New Form of Griefing

sorry Shebang I gotta go with ama on this one ... players shouldnt confront other players it will only cause hostility no matter how its done if they dont remove said object and a LInden then contacts them.... they will know how the Linden found out and only be pissed at the player , so best to just report it and let them deal with it


my opinion naturaly not ment to offend anyone

I don't think we should force Linden Labs to rush into a policy on this. I really don't want to loose the freedom for creative expression, however I want the legal
ramifications of me contributing to the delinquency of a minor looked at as well.


Xavier

#! - I actually do agree with you sorta. An -informal- talk to someone may help. But I don't think it should be part of the formal process, as your first post placed it.

No one should be told that if they find something offensive they -must- first confront the person about it before action can be taken. That is where the strife could come in. Sure you can go try to persuade them from having the offensive material out if you want, but you shouldn't have to before following some method to get authorities to look at something.

And no offense taken here =)

My reasoning comes from two different aspects of my 1st life:

As The Mommy -- the girls tattle on each other. A lot. It gets real old, real fast. For Big stuff, yes, I wanna know, and I wanna know NOW. For the little stuff, geez, TRY to work it out between yourselves and leave me out of it. Three kids is a lot to manage 24 hours a day. The Lindens have a much larger population to manage, and it's just going to get bigger.

As The Chat Admin -- I've been an ircop on one of the Big Three, and head admin of a much smaller (~11 servers at the time; ~3000 users) network. "She said *poop* in my room!" "He won't stop talking to me!" "They banned me from their room!" It just never ends. Nothing burns an admin out faster than having to deal with all the "little stuff" non-stop.

#!

This is exactly how I feel.

I don’t want to loose the freedom of expression we have now either. However, any ruling would be better than the double standard we have now.


That's how I feel.

It was gone before I got on, too. It's sad enough that it can be difficult to find a giant penis in our 1st lives. I must have covered several sq meters in my second life looking for that one too. I feel like a teenager again. (Just kidding, putting a giant penis next to someone just to be offensive sucks)

Hiya guys! I've been hurting from midterms still am... I'll try to be on more... really I will
anyways...



to answer this... me with a 12 gauge.

Hey guys it is a Lighthouse. I just did not have time to finish it have a new shift at work Hence the Platform big light and the huge stain glass turtle. I will finish it soon. I have no need for giant (ya know) it is a light house. I was gonna have a Lobster party and evrtthing. Man I am hurt over this one I spent a bunch of buck on that.

Aww. Thai... I was just funnin ya! I'm just jealous because I was eyeing that corner and you snagged it!

Ok so they are allowing a Minor to go wherever he pleases and that does in NO way effect you me or anyone else but that Minor and the possible ramifications to linden labs ... this is NOT the same thing in any way!

we have sim ratings and have the ability to CHOOSE whether or not we venture into Mature sims or stay away from them if that is what we desire to do , we are NOT forced to go there nor should we be FORCED to see what belongs in a mature sim in a PG sim...

That is Quite different than someone underage goin on there own free will to a mature sim!!

Althou personally I wouldnt want those ramifications over my head as a game maker... no offence Jack , Your a good Kid please dont take it personally

That is probably one of my biggest problems with the way SL is handled.. being (since I forgot to quote) underage individuals entering mature sims.

Now it's all well and good to say that we have a choice to enter or not. That rating the sim as mature is a warning of what to expect, and to adjust your travels to suit.

However..

If a video store has adult movie sections that are screened off, and a child enters in there with the clerks/manager saying "they choose to enter, so it's their problem", that doesnt make the child responsible for his actions - the blame and consequences still fall upon the owner and operators of the video store.

If something is put up that is not suitable for children, it's *still* our responsibility to make sure that children cannot access it. I'm not talking right/wrong. I'm talking law.

Choice is a wonderful thing. However, personal choice (when it comes to a minor) isnt really a defense against prosecution.

In the end Linden Labs is responsible for the consequences of minors entering into areas that contain material that is unsuitable for them - *however* if we dont do our part *as well* that leaves Linden Labs with only a few choices

A) Create seperate logins one that totally restrictss minors from any adult orientated sims
B) Banning adult material of any sort from being allowed within the SL community.

While A is of course the preferred method of dealing with this problem, it is also the most complicated. B would be quicker, would be easier.

If we dont want Linden Labs to have to start making policies based upon these (soon to be a problem once gone live) situations, then *we* as residents need to do more than just look at it as a Linden Labs/minors problem. We need to take our own steps to assure that adult material is accessible only to adults. We need to be responsible for the creations we make, and the environments we build.

