Philip's blog suggests selling developed land

as a low volume land trader, i am completely in favour of all steps LL takes to make the auction system more transparent and any measures (such as the restocking fee, 7 day pick up, and 80% refund) to make the auctions more resistant to manipulation. i have nothing to hide and i have everything to gain.

80% refund is ok after 7 days, but i would prefer that auction land should not be refunded at all. if someone can find a reason to employ refund into thier bidding strategy they will. if someone tries to default, i would encourage banning them and sending a collection agency after them.

i support access to information. i think that is the purpose of the spread sheet philip posts every week. perhaps mature vs pg or snow vs volcano vs old sims land stats could be added. as far as tracking the prices of different kind landscape features, like ocean front, river, canyon or sloped, those are the kind of information where people who follow the market will have the advantage.

with parcels divisible and joinable to custom sizes (part of the benefit of approaching land resellers for service), tracking the value of a specific piece of land will become very cumbersome after the auction. i am in favour of auction results, sortable by sim, date, and sim type, being available to the public.

it is my view that people who are outspoken against land traders and bemoan it as some inherent evil of the system have yet to make a good arguement.

It strikes me as funny that you all want an ethical body to govern the buying/selling of land in SL, but no one seems to care about casinos, which may have shoddy scripts bent on ripping off the public. No one seems to care about governing them, or giving them licensing to be permitted to run their scripts.
Why are we putting the cart before the horse... why don't we regulate some of the out-of-control industries that already exist in SL?
It's also sad to me that Phillip posted "Casinos and nightclubs in SL, for example, are clearly peaks" of evolutionary fitness according to the fitness landscape model he references in his blog. Peak in what sense...that they earn a lot of money? Because a lot of people go there? Porn, gambling, robbery, thievery, the seamier side of life, all these things make a lot of money irl too, but I really didn't think they were encouraged in SL (judging by how strict they are with PG and M, and what kind of porn you keep, where you put it, and what age users are. They even now have separate listings for Mature events now, to keep newbies from seeing them). But reading that blog makes me think that they are encouraged.

This kind of (what I see as) contradictory policy makes me wonder about what direction Second Life is headed. Unless, this talk of testing and regulation are all just words, and a pipe dream, and never meant to really be implemented.

Then you would agree with her own words that she is absent-minded and forgets (!) which sims(s) she has purchased and their due date for pickup. Now blaze - those are business ethics you can stand up, shout to the world and be proud about!

You would also agree on her ethics of... oh hell forget it. What ethics. While she's crying that she didn't know, mmm mmmm when they were due, mmmm mmmm; there's already been a discussion held where she stated that she wasn't going to pick up the land when she only had 5 days remaining on her monthly tier, it wasn't worth it to her.

Kleenex anyone?

Violin, blaze?

Crackers or cheese with that whine?

I didn't think so.

No one here minds if Anshe puchases 20 sims in one week in auction.

But if you're going to play that game, then pay that game as well.

After all... "Who knew? "

We all knew.

By the way, blaze... since you're here on the business end of things in SL and have shown such outstanding business savvy, I have this bridge that's just over some swamp water that would make a killer in the land market.

Only 50K Lindens, sailor. Interested?

No, Bakuzelas. That was simply another thread. Trust me, people quite care about casinos and how many of them don't even pay out.

That's funny Jauani. I agreed with everything you said. I'm not against land trading. Please. That's stupid. I'm against ONE person (oh, I'm sorry, what, three?) controlling the ENTIRE land market through dishonest mechanisms.

Those two are NOT the same thing.

People are in here mashing pointed arguments down to general arguments just to make yet another argument.

Pretty soon you're going to say that anyone who complains about a specific kind of permissions fraud, or something, is "against selling things".

Hell, why not go all the way and say that I'm "against things" ?

