky attitude has more effect than you might think, on all the new readers, and many established players simply don't care. In fact, some seem to want the game all to themselves.

coco

What are you talking about? Tons of older players have issues with LL and they have no problem gripping about them here.

And yet again, another sweeping generalization about older players being rude. Totally unfair. Just because your experience in the forums hasn't been stellar, doesn't mean other newer players have had the same. Totally depends on how you chose to relate to people. You came in guns blazing.


SL isn't for everyone. The tools can be daunting and it requires some effort ot make good content. It's challending which is why i like it. But I can understand why more casual players don't stay. I still think SL is in a sort of cult-like stage. You either really like it, or have no idea what "the point" is and leave.

It's not about griping about issues with LL. It's about the tone of the forums towards other posters, which isn't lost on any new readers. And I did not come in here "with guns blazing" anymore than I came in here "with a chip on my shoulder" as you said I did almost immediately after I arrived. I came in here as myself.

"SL isn't for everyone. The tools can be daunting and it requires some effort ot make good content. It's challending which is why i like it. But I can understand why more casual players don't stay. I still think SL is in a sort of cult-like stage. You either really like it, or have no idea what "the point" is and leave."

Exactly. I happen to like building, so that's good for me. We can't really expect to retain those who don't enjoy that sort of thing.

I think the Lindens hope eventually those who build content will ALSO build things players can do to make money, along with games/within/thegame, like Darklife, etc., and that will ultimately solve the problem. I think they are also banking on the model where we pay to enjoy Spitooney, for instance, or Backstage.

I don't think it will ultimately solve the problem, though, because there isn't any built-in way to make providing these kinds of things profitable. Dwell isn't enough, I've heard, and the event support has been pulled. I'm hoping it's a sort of temporary experiment, and if it doesn't work and work soon enough, more Lindens will be infused into the system to support these kinds of things.

The description that it is still sort of a cult thing is pretty apt, I think, and not a bad thing. Retaining players is important, but probably not more important than other considerations at this stage, particularly when the numbers of new players and their rate of increase is so impressive. Any other game would give their eye-teeth to have a growth curve like SL does.

coco

This is completely innacurate. As is your comment about older players being rude to new ones. It has nothing to do with being old. Tons of old players are awesome. Plenty of new players are rude. It has everything to do with the person and nothing to do with how long someone has been here.

You are exactly right, Ingrid, and I stand corrected in that over-generalization of "older" players. I have often noticed the same snarky attitude in players who really haven't been here that long. My apologies for the faulty dichotomy between older/newer.

coco

Coco, I don't mean this to be rude, but you should look at that the other way around also. Your generalization about older players was rude. Could your views perhaps be colored by your own bias? If you treat people according to that view isn't it reasonable that they might be offended and not treat you as well as you might like? These things are always a two way street. You came out of the gate swinging because of Prok and you've never backed off since. Isn't it reasonable to think that people treat you according to the assumptions you've made about them all along... assumptions that perhaps aren't at all fair?

Ouch!

Probably the most telling question asked in this thread so far... And the one no one else wanted to ask.

My own view was that, as at the time the test was first announced the system was on it's knees most GMT evening with 1500-2000 users on line, there was very little point in it.

Subsequently the test was postponed and a new patch and other under the bonnet stuff (most notably the asset server improvements) were put in place before the test was finally carried out.

However the question you raised still remains. LL should know damn well what the numbers they could attract are. They should know how many of the accounts are in fact alts. They should know exactly what the retention rate is.

The question is, do they? On the face of it I'm afraid the answer is very probably no - I've seen/heard far to many unrealistic figures produced by Lindens and LL to believe them any more. At best they seem to operate on guestimates - highly optimistic ones at that.

So your answer probably is that it was as much about seeing if they could motivate 5000 customers (or even if there are 5000 real individual customers) as it was destruction testing the grid...

Maybe most people trying out Second Life are lured in by the (incorrect) hope that it's just another highly-structured game like WoW or EverQuest or whatever? And since that's what they're looking for, and they can find better elsewhere, they leave? So it's going to be difficult, if not impossible, for SL to retain the vast hordes of gamers.

