Philip's blog suggests selling developed land

Well, part of the reason I'm being so loud about it is that I hope he'll come back and clarify.

I don't see what the harm in that would be. But it seems that when the issues get tough, the Lindens get quiet.

I think he was, the drip on my sarcasm meter was making a terrific noise.

I was about to diaper the irony.

The idea of ownership, to me, implies that the "owned" object (or land) has value. If we are not allowed to resell land, it has no value. Land prices have fallen considerably in the past month, yet I still hear the same complaints on these forums. Seems to me the people that are complaining aren't doing so because of the actual prices, but because they realize another player is making a profit.

As far as people scamming other players, it will happen. It is dispicable. But, if people are going to enter a virtual world, and allow themselves to be scammed, it's their fault. I am not talking about the accidental release of land, I am talking about accepting a stranger's offer to buy their 512 for $512. Thats just stupidity/naivety. They learn a lesson the hard way. People realize they are dealing w/ real people not NPC's. Guess what? Real people can suck. The best way to limit scams is educating the new players.

People seem to think that the fact that other people are making money that that limits THEIR creativity. Thats just crap. Build whatever you want. How are LL's policies affecting your ability to create? How is LL discouraging content creation? I am missing something.

Schwanson, you're missing the point, in lieu of an opportunity to allude to W's "Ownership Society" perhaps.

Nobody has a problem with people making a profit. That's ludicrous. If that were the case, you'd see people up in arms about clothing sellers.

What makes people angry, is when people game the system, find a loophole, and profit unfairly at others' expenses.

The issues at hand, at large, were - taking advantage of new users, monopolization of available land, holding land hostage in the auction system, cheating the auction system, land scanners, and, at least I believe, creating an artificial market that is based on hype and not supply and demand.

Point me to one other thread, Schwanson, where people have complained about folks making profit in a way that isn't underhanded. The land trade has certain qualities to it because it's tied to how "enabled" you are in world. Land enables you to build, Land enables you to make a profit.

A small cabal of people control the land. These are the people who know the holes in LL's interface. Or they simply have so much money out of game, that they can purchase all of the land that LL puts up for auction.


LL is discouraging content creation, Schwanson, by paying no regard whatsoever to the fact that content creators get ripped off left and right. (Response in world : oh well, you knew it would happen.) -- People who build scanner networks or screw with the auction system, however, get lauded.

Not to mention, as Jack said, the profit in content creation is pennies on the dollar to a single ill-begotten land transaction.

But, I don't expect to convince anyone who agrees with the "Profit, by ANY MEANS, is in itself, righteous" crowd.

LL backs land traders more than they do content creators, de facto. Philip endorsing the practice, makes it de jure.

I don't want to talk about controls the ability to "buy whatever LL puts out" - my 'right wing friends' would steamroll me over that. But we're seeing RL status and power equate directly to SL status and power.

I didn't think that was supposed to be the case with SL. But I suppose it is.

Because I would not want every other land trader know my prices and my customers. Knowing market is major part of my competitive edge, as is my customer base from whom I buy and to whom I sell. This would be like forcing a programmer to sell all scripts with viewable source code.

Having endless deep pockets RL, Anshe, is your ONLY edge in SL. You have no other. Don't fool yourself.

Don't mistake wealth for virtue, self worth, skill or insight. Contrary to popular belief these days, they aren't one in the same.

Hypothetical:

G. wants to buy a sim. And not necessarily to carve it up and sell it, but to use it to create. Perhaps share it with others for the same purpose.

G. is willing to bid a fair if high price for it. Around the going rate for sims, even among land barons. He's willing to play the system fairly, and if he loses, he will accept that.

Land Baron A., however, sets her ceiling impossibly high. She outbids everyone, not with the intent of buying the property, but of keeping it off the market for weeks, until she can pay down her credit card with profit from other parcels that she has obtained in the same manner. She will do this two and three times per parcel, if necessary, effectively holding a range of parcels in limbo that can total over two sims.

G. has no chance and no recourse against A., because company L. is not enforcing the rules properly, and has not identified stuctural weaknesses in the system that are exploited. And no one quite knows why, because L. is not forthcoming.

Not knowing the why's and wherefore's creates a climate of rumor, innuendo, and mistrust. Coupling this exploit with other existing exploits, or exploits-to-come, magnifies eroding conditions.

Creativity dies. Content dies. Profit for honest land barons and/or real estate agents die. The currency metric shows distortion. Long term viability of the virtual world product dies. Company profit dies.

See?

You mean, if your customers knew that there was a record of them transacting with you, they wouldn't do those transactions any more. They'd be ashamed of the world knowing who they buy from and sell land to.

Anshe, if you feel that this would harm your "competitive edge", how the %^*& do you think RL people do it? We're just suggesting that SL mirrors RL more closely in order to avoid scams and bad deals due to ignorance.

Sounds to me like you'd hate to see a more level playing field.

[Disclaimer - yes, I have bought land from the poster quoted. She had two lots for sale adjacent to my home. They were priced below market. She was #4 in a line of land barons who had owned those parcels since auction, with the price coming down each time they changed hands. They finally got to a point where I felt I could afford them, and they are now an event area where I will be holding Land Ownership classes from next week onwards.]

Actually the script analogy is a false comparison, and shows again the delusions of grandeur you have about your role as a seller of land. Your land prices are not a secret, and anyone is able to buy and sell land. I cannot look at an object that is scripted and reproduce exactly how it is scripted without seeing the source. I can sure as hell right click on a piece of land I own and mark it for sale at whatever price I choose. There is nothing special or clever about that, Anshe.

Your jealousy argument also does not hold true, and is a rather narcissitic comment, which is not surprising. I have the financial resources to buy land on the same scale you do and profit from it - instead I invest money in SL instead of taking wealth out of it. I don't try to avoid paying land tier fees on land by taking advantage of Linden Lab's laxness in enforcing their own rules. I am glad that the grace period is going to be enforced, and ultimately shortened. If you are going to sell land, then you need to incur the cost of doing business fairly - not do the SL equivalent of tax evasion.

Did you ever ask yourself why people stand up for Lisse and Schwanson all the time, when they are in the same business as you are, but there is no one here voicing their support for you? It all comes down to ethics and integrity, which they both have in abundance. Your reputation is quite the opposite at your own doing, which I always find sad, since I happen to personally like you and think you could do so much for SL instead of just detracting from it for your own gratification.

You're conflating copyright and patent regulations with sales ethics and regulation. In the real world, if there's a technical function that contributes to your edge, then you are within your rights to keep it confidential. But you're speaking of a virtual resource the manufacture of which is completely outside of your control -- you are the end-user, and have no such rights.

The consumer, on the other hand, by real world law, has the right to access information about your sales practises, should you decide to sell the commodity you obtained for profit.

Michi, both are fun, but if I accidentally set my land for sale for 0$, I can get a Linden to help me fix the error. If I accidentally give my script to someone who re-sells it, there is nothing I can do.


Lynn, I don't consider myself living a SL of "scam". You can go to auction and get cheap land. Check the median land price, it's cheap. Some people if given the choice of two same sized parcels, will opt for the more expensive one. I can't explain it, but they are out there, and I love them. A toe job sounds fun because I could use CTRL-F while I do it.

We are actually happy that land prices are/were dropping.

Until we saw a scam in the market, holding back land, letting prices raise back up, lack of paying appropriate fees, bidding on land while not claiming other land because... Well, you can read the words yourself with the self-admitting scam against LL.

Case in fact. After Vail was claimed after waiting 10 days, 1/2 of it was sold immediately.

Case in fact. Another user had to wait 10 days after auction to gather another parcel of land in another sim.

Two completely and documented cases of players having to wait to get land to own, to build and to create until the winner of the auction decided that the market time was right to claim the land and put it out for sale. Two or more different players who had to wait to get their land. Two or more different players who tiered up immediately (24-hours) after said sale, while the seller was able to manipulate and not pay a higher tier fee for well over 10 days.

No one is bemoaning profits made from playing the game fairly -- deep pockets or not.