Additionally, there is a difference between casinos and land. You don't ever have to set foot in a casino in SL to do anything of note. Land is a commodity that is required for building anything permanent outside of the sandboxes, a major part of the SL experience. Manipulations and fraud involving land have a much higher impact on the community at large, who are all potential land purchasers. Only a small percentage of players bother with gambling in SL, for the very reason you stated. Ripping of any player is not right - the land issue draws more attention because it is a much more important issue collectively than non paying slot machines.

actually i've been quite outspoken on this quite a few times. There is less of an impact though... no one makes people spend money at casino's.. and while i personally reccomend NO ONE in sl go to a casino that they don't *KNOW* the owner of and trust, it doesn't affect new players in a compulsory way... ya go to a casino, ya get burned.. its yer own choice... land profiteers do directly harm new players by making it more and more expensive to buy into land ownership, and they also harm OLDER players by slicing and dicing what WAS a large continuous space into many much smaller spaces that may *NEVER* be able to be re-united again.

It really does complicate things for people tryin to do large, cool, whole area style theme builds. Its taken us 12 months to have the large continuous land space we do now in luskwood.. and i wouldn wish the stressing and frustration it took to get us there on *anyone*

Oh good.
Sorry, my own fault, I don't read the forums enough to have known this, but I have been reading lately due to the latest Town Hall and other developments.

I personally believe the rules need to be reworked to make life more fair. I personally would happily work to make rules so that the innovative, imaginative and hard working are rewarded significantly.

Cory is doing a fantastic job of that. I encourage everyone rather than spending time accusing me of being an alt (an excellent example of everything I've said - thank you for proving me 100% right, Cristiano .. and Lynn, your biting sarcasm is such a worthwhile, positive effort - congratulations), I suggest you follow up on Cory's threads and research Lawrence Lessig (etc) and post your ideas there rather than pointless insults on clearly clever people such as Anshe.

Foolishly attacking people who basically provide a foundation for the success of SL is why SecondLife will fail.

It's basically the weak attacking the strong when it should be the weak supporting the strong who will in turn provide the substrate that will let them stand up straight.

Market arbitrage, which is what Anshe does, is recognized by all economists as extremely important in taming the booms and busts of any economy that create terrible stresses on us all.

She profits from performing this duty and LL has an obvious and very very important philosophy that in order for SL to succeed the service providers must be rewarded for the services they provide.

But, Blaze... you even have the same capitalization and punctuation, and paragraph spacing peculiarities that Anshe does... Really, you should have tried a bit harder?

Market arbitrage occurs BETWEEN markets, not in the same one. If you were buying land -here-, and reselling at, say, There (an impossibility) THAT would be market arbitrage. There's NO ARBITRATION occuring here, Anshe. Just locking others out of the ability to buy at YOUR price in the SAME MARKET.

I remember when I was going to buy a PS2, when they first came out. Some guy with a lot of money pushed infront of everyone in line, waiting to get one, and bought out all of the stock of the store. ($300 ea) He turned around to us, and said, "Here, you can now buy one of these from me, at $600 each."

That's NOT market arbitrage, but it IS what you're doing. It IS riding on a hype driven market, but it is NOT a service in any way. Who on earth would benefit from the previous situation? Sony? Best Buy? The consumer? -- No, just the middleman who -pushed infront of the line-.

And, man, that's one hell of an insult... Calling everyone who doesn't agree with you/Anshe "weak" and suggesting that we NEED you to "stand up straight"...


We've done MIGHTY fine for a -profitable- year here, Anshe, without ANY help from you.

Folks, accusing me (or really anyone) of being an alt only shows that you say things you have no idea of and suggest very ill things of your intelligence. I really really recommend you stop doing it.

Not only are you suggesting facts you have no idea if they are true or false, you are also personalizing a discussing that really should not be about people and but rather should be specifically about the impact of various economic structures on innovation and growth.

Anshe could be Bill Gates for all we care. We don't.

We care about:

1. Does land baroning help facilitate the SL economy?
2. How can we alter the rules such that land baroning can help the SL economy more as clearly people want to do it?
3. etc..

Please stop talking about me or Anshe or anyone. Insulting people, attacking, trolling, or whatever has no place on these forums.

You can ask us to change what we say about you, but it doesn't mean we have to comply.

Your superiority kick is disgusting, whoever you are. The only mistake going on in anyone's head is that you actually think you're NEEDED here.

This IS personal, because folks like you come in, and think you can change SL into a day-trader's platform, and that you have the right to do so just because you have the MEANS to do so.

We don't have to comply to your undergrad biz-degree whims. You think you can control everyone who you see as "weak" (read: less moneyed - OR, PERHAPS, MONEYED; BUT MAYBE WE'RE HERE FOR ANOTHER REASON?). Truly, I don't give one crap about the land trade. I don't need it. I have WAY more than enough land.

The ONLY reason I'm engaging you is because I care about SL, and the people who want to be here for more than a WSJ mock trade-drill.

wow even i'm taken back by how utterly fake that sounds..

that took real effort to be that shameless

1) no it facilitates GREED, and lining ones own pockets at the *EXPENSE* of SL, thats not even in argument here. Raising prices on land isn't a service, its profiteering.

2) i believe the *ACTUAL* question should be how can we alter the system such that there is no 'excuse' for land profiteering, aka how can we better design a system to get land *STRAIGHT* from LL to end users. again, RL has real estate agents cause buying a house is *FREAKING HARD*... in SL theres *no* reason it should be so hard that such intermediary people would ever have a reason for being.

obviously blaze you have *NO* qualms ripping people off, and *hurting* SL and LL to line yer own pockets... the fact that you feel entitled to alter the system to help sate yer own petty greed is simply astounding... its' like proposing a constitutional amendment 'everyone pays me $10'

It still absolutely blows my mind every time these guys think that they're the heroes and salvation of SL because they've blessed it with a faux "free market" as if nobody had any idea how to make a buck until they showed up.

If this were a REAL free market, where you actually had to ENDURE the threats of competition, you armchair tycoons wouldn't last a day. The only reason you continue to thrive is because LL's economic system didn't see it coming.

The only novel thing you folks have brought to the table is a way to profit without actually doing anything. The people here before you just didn't see the place as a crucible, as you do. That's the only difference. You're not a genius, you aren't teaching us the ways of business.

You're just so used to making a buck and patting yourself on the back for it. Actually it's gotten to the point where your hands are below the waist now.

The land trade can be happily ignored by most established users. Yeah. You're making a sick buck off of newbies. Con-gratu-f***ing-lations. Genius sprouts anew.

If you were gone tomorrow, SL would still thrive.

If content creators were gone tomorrow, you'd be buying and trading lumps of green digital dirt that nobody'd want to buy anyways.

You're just predators. Don't try to ennoble that. You can have your money, but don't try to take virtue along with it, cos you've got no claim on it.

a lot of established players approach me about land. but noone approaches me about making them a donkey av.

its cause they know yer a profiteer, not an artist

all things considered, that's pretty ridiculous.

I don't know.. no more ridiculous than yer original statement. I could turn it around and say i've had many people come to me for particle effects, and no one come to me for schemes to rip people off in the welcome area.

yeah... cause i *do* particle effects, i don't rip newbies off in the welcome area... what you said was essentially a meaningless statement that was carefully calculated to try and cast someone else in a bad light without being outright false.

people come to you for what yer known for. If you aren't known for it, people probably won't come to you for it. This being the basic truism that renders what you said, and i quote:

"a lot of established players approach me about land. but noone approaches me about making them a donkey av."

if anything a self-damning statement.

I think what you were attempting to say was something more along the lines of 'what i do makes money, what you do is worthless' its just... well.. ya really didn't get those words out properly

Is that why an empty plot of your for-sale land is on all of the SL advertisements all over the web?

Oh, wait a minute.

i think what i was trying to say is that michi is being pretty presumptious to attack land speculators, particularly everyone's favorite alt, about thier activity when she would have no clue how often land speculators get very specific requests for very specific kinds of property.

i think it's very unfair for players to suggest that them making a donkey out of thier av is any more or less valuable than then another persons chosen in world, linden sanctioned, ToS abiding activity.

aah but this once more simply underscores the defficiencies within the current land sale system. A system that was more able to deal with the needs of these people and not leave them at the mercy of a group of people who by and large are motivated not by any sort of desire to actually help people, but by their own greed would seem to be naturally preferable.

after all if they sincerely desired to act in the benefit of SL at large, would they not simply direct these people to the land that best suited them? rather than attempting to sell them over-priced land from within their own holdings?

These aren't public servants... they're used car salesmen.. and they have no qualms buying at $1000 and selling at 10x that, if they can find a guillable enough mark

eltee, to always return to greed and market manipulation as the main market force, you would have had to have missed all of schwansons posts in regards to the land trade in past months. there are only so many coastal areas, there are only so many waterfalls, there is so much flat land. and land parcels come in varying sizes. many players want very specific land in a very specific amount. this is not something that can be run in some communist utopic fashion: "please take a ticket and wait for beach land to open up comrade" as long as there is an open or black L$ to USD market. players with more $ will push the market to provide them with thier precise needs and other players withe an entrepeneurial and risk taking spirit will step forward to fill that niche.

buyers dictate prices and the RL affluence of players is the real factor in determining land prices, not sellers (supply vs demand). perhaps i can illustrate by dissecting the lovely yet flawed PS2 anecdote (Lumin 2004). if store regulations allowed the first buyer to buy all the ps2's in stock, the remaining shoppers would choose whether they want to pay the 300$ mark up or if they would prefer to check another store, or wait for the next shipment. if a lot of people decide to hold off (demand is not great enough), the first buyers risk would have failed and he would be left holding a very hefty bag. i believe this would be that case because if 600$ was a marketable price for a PS2, it would have been sony's recommended sale price to all the stores.

as per the first paragraph what i'm saying is that a more robust *system* would be able to do many of the things you describe, without taking a cut of the proceeds.

As to the second, im not exactly sure what you're getting at there. You seem to want to say 'let us buy all the land and if we over-extend well we loose, its all fair'

the problem with that is its *NOT* just you who looses. The people who you bid againt at auction also loose, whether they paid too high a price themselves, or got screwed and didn't get any land at all. The people who want a large plot that you or your compatriots cut up to little bits and who then have the arduous task of re-assembling it with buying out increasingly greedy waves of 512/1024sqm landowners also loose.

LL looses because it is having land repeatedly go through auction cycles to some particularly odious 'real estate agents' who then elect to simply defer to the fee rather than loose more. the SL community at large also looses because plots sit fallow, their 'owners' not willing to take the direct loss of selling lower than they bought as a real market would dicate, they instead simply hold onto it, betting against their tier things will change.

Its like drunk driving. It doesn't matter if *you* walk away from the crash... you asked for it... its the family in the minivan you hit that is the tragedy of the whole thing. Aka all the collateral system damage people are wrecking in the name of 'making a buck' for themselves. And you know what its not even the desire to *make* the money that has many of us so annoyed... its the false pretense of righteousness and the BS excuses and lies that go with justifying the practice that really gets to people.

You are making money at the expense of other people, period. Buying all the land you can get your hands on and then shuffling it off for 2x what you paid for it, thats jus profiteering.. the *ONLY* person that benefits from that is you.

'real estate agents' don't *OWN* the houses they sell. If you really want to call yerself that, take a comission from a buyer, and get them in touch with a seller. The minute ya buy out that property, you loose that air of legitimacy. Yer no longer serving a clients best interest, yer serving YOUR best interest, and *EVERYONE* knows it

what kind of robust system will prevent people for valuing hub/mature/waterfront land higher? what system will prevent those with more $$ from getting the land that they want and the person who they got it from to earn a margin?
land is adjusted to what is in highest demand for a price that can be sustained by that demand. this tends to be land sizes that are coincide with the tier fee structure. you fail to grasp that land resellers also join parcels. people who lose in auctions must face the reality that they would have won if they bid higher. you are not describing a problem with the game. you are describing the common sense results of the inequities in life. life isn't fair.

perhaps you missed cory's post where he states that land speculators, which consist of roughly 5% of land sales, have a mean markup in the 10% range.
of course i am serving my own best interests. and for me to realize them, they must coincide with those of others. in good business both parties win. i do not play a real estate agent, i play an investor. i see that some players will pay for convenience and that i can make a small margin by providing it.

you are comparing buying and selling land to drinking and driving. this brilliant arguement has earned you my resignation. you have been preening yourself for debate since childhood and i am simply no match.