nudge, nudge, wink, wink

No. I was describing your sycophantic behavior and your tendency to praise everything that Prokofy does or says, regardless of content. I never atrributed those words to you. Do you understand descriptors?

Great! Now we're getting somewhere! So then you should be TWICE as angry with prokofy as you are with me!

What does this mean? I call her on her bias which she does a horrible job of hiding, and, I don't care if she is patient with me or not.

I didn't. I was speaking to Margaret. But your mentor sure does. All the damned time. You know the "20-something techie wiki" drivel. Quite telling that you're able to overlook his non-stop ageist spouting, but get all over me for ONE comment which wasn't even directed to you. You must suffer from Prokofy's "everything is about me disease" too.

Yeah, right. I read the forums quite often. Not that it matters. Apparently you think time-in-grade gives you a louder, more important voice, I don't. Have fun wallowing in self pity with your mentor. I am sure he left you some water. Maybe it's even still warm.

coco[/QUOTE]

Aw shaddap, Kismet. You aren't even worth arguing with.

Except one thing, what does "time in grade" mean?

coco

Kind of strange that you are then isn't it?

It means having spent more time at something, in this case it alludes to your comment about reading vs. spouting off.

Again, you turn a blind eye to Prokofy's incessant attacks impuning people's characters and behaviors, yet any time someone dares to point that out, you resort to this sort of garbage.

I won't "shaddap" and I won't "go suck an egg", although you and your gang like to lay them like little turds all over the forums. You don't like what I have to say? Use ignore.

It's amazing that you are critiquing my behavior whilst making juvenile statements like those quoted above.

NAAAAAHHHHHHH.

Yep, I agree, it's juvenile of me to do that, Kismet.

I just run out of the energy for less juvenile ways to combat stuff like "followed your mentor into this game" and lose patience with the whole thing. It's just not worth arguing with you about it.

I guess what it means is I've succeeded - after GREAT effort - in convincing people that I'm not someone else's alt. (Thanks, Ingrid, for backing me up on that!) So this "mentor" business is just the new version of that accusation. And someone who keeps saying that just isn't worth arguing with. Not to mention the other baseless insults your comments to me contain. Like sychophantic. And other uncalled for remarks.

As to the "time in grade" thing, I meant if you read the forums enough to be able to make an educated comment on me, then you would know that this "mentor" business is way off base.

So I say - ptui on you!

coco

You know, Prok finally refused to join in the dog-pile, and immediatly both sides begin evