Philip's blog suggests selling developed land

Earlier in this thread, there were a lot of points put forward about how this would work best as a player-led enterprise, rather than a Linden-led one. And I do agree with those points; in fact I was composing a post rescinding my previous support of Linden involvement in this.

However. Comments like the one quoted above are the one reason why I believe it will never work as a player-created organization. The organization should not be "self-proclaimed", "imposing ideas on others" or used to "play favorites".

And that has been my sticking point all along in this idea. If Linden-led, it will be scorned by those that feel SL should be self-regulating. If player-led, there's going to be a huge number of people currently in the real estate business that refuse to join.

*shakes head* I cannot see how this is ever going to work.

WAAAAAAAAH!

Will the individual abusers please speak up!

And yes, LL needs to run their auctions more professionally and enact some real controls to prevent these types of abuse of the auction system.

you're the one who is gaming the auction system and abusing your privileges, anshe. linden lab is letting you get away with it, for reasons a lot of people don't understand. you're the reason why discussions like these are happening.

linden lab is losing face by allowing you to operate this way. you don't have the right to demand anything.

real business people would shut you down.


edited to add to the truth

Lordfly and I have taken Philip's idea and built several houses on land that will be sold. They look spectacular and are low prim. I will be posting pictures when I get home tonight. The prices will be very reasonable and include full permissions for the houses. Lordfly is a super talented builder in SL, this is going to be a great opportunity for someone to purchase top quality developed land at super affordable prices.

We realize that some of you are frustrated by an exploit of the auction system and are taking steps to close the loophole.

Effective tomorrow, October 15, any land that is left unclaimed more than 7 days after auction will be transferred to Linden ownership and reauctioned. The original winner will receive a refund of 80% of the original bid.

We plan to shorten the time period for claiming auction land and extend the time period for tiering up for regular land purchases so that they are consistent. It's unclear how quickly we will be able to implement this change. Until then we will strictly enforce the 7 day limit.

Land scanners... Legitimized, rewarded and backed by LL.
Land barons... Legitimized, rewarded and backed by LL.
Strip clubs and casinos... Rewarded and backed by LL.
Gaming of the auction system ... A-OK
Gaming of the Dwell system ... A-OK (By now, EVERYONE knows how to do this.)

Philip... I fully, and entirely, realize that this is all your enterprise. We're just consumers. On some level, I KNOW that.

.. I realize that by signing on to assist, and be part of SL, being that LL is a corporation, this is really a one way venture (unless we're profiting and cashing out in GOM/IGE.) where we are entirely at-risk.

But please be careful. You're changing the goal and meaning of SL. If the grid revolves around nothing but profit, there will be nothing but pure profit motivated builds and items on the grid.

If that is your aim, then I agree, that's NONE OF MY BUSINESS. And your right, in full. But just a note that such a concentration could reduce the subscriber base, not increase it.

Don't "dotcom" SL; This 'economy' of L$ and land could collapse under its own weight tomorrow.

It's up to you, and it's none of my business whatsoever. But you're rewarding people who prey on others, and who game the system.

Legitimate builds and business simply cannot compete. Our avatar business has been booming; but it's a drop in the bucket compared to one person with a handful of land scanners.

On that note -- Is it OK if Luskwood starts gaming the dwell system like everyone else on the top of the dwell boards do? They don't get in trouble for it, so I assume it's an OK thing to do?

People are becoming quickly disillusioned here. I've talked to plenty of them. They try to do something creative and skilled, and get blown off the map by someone who's either got a huge bank account RL, have found holes in the system that they aren't punished for, or are exceptionally fast on the mouse button.

How about rewarding developers for actually developing something?
How about allowing the community to actually vote on areas/builds they like?

How about occasionally rewarding contributors to the grid based on something besides an automated system that can be easily manipulated to the point of being meaningless to those who don't manipulate it?

How about appreciating actual creative content, and encouraging it?


(Sorry for the cynicism, but it's starting to get kind of old. Rewards to the cheaters, silence to those who have been cheated. Why? )

Excellent and thanks. Those of us who have been concerned about the way in which certain players have taken advantage of the system -- making money and shutting legitimate bidders out of the process -- will watch closely.

maxx

edited to delete personal attack

excellent. i think this will do a great service in making the land market more resiliant to manipulation.