I am not a gamer, myself. As I've reiterated far too often (but, whatthehell, here it comes again), I've never played a single online game (nor an offline RPG-type thing, for that matter), and have never even been tempted to. I was drawn to Second life precisely because it seemed to be a complete virtual world, with an agenda no more restrictive than the choose-it-yourself agendas of RL. And that's what it is, indeed, and I'm so amazed and happy that such an environment is available a decade or so sooner than I would've guessed it would be, back when I was a William Gibson-reading twentysomething.

And I'm not a creator, either. Well, certainly not one along the lines of the Cubey Terras and Aimee Webers and FlipperPAs and other assorted aFICianados of this world (and more power to them, btw, especially because the ones I've actually met have been as gracious and charming as they are creatively talented and hardworking). I can join enough prims to build an extremely modest house on my land, but that's about it.

But I don't *need* to create products to enjoy SL. It's enough for me to exist within this virtual world, and enjoy the fruits of others' labors, and interact with the friends I've made (and continue to make) --- to chat, to explore, to (surprise!) play games, to dance, to do the sort of things I do in RL but to do them in SL where there are already so many diverse wonders that it's like living in a mash-up of Las Vegas and Heaven.

I have no idea how LL or we residents could work to increase retention among gamers looking for a new game --- or if that's even a specific goal. But whatever demographic I fall into? *I* have been successfully reached --- through some SL clothing designer's (I forget who) ad on Boingboing.net, of all things. And while less lag is devoutly to be wish'd, and more prims possible per sim awould be a welcome improvement, this SL is already sufficient to achieve retention in my case.

FWIW, I am Memory Harker and I have been retained.

Honestly, Chip, this reminds me of people who can't accept an apology, like when Nolan Nash made his. I have already conceded the point, and apologized for it. That should be enough.

Backed off? I am not SUPPOSED to back off. You are supposed to deal with me as I am. And I am as I am due to the things I believe.

I would have eventually made just as big a thing - and DO - over another poster receiving the same treatment, because I noticed that at the very same time as I noticed my friend. But these big cases aren't even necessary to reference. There are little ones, all the time, all over the place.

My observation is that the very people who are worried about "retention" - along with the very people who seem to want what's best for the game - are frequently the same people who will rudely dismiss another poster's comments, in this very thread, for that matter. Each poster/resident is important and worthy of respect. And in these forums, they don't all get it.

That affects player retention.

Now you can agree or disagree with that, but it is my observation. I've retracted the age part of it. You can keep trying to make this about me, or whatever you need to do to deny that this could possibly be occuring, but it is my observation that it is and does, and we lose players due to it.

coco

Coco, do these players we are losing come to you and tell you they are quitting and why?

I am not trying to be snarky here. It's a serious question which arises as a result of your claim.

Yes, Nolan, friends of mine do tell me why they don't like the game, and this attitude in the forums is one of the reasons. Other reasons have been listed, too - arriving at the welcome area and running into a lot of sex, for instance. I personally have never experienced that, and I have tried to tell them that it was unusual to happen that way, but apparently it does happen. In general, "not liking the people" is what I hear most. The second most is "nothing to do" and the third most is "everybody is too spread out, the place is barren."

I don't think we can or even should try to be all things to all people, but at least we can stop running them off by the forums.

coco

I have been here over two years, brought in at least 7 or 8 friends, made friends with countless newbies (as a matter of fact, I hang with mostly newer players), and I have never once had anyone tell me they were quitting over any of the reasons you cited, especially the forums one. In fact, the only one who did quit and tell me about it was my ex, because SL was just too much for her PC to handle. *shrug*.

I am not saying I don't believe you, although I would be willing to bet if we asked other players who have stayed in SL, like yourself and myself (anyone care to address this?), we would see far more responses like mine. This is just a guess though, hopefully more people will see this conversation and supply more feedback so that we can determine if what you are experiencing are sporadic and/or isolated cases.

Nolan, I am ALWAYS interested in keeping players in a game I'm interested in playing. Half the reason I'm in SL is because it is on the upswing, and has a growing population, which gives some purpose to my efforts to create here. (And SL won't be the last of its kind. It's just the one we are all doing NOW.)

As anyone in TSO and they will tell you that I sat on my lot being probably the BEST person a new player could run into. I was always most receptive and careful with new players on the forums as well. There's no sense in playing a game or staying in an environment that is on its way down; new players are the total lifeblood of the whole endeavor. This game, though, is still on its way up, so I'm not worried about it a lot. The question at hand in this thread was, "What about retention?"