And if anyone says to me that I am discriminating against someone because of their age, well all I can say is...
"Darn RIGHT!" I will not be made liable for a minors incursions into my adult-created environment. If that is discrimination, well then sue every bar and smoke shop in the land - cause they do the same thing.

Amen and pass the salt.

QUOTE]If a video store has adult movie sections that are screened off, and a child enters in there with the clerks/manager saying "they choose to enter, so it's their problem", that doesnt make the child responsible for his actions - the blame and consequences still fall upon the owner and operators of the video store. [/QUOTE]

Yes Note you said its to the owner/operator of the store that is then responcible , NOT other customers in this case Beta testers !
But the material MUST be in a secure location out of the reach of the minor ! Not in a PG sim




In saying "our" im then goin to assume your Linden labs?
Otherwise I must Disagree.... see above for reasoning we(the beta testers) dont own this




This is a wonderfull Idea and has been sugested before , the only thing is you still have a matter of enforcing it , how do you show age here unless you have a show of Credit cards and even then not everyone uses them, Drivers Lic. photo copy sent to Linden labs ect... but once you go to that degree of checking and rechecking they would have so many manhours (or woman hours) involved to pre-certify age requirements It would be counter productive......



This is another interesting point, since there are a billion places on the net for porn , if people want it that desperatly they can go there or the local corner store and get a smut book/video ect...

Problem is , when you do that people automaticly feel like your taking away the freedom of expression and become defencive... well those same people (or 90% of them) would be the first to complain if there X Husband/wife or Boyfriend/girlfriend had some pics of them in the nude and made a large billboard and put the texture on it ...
this type of thing WILL happen eventually, or photos from Hustler or (insert favorite magazine here) ......
Wait till the property adjacent to yours houses a strip joint or adult book store , then they will complain lol
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In retrospect we all get the general Idea of the Original post by now, its growing and changing with every post thereafter ...
we all came to this post in refrence to a sculputured (for lack of a better description) Penis and set of balls and loud rock music that seemed to activate with character movement as far as 2 properties away.... it has since went WAY WAY beyond that , so lets not loose site of what the post was for ....

PG Sims are for just that PG works and Items ....

Mature Sims are for your naughty side , keep those items there, and dont force Mature things on the population in general that are not in a mature Sim.... really pretty simple , if you cant obide by the guidelines for the sim your then exposing the entire public to things that they may not want or desire to see, hence in my opinion shouldnt be here....

Since Freedom of Expression is the biggest arguement here to defend these types of action Ill just say this ....

There is NO freedoms here, your living in there world!
Remember I got Banned for 5 days for thinking I could have freedom of speach and call a name (even though they called the first name) I still got the boot!! they did not

The only Freedoms you will be afforded is The ones that Linden Labs afford you, it is there game and they have ALL say in all Matters , we mearly make suggestions and test ...

is this right ? well it dont cost us anything and its costing them plenty so yes it is right,
It belongs to them!!!! and so do the decisions

Two things

1) I agree that we dont own this, that Linden Labs does. That they are ultimately responsible for any problems that may arise from minors viewing or interacting in things that they should not, by law, be exposed to. However, if such a thing does occure, then Linden Labs will be forced to impliment procedures and rules that limit everyone, not just the minors in question. This could be a nice, pleasant implimentation, or it could be a slam down on everyone using their services. *If* in anyway we can help them by doing our own part to monitor a) the things we build, and b) how those things we build are accessed, then we have a better chance of the pleasant rules/procedures happening as opposed to the slam down. After all, if people are running around throwing up nude pics, or suggestive material wherever they can (mature or not), and in plain view for all to see. Can you really see the Lindens sympathising with our desire to be so crass when the heat comes down on them?

- as example of content moderation, just look at Bel's place. entrance is based upon how well she judges a persons age/maturity, and guages them.... foolproof? hardly, yet it's a step in the right direction. There is nothing foolproof right now, but at least it *is* taking that first step.

2) I really shouldnt have posted that first part (lol). I agree that this has spiraled far and away from the original topic. I would suggest that if we want to continue the debate on adult material and how best to control access to it, that we move to another thread and try to reign this one back into line (wishfull thinking, but hey -gotta try)

I have spoken, that is all.

Very well said, Jaxiam.

I think residents need to be concerned about charges such as contributing to the delinquency of a minor, corrupting the morals of a minor, kiddie porn. I'm lost on why some people think they are exempt from criminal charges such as these because they are beta testers, but I have heard that from a number of people in the last week. "It's Linden's problem" "Do whatever you want" "Linden is responsible". I don't get it.