What was exposed was the reduction of land in the marketplace, driving prices up; what was exposed was the nontiering of land tier fees to the tune of $600 or more, while other real estate individuals paid their tier fees and had their profits lowered; what was exposed was a person who by their own definition "knows the market" and because of huge amounts of land ownership can effectively raise and lower the price of land, deciding when the market is "good" for profit and when it's bad.

LL has posted on Terra Nova in the past about internet scams and game scams that have been well known; yet in their own creation have lacked controls to stop it from happening here. Economic data on land sales and resales is flawed from letting this happen.

But it's simply wrong to allow someone who acknowledges in their own words and posts on this forum that they did not claim land, withheld putting the land out for sale, and continued bidding on parcel after parcel after parcel after parcel... Maybe we should have waited until it was six sims or seven sims of unclaimed land before speaking up.

In fact, I think the only way to stop this practice is to call for a moratium of bidding on the auctions. Just imagine if we all stopped bidding for a month or two, three or four. Would there then be enough land for the realtors to sell then?

Question is, will anyone be left to purchase that land?

I may not be Schwanson, but I do remember some time ago there was a BIG stink that lasted months on end about the fact that a company bought the first island sim. It was "the commercialization and death of SL".

Seems that turned out quite alright, no?

Everything that is being argued about here effectively boils down to the fact that the SL world is inherently Libertarian, where pretty much anything is legal as long as you don't violate others' rights. In a Libertarian society there will always be people who "game the system", and the "market" is king wherever money is concerned. It's inevitable.

There are drawbacks to this type of society, such as what we read people arguing about time and time again on these very forums. What many people seem unable to comprehend is the fact that regulation of people's activities ultimately stifles innovation, regardless of how benign said regulation may seem. Ergo, the current environment of SL is the ultimate avenue for creativity and innovation.

You just have to take the bad with the good. There is no such thing as a utopian society. As Agent Smith said in The Matrix, humans as a whole seem largely unable to survive in or maintain a utopia.

There may sometimes be a fine line between "gaming the system" and violating the rules. Bidding on land, winning, and then not accepting the land is a violation of the rules. It's not being sly in your marketing practices, or betting on a good deal. It's fraud, pure and simple.

Logging in your alts to "game the system", to increase your dwell? Sitting at the welcome area, spamming new users with group invites? Spamming people via IM to get them to come to your event? "Gaming the system". Putting donation boxes on other people's land. Sniping people's land when they mistakingly release their land because of some poorly thought out UI? Wow, what a game.

These things are not free market. Some are outright fraud. Some are just people figuring out something the Lindens didn't lock down tight enough. All of them violate the rules in some way or fashion, but people aren't prosecuted for it.

So, in your world, if you don't get caught, then it's okay? If it's not something you get thrown in jail for, it's not wrong at all? Wow.

That's not libertarianism, that's anarchy. Or at best, the Wild West with sporadic law enforcement.

OK - Gaming of the auction system in regards to the 7 day holding period is just wrong. Defaulting on a parcel you have won should also be heavily penalized by LL. LL saw the logic in that and has promised to change that ASAP.

IMHO - Reselling land is a legitimate business in SL. Prices are dictated by the buyers. The speculators take a big risk in purchasing land in the hopes they can resell it at a profit.

However much people dislike it, the fact the the SL economy is directly tied to the RL economy will create inequities. People who decide to dump a large sum of RL money into SL should be seen as foreign investors. If we do not agree with their tactics, do not buy their products. What is a large sum to some, is a pittance to others.

As far as profitabilty of a land trader versus a scriptor, well thats also dictated by the buyers. The scriptor puts alot of time into a product, then sells it. The scriptor's time is his capital. Nice part about being the scriptor is once the product is complete, there is no COGS.(cost of goods sold) I suspect as scripts get better, people will have the ability to charge more for them. Land traders have the opportunity to make alot more per individual sale, but have a tremendous COGS. If LL makes the permissions so that scripting is not profitable, thats not the land traders fault.