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!

And if in default of said land that was won at auction and not claimed -- is there anyway that bidding can also be suspended? I can't understand the rationale of continued bidding on land to add to the unclaimed status just to bid. In other words, if I have "unclaimed" land over 24 or 48-hours old (however long the grace period is to claim the land) -- can the bidding on new plots be suspended? If you have no intention of claiming the plot of land that the individual won in auction -- stop the bid process as well until the unclaimed land is claimed and tiered.

Most individuals here, jump on the auction process of claiming land, and will claim and bid on the second, third or even fourth plot. That step would insure that immediate tiering would occur in order to bid on additional plots of land.

Thank you, Haney for posting this, and to everyone at Linden Lab for taking this matter seriously. Most players are not aware of the scale that this exploit of auctions was occuring. The important part is that it stops happening immediately, and I am glad you are taking serious steps to address that. The land market has been manipulated enough as it is without the added exploitation of a grace period to avoid land tier fees.

Haney,

EXCELLENT! Thank you. Can we add Lynn's idea to this, please? There's no reason, if someone has unclaimed land, that they should be able to continue bidding until that land is claimed.

Ansche,

Just because the status quo allows land barrons to buy and sell anonymously, split land, make prices higher than what they should be does not mean that is how it ought to be, nor does it mean it is how Linden Lab wants it. It just means that is the way it is.

I will repeat this again, my number one suggestion for improving real estate dealings is MAKING THE LAND PURCHASES PUBLIC RECORD.

i'd say there is *UTTERLY* no purpose for 'real estate agents' in sl other than profiteering. They add *NO* 'value' to the land other than literally jackin up the price of it. Its essentially a useless job. They are the guy in office space who took the specs from the customers to the engineers. Except they're ripping off the customers to do it.

what SL needs is a BETTER IN GAME INTERFACE for selling/auctioning land. All these agents claim to do is make the land 'pretty' which is essentially *USELESS* since in game land transfers to *NOT* transfer ownership of objects therefore the land is effectively cleared when its sold anyway. The rest can and should be done by the game interface. People should be able to monitor and participate in auctions from within the game

A new player should be able to see a purple plot, and with the properties or even jus a mouse hover, see the current price, and be able to make an additional bid, all without ever leaving the game. Tada, gettin auction land to new players *SOLVED*

essentially Philip what i'm saying is the *ONLY* reason real estate agentss exist, in RL and in SL, is becuase there are failings in the system. Now RL is probably beyond your control, but you can and should work with the SL land sales system to make real estate 'agents' obsolete. There is nothing that they do that can not be done BETTER by a well designed game system. The fact that some profiteers who claim to be real estate agents have cropped up already simply hilights the deficiencies of how land sales are handled now.

I second Eltee's response in a big way, and would like to hear, Philip, what you have to say to the contrary - if you would?

I'm also waiting for the storm of people to come by and scream "WELL I TERRAFORM IT NICE, ITS HARD WORK!" ... Please. People don't buy terraforming. They dont buy the newbie cabin or Linden trees on your L$10,000 1024-m2 parcel.

People buy land because THEY want to use it for something. The point is building your own house, not buying one that someone bought from someone else and put there.

Okay, there are SOME folks who may want to do this, but the number of folks who pay monthly, who want to buy pre-dressed plots, at premium prices, are VERY few and far between.

This re-enforces even more that the LL folks are sitting and chuckling with a smile at what barons and scanner owners have done. Curious to the administration, Amusing to the folks with stacks of cash RL who want to see how they can manipulate a virtual market over a weekend (and maybe make a buck or two to throw on the mountain), but a real PITA for folks who take SL as a little more than a musing curiosity and actually develop the in-world content for your product.

Philip, I do NOT want this to ruin my rapport with you, responding so strongly. I still believe in this place, with as many dings as I've taken. I've been a bit worried overall about the taste in the lindens' mouths after I've complained so much - but... Really. Sanctioned land manipulators?