Why would being a beta tester allow you to involve a known minor in simulated sexual activity, or even just allow them to observe it, or allow a known minor to view pornography? I have searched the internet high and low and can find nothing that says beta testers are exempt from criminal charges in regards to inappropriate sexual behavior with children. I have gone over and over the TOS and can find nothing at all that says we are held without liability for criminal charges -- for any reason.

I don't see how being a beta tester is license to molest or corrupt children. If you say, "Come watch this naked av dance." you're in trouble. If your av is dancing around naked, and you see a minor watching, and you don't immediately clothe yourself or take some other action, you're in trouble. I would expect anyone who tried telling the FBI agent who arrests you or the judge that hears your case that it's okay because you're a beta tester is going to be laughed at.

Here from the TOS is what Linden will and won't allow in regards to minors:
6.4 Age. Linden cannot absolutely control whether minors gain access to the Service, and makes no representation that users are not minors. Linden cannot ensure that other players will not provide Content or access to Content that parents or guardians may find inappropriate or that any user may find objectionable. Please keep this in mind. You are prohibited from conducting any activity that may harm minors.


Read that last sentence again. Nowhere in that section, or in the entire TOS, does it say that Linden takes responsibility for your criminal actions in regards to minors. It says the opposite. YOU are responsible. In fact, throughout the entire TOS about all it talks about is what Linden is NOT responsible for. And it covers about everything.

It just doesn't make sense to me. Can anyone provide me with a legal reference on this matter? Or point me to where in the TOS it says that we are not liable for our criminal actions?

Thanks -
Kerstin

Addendum: Just found this in the Rules of Conduct:

As residents of Second Life you have certain responsibilities to yourselves and to each other. You may not, for example, break any applicable real-world laws.

As usual Kerstin, you hit the nail on the head.

Thank you for clearly stating what I muddled about with

quote:If something is put up that is not suitable for children, it's *still* our responsibility to make sure that children cannot access it. I'm not talking right/wrong. I'm talking law.

quote:In saying "our" im then goin to assume your Linden labs?
Otherwise I must Disagree.... see above for reasoning we(the beta testers) dont own this

quote: You are prohibited from conducting any activity that may harm minors.


This really is both a complicated and a quite simple issue. I have similar concerns as Kerstin and Jaxiam.

I am not really worried about buildings shapes or inappropriate items on PG sims because I know I wouldnt do that sort of thing and although its not my preference, if it occurs I am confident Linden will deal with it as appropriate.

If a minor freely wanders and comes in contact with created items in a mature sim it gets a little stickier. Linden has posted a disclaimer "protecting" themselves (I use quotes because I am not a lawyer and I have no idea if it really will protect or not) however what of the users of mature sims? What IF I decide I want an "adult" shop? Who is then liable? Personally I think I would be and not Linden.

Even more complicated are things such as Kerstin mentions like simulated activities. Sure we dont have "parts" but conversations can be quite explict.
Conversations are easily heard by passers by without those conducting the conversations even being aware (tell THAT to a jury!). If a minor was in proximity of such a conversation intentionally or by accident and their parent were to come by and see it on their screen dont you think they'd be upset? Granted some wouldnt care but many would and that opens up a big can of "then what?" and "who's responsible?".

I am not trying to discriminate and the notion that this IS discrimination to me is ridiculious. It is the responsibility of adults to protect children. (Knowingly) contributing to the deliquency of a minor is against the law.

I see the ratings of sims as a false sense of security for the adults. Maybe the disclaimer should be expanded(like that will happen) or we should write our own, plunk an outlands wall around mature sims and post signs all around it.

This IS a community real or simulated and we are the inhabitants. We are not the owners but that does not excuse us from responsibility. I really don't know what the answer is but maybe the Lindens are watching and wondering if we will come up with something to police ourselves.

Hi Folks,

Lots of fascinating stuff here, and many good points.

Just so everyone understands, we are currently classifying various CS issues as "beta" and "non-beta". This means that if the problem is due to a reason that is specifically caused by the way a beta program works, then it is a called a "beta" bug.

For example: Currently the PG/Mature area blocking doesn't work. That is because we haven't implemented it. Once we do, most of the previous problems go away. This problem is specifically due to Second Life being in beta and still being programmed. It is not due to a flaw in our fundamental design philosophy.

Once it is implemented, the problem will pretty much solve itself., minus the griefers who put non-PG stuff on PG sims.

-Peter

We did try to police ourselves. We, the beta testers, implemented as system that alerted everyone in the Outlands mature sims that a minor was present. We then knew we should stop all "adult" activity while said minor was in the Outlands. This system worked. What happened to it you ask?? A Linden deleted it saying we were unfairly discriminating aginst said minor !! Can you believe that ?? WE, the ones trying to protect the minor, are discriminating!!



Yes, we, beta testers, do have parts. If you don't want or don't have the talent, they can be purchased at several locations. In fact, said minor displayed his "parts" to me!! This was before anyone was aware of said minors age, so nothing was thought of it.

One more thing, trying to keep "adult" activity behind closed doors does not work either. As I'm sure you all are aware, we have this neat camera system that allows us to look at things from a distance. All said minor has to do is hover 10 or so meters away, and use this camera system to see anything he wants !!

OK...just one more thing, honest As much as the movie its self was really bad, has anyone seen "Christopher Columbus? This was a PG movie. It showed everything short of the actual sex act. Let me repeat, this was a PG movie!!

OK...now I'm done.


-TK

Personally i think Anyone 18 or older (which is the age you should at least be to use this program) should would be mature enough not to build something like a giant penis. It really makes you wonder how old some of the people testing SL are Actually at least 18 years old. I think SL should Find a way to make sure that people who are chosen for the beta are actually the age they say they are, like maybe attaching a copy of their ID/Liscence, or maybe giving a drivers liscence number and having someone from the LindenLab organization maybe check to see if in fact they are the age they say they are. Im not sure how much trouble this would be to the person responsible for doing so but i think its a damn good idea. IF in fact the person who built the large "twig and 2 berries" was 18 or older, shame on you, you need to learn to handle things with more maturity.


Alpha Electric

lol. ok so it was a light house. Terribly sorry. Now i feel bad that i thought it was a penis too. I still think the whole liscence number check should be checked into though.

Alpha Electric

People if it is bothering you that much. I will take the thing down. However, it is a lighthouse. It has brick walls, a stained glass window, a walkway, and of yeah the BIG SPINNING LIGHT. IT”S A LIGHTHOUSE. I am sorry that I volunteered to take a late shift at work for 2 months (protecting your kids on the Internet by the way) so the work is going a bit slow. I will work as fast as I can. I have seen some stuff on SL that has offended me, and left it alone. I mean I thought we were going to stay out of the whole political arena, and there big as life is the Washington Monument. Boy!! There is a giant phallus symbol for ya. If however, everyone finds my LIGHTHOUSE offensive let me know I will blow the darn thing up.

Thai it's a lighthouse and I always thought it was a lighthouse. Honest to god didn't give it a second thought until these posts. Don't delete it, hun. No reason at all to.

Hugs -
Kerstin

Thai.......................

This post is in no way assosiated with your lighthouse ...
it was aboput exactly what has been said a penis and his 2 friends hanging off of both his sides

Well to be honest as far as the beta Testers being responcible VS Linden labs Disclaimer in the EULA (end users licence agreement)
I still have to say that if it is in a Sim Marked Mature and given to the testers as an area to express adult ideas By Linden labs .....
( thats what it is there for)........... and they are aware of the fact that the rating system does NOT work and havent taken that area away or made it inaccesable to minors...It is NOT the testers responcibility to protect them , that area was set aside for adults !
Im not sure if a naked avatar would get anyone in trouble since it isnt REAL but any vulger conversations or textures imported from magazines that you must be 18 to view surely would , not to mention possible personal photography someone could scan and format and bring in to game

let me put this senario to you is a prime example to explain further....

You walk in a bar and order a beer .
As you start drinking that beer you notice a 15 year old kid at the other end of the Bar doing shooters and sippin a beer...
In enters a police Officer are you going to Jail?
are you getting a fine?

answer NO!!!!!

but the bartender and the owner of that Bar are in deep shit!

here on SL the Lindens are the bartenders and Linden Labs is the owner , they would be the ONLY people that would face charges , not the beta testers! we have no control over the programing of the game and who is and isnt present

Do I want to see this happen ? NOPE
I hope they do something to devide the Mature sims and PG sims that works and use it asap so something of this nature DOESNT take place ...

But in order for that to work we must Partly Police the PG areas ourselves , in doing this I mean ........

Fly/Walk about and when/If you see something that (in your opinion shouldnt be there) If its on Public land then by all means DELETE it , if its on a users land then call a Linden in and Have them Delete it, its our civic duty and a small price to pay