Schwanson, I know and understand the need for land realtors in SL, those who are willing to pay the high tier fees to hold land and make a profit from it. In fact, I endorse it, and always will. We need those realtors to be able to pay users quickly for a piece of land if they need to leave the game for personal reasons and be able to recoup at least, if not more (hopefully) than the original price of land.

And yes, Schwanson, you are the devil in sheep's clothing who keeps pulling the wool over the eyes of unsuspecting buyers. In fact, last thing I heard is that your marketing campaign was "A Sheep In Every..."

Except that time and again, overwhelmingly-documented, in many different societies, at many different times in history, this has proven not to be true. Rather the opposite, in fact -- destructive competition and resource-sapping redundancy in an unregulated system proves to be as or more stifling to creativity than even bad regulations.

It's a canard, a "common wisdom" that has little basis in fact, and it's being repeated far too often in these forums.

Strike the necessary balance, instead -- sound regulations, soundly enforced, that stop the kind of "innovation" that destroys others' chances to innovate.

I fully agree with you that the fraud elements should be dealt with appropriately. In fact in my previous post I said "as long as you don't violate other's rights". Our rights as citizens of SL are fully laid out in the TOS.

I was referring to the fact that people can charge a lot for land if someone is willing to pay, even if it's because they bought all available land to corner the market. Getting someone to pay a lot of money for a piece of land is not violating their rights, regardless of how naive they may be about land value.

As far as gaming the dwell system goes, I don't personally think dwell should exist. However, I do not see anything in the TOS specifically mentioning multiple concurrent logins, so I do not believe that is considered to be wrong by our governing authority (LL).

Note: not being personal Apotheus, hugs. Just firing at the issue, not the person

No no you got it backward again! It is "In Every Sheep".

I generally agree with everything Anshe says.

And she (he?) is completely right in that 90% of the personal attacks are just sad cases of envy.

What upsets me even more is that she takes the time to communicate (unlike the wiser among us) and is rewarded by insulting, angry, thoughtless responses by forum trolls. (Which is why the Linden du Jour needs to edit and delete the personal attacks).

Very very discouraging when you are attempting to engage in a thoughtful and honest debate.

The so called 'vocal moral minority' here is going to destroy SecondLife, not the investment of time and capital of one Anshe Chung.


However! I believe that making all transactions public could possibly be a good idea.

This is what they have currently done on eBay.

However, SL should do what ebay has done and (mostly) disable the ability to do competitive analysis. I should not be able to view a list of all the transactions that Anshe has done and figure out how she is making her money.

I think being able to look at land and see all the purchase prices paid for that price would be a good thing. This is what you can do in RL and the transparency that it would provide in SL would go a long way to keeping everyone honest.

I would simply ask what there is to be jealous of? Nothing there to be jealous of, I dislike land speculating for the simple reasons that its done to live off the backs of others, especially new players. That's something to be jealous of? Hardly

Heh, no Blaze. I make a LOT of money in SL. I really could care less if I made more.

I don't like what she's doing. It's amazing that people really believe that everyone only has selfish motivations.

The land trade doesn't effect me. I have enough.

I've made enough L$ in the last two weeks to cash out and buy me a new computer. This isn't about the money. It's about the morals.

I still think what Anshe is doing is wrong. Not because it hurts me, or because I want to be her. (I couldn't go to sleep at night.).

It's market manipulation. When capital runs like water, investing some capital isn't that much of a big deal, Blaze. Using that capital as leverage and to close out the entirety of the market, is. That's why antitrust laws exist, and that ain't communist.

It's because it's wrong. But selfish people tend to believe that everyone else is selfish, too, so, there you have it.

There are folks that don't understand that, Toy. As Blaze said, we're the "moral minority", and how true it is, that those who are immoral, are the majority.

Why you'd want to be part of the immoral majority, I don't know. Oh, I guess it's profitable. I dunno. Money just doesn't excite me enough for me to you know, hack and slash and steal to get a little more of it.

I've got a job, I've got a successful SL business... and I'm not hurting anyone, to boot. I'm fine with that. Not jealous of anything.

There you go Anshe, I was wrong. It took an alt account of an equally disliked player to rally the support for you.