You didn't ask me what people who have stayed say about why they are staying. If you had, I would have given you a whole different answer.

coco

P.S. Oh, I have misunderstood you. I see you meant, if we ask other players who have stayed what they heard from players who have left. I have just shared with you what I have heard from other people in the past two years. Hearing from others would be good, too.

so you've changed you ways for this game? when I first met you all you did was hit me with your car.

I wasn't trying to make it about you. Just suggesting that what you perceive can be colored by bias. Often the tone of how people are treated can be set in their first few days here by their own demeanor. If it's not received well (for what may be very valid reasons) it can create a kind of stalemate that persists, with both sides treating the other according to those initial perceptions. Both parties have to be willing to reevaluate their initial assumptions for it to change.

My perceptions are much different than yours are regarding how new users are treated. In most other game related forums I've ever participated in new users are treated incredibly rudely if they ask questions that have already been asked countless times. That really isn't the case here. There are many people who tirelessly and patiently help new users by answering questions and offering suggestion, and the majority of them are people who've been around for a long time. Look how often a new player posts an introduction and is greeted by dozens of welcomes in return. Is that the behavior of a community that's rude to new users? I don't think so. If your experience as a new user was different, chances are good that it had much to do with your own demeanor upon entering the SL world. That's what I'm asking you to consider.

"I wasn't trying to make it about you. Just suggesting that what you perceive can be colored by bias. Often the tone of how people are treated can be set in their first few days here by their own demeanor. If it's not received well (for what may be very valid reasons) it can create a kind of stalemate that persists, with both sides treating the other according to those initial perceptions. Both parties have to be willing to reevaluate their initial assumptions for it to change."

I agree with every word of that.

And I do notice when people are good to a newcomer, which is far more often than not.

coco

P.S. That's my main message to answer your post above - what I wrote above.

But, I will add for the purposes of this general discussion that there is a difference between welcoming a newcomer, and condescendingly explaining why they are all wrong in whatever they are saying, citing the "mantra" to do so, which is really just one view of it all. And my original point was that when new players see what goes on here to some players, they find it a turn-off.

P.S. Did I run over you with a car, Seldon?

Could you expound about this "mantra"?

O.K.

"SL isn't a game. You must stop calling it a game. "

"Stipends or other support for events are a bad idea. People will pay to attend any event worth its salt."

"That person is criticizing [whatever] because that person is uncreative and jealous."

"We don't need anything to do besides scripting, building, and buying and selling land. If scripting and building or land dealing aren't for you, then maybe this isn't the place for you"

"This is the metaverse. If this isn't the metaverse, at least it's the beginning of the metaverse. This isn't a product, and we aren't customers, as much as we are collaborative pioneers."

"There are two kinds of residents: Those who create content, and those who consume the content."

"Open source and no Linden involvement is the Holy Grail."

coco

Actually there is a third type of resident, those who consume other residents. Oh wait, that is World of Warcraft. Sorry.

So how about following my lead and coming up with ideas of what we think we CAN do to retain people?

I do agree that SL can appear 'barren'. I also agree that I believe (but havent experienced it) that there is a TON of fun things to do.. but where to begin?

What would you suggest to a new player are interesting things for them to do which might keep them coming back?

Sure, everyone knows about -ingo's .. what about the other stuff? I've only just heard from a friend about a game called "21 blood" (iirc). Quintzee didn't do it for me as it needs some 'bugfixing'.

Where are areas you would recommend new people check out?

Perhaps this needs it's own thread.
-ingo is easy to find
clothing is easy to find
What else is there to do?

Ahh, I see. I was hoping for your feelings backed up by actual quotes. Not quotes that are paraphrased and/or made up/reinterpreted by you.

Can't have it all I guess.

And, even if some people have relayed the sentiments in your rather sarcastic interpretations above, they are individuals, and as such, it is highly unfair to attribute their thoughts to some sort of pervasive "mantra".

On the "it's not a game" thing - The general feeling I take away from those type of statements is this one: people are not too thrilled when you exhort, sometimes in caps, "it is a game!", and they are trying to express that it's fine if you view it as a game - but do not expect others to adhere to your view, SL is many different things to many different people.

I guess it's all about perception.