Where's the need? Where's the outcry for this, what does it ADD to SL?

Eltee and I have enough land and L$ that we could easily say 'fah, their problem', to this. But I know, (I don't want to speak for Eltee..) that the reason I won't, is that it would be nearly impossible to do what we have done, in today's environment. And it shouldn't be. I don't want this to be the kind of SL that new folks walk into, get overwhelmed, and leave over.

The artificial market factors are too fierce. I remember how it was, and, we still have to deal with land "remarketers", usually at prices so obscene it'd make your head spin.

Land becomes available, right, Philip - you guys put up new sims. It still is ALWAYS "filtered and prepped" through "barons" before it reaches a normal person.

It is still extremely difficult for a new SL user to just go out and buy some nice land. L4L, that's great, but don't you guys see this as a stop gap measure? As soon as they get tired of their L4L plot they're thrown into the stew with all the other folks who don't have the fiscal means (RL) to compete with the giants like Anshe and the HANDFUL of others who DO control most of the land activities in SL


Once again, it's LL's perogative; your perogative, Philip. This is your ship, you're the captain, and really, (no matter what anyone else says), we're just along for the ride. (Bought a ticket, too.) We purchased access to an entertainment product, and no matter how it seems otherwise, and no matter how much even LL would like to advertise above and beyond that reality, --that's what it is.-- So when LL decides to mix it all up, all we can do is decide whether to keep using the product or reject it as a consumer.

I'd like to think of SL as more than that, but I know I'm putting myself at risk if I do.

(I'd also like to hear your thoughts on THAT notion, too, Philip - Do you see it as that? More? CAN it actually be more than that?)

We can make suggestions, and requests, but that's all. I simply have a request that you respond with a couple of points as to why Eltee and I, and Hank, and others are wrong in this case.

If you want SL to take over the world, NORMAL PEOPLE and BEGINNERS Are going to have to be able to buy into a piece of that vision. And then build it into something more. I understand the need for growth and competition. But don't lose sight of your bottom end while looking at the top.

Look at retention of new users and conversions from basic to premium ... (What am I saying, I'm sure you do. That wasn't meant to be an insult, I just wanted to bring both subjects up.) -- How does the 'cost of ownership' for a new SL resident effect that?

Kinda funny how some people here have nothing else to do than to become upset about other people's schedule of claiming auction land and start throwing around ridiculous accusation of exploiting or gaming the system. Oh my...!

Now I can't speak for other land owners. But obviously nobody bothered for months when other people left land unclaimed for 4 weeks and longer, so this sudden interest must be somehow related to me. I am really flattered having so many fans who like watch my land business every day

Well, for 5 months I always picked up my land within 48 hours of auction. It was only recently during snow land flood when I ended up with huge amount of auction land that by far exceeded demand at the time. There already was insane amount of all types of snow land on market for low price and suddenly like 10 people came to me almost all at once who wanted get private island sims. So I decided to help those people migrate and bought their estates from them so they could afford the sim and realize their plans. I also realized that while Linden was flooding market with snow there was less and less good non-snow land for people to buy. Well, I decided to help get all that non-snow land from migrating people on the market first, so people could buy while there was non of that type of land on auctions. This is one reason why you could still buy mature waterfront land for nice price, even after 4 weeks of practically no such land having been sold at auction.

Now what has this led to? If you'd really have taken your time and taken a closer look you'd see that vast majority of my unclaimed land has still been within 7 day limit. Oldest unclaimed land I think is about 10 day or so, maybe at some stage I slipped back 2 week for a short time, dunno. To be frank, this has been so low below my radar I did not really bother to check if now some of my land was bought 6 or 8 or 10 day ago, given there was always unclaimed land by other people in sims that were sold weeks ago. Claiming that this is the big scheme of exploiting auction and accusing me of gaming the system is ridiculous and only show how some people simply can't stand somebody else being successful with land trade. This desperate fishing for opportunity to do peepee on other people's feet is really pathetic. One day it is claiming I screw newbie, next day it is claiming I would use terraforming for land extorsion, next day same people claim I would use land scanners and now evil greedy Anshe become one big and fat and rich cat because she has this wicked master plan to rob Linden Lab of land tier fees

I think some people need reality check badly. So now I tell you how the system can really be gamed and maybe was and still is. At beginning of last month there was a sudden drop in auction prices by about 40% within 4 days. This means that some people, include me, had a lot of yet to claim auction land at higher price than current auction rates, some even not yet billed for. The restocking fee is 10%, the non-claiming fee after weeks and weeks 20%. I still claimed my land, but I noticed other land that went back on auction block. I suggest that instead of become upset about ridiculous question of wether Anshe has claimed her land within 7 day or 10 days you take a look at who did not claim some land AT ALL. Now I don't like accuse people and I am not even sure if people used this on purpose. But if you want do something useful, then find a way to prevent some people from drive up the auctions at one day, and then returning the land if prices dropped after some days.

Kinda like the disease being flattered that we're looking for a cure....

I think the only disease that need cure here is rampant jeleousy.

Anshe, that was just plain insulting. Just because people disagree with the way that you do business doesn't mean that they are swimming in jealousy. I've told you before why what you do with land realty has the appearance of being very opportunist and abusive to many people. This comment reflects your true nature, I believe - unwilling to see the truth, and haughtily arrogant.

Don't say I didn't warn you.

Darn. you found me out! I am indeed totally jealous of you, constantly held up as being a shining example of how NOT to conduct yourself here.

edited to delete personal attack

Pish-Posh!

Jealousy of other barons, by ME, the supreme Baron?!!

LAUGHABLE, I SAY!

I sense fear within the smarmy ranks! Someone doesn't want the light to be shone on them, and it delights my heart like seeing public land released for 1$L a sq/m!! I say, BURN the fire most bright! Show the cracks and crevices where these despicable barons of falsehood hide!

If they have nothing to fear about their practices, they will rejoice in the light!!

However, if they do have deep and dark secrets, that must be withheld from the world, it will soon be revealed!!

HUZZAH TO OPEN TRANSACTIONS! HUZZAH TO EXPOSING THE CHEATS AND SCALIWAGS!!

*chortles while reading the latest gossip-rag, seeing who will be exposed next!!*

Several times I spoke to Lindens about people not claiming land within the posted number of days, and even commenting in the forums and IRC about it. The Lindens didn't care about it, and sumarily ignored what I was saying. Just because people are now getting wise to this "trick" or oversight by the Lindens, doesn't mean it's all about you. What ego!

Anshe, you were found out, complaints were made, and you lost -- significantly, and in public.

You have a choice. You can continue to thump your chest(s) and try to rationalize your conduct with urination stories. Or you can "be silent", acknowledge what has happened, and go about your business of stealing nuts from the cheeks of virtual squirrels.

Either way, your tactics -- and any others who operate as you do -- are under scrutiny. No one who won this round, Anshe, is going away soon.

---------------------------------------

And, um, "Land Baron"?

What's with the cheesy, breathless, Victorian, Fin de Siecle news-pulp style of writing? Amusing for a couple of posts, but now aged like cheap wine from a Battersea tavern. Try some other styles. Perhaps early 18th century American New England congregationalist rhetoric, a la Jonathan Edwards? "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" was always one of my favorites.



edited to delete personal attack

here here eltee! I totally agree that a better, well thought out system INSIDE of the game will almost completely remove the need for "real estate agents" (as Land Barons want to be called, but is not totally the same thing).

The Land Barons want to be both, which is a huge conflict of interest. They are simply Land Barons with a Real Estate sticker on their foreheads. They don't match people to land they truly want or need, they only are interested in moving land for profit.

I don't care whether we call them land barons or real estate agents -- just as I don't care whether medical professionals are called doctors or physicians.

A good, integrated system both inworld and outside will go a long way toward eliminating the issues that have recently come to the fore. And so will a public and statistical record on anyone who sells land -- including such factors as location and amount of land bought and sold, averaged buy and sell prices, failure to pick up land won at an auction in an timely manner, warnings issued for abuse of the system, and other information that can help purchasers be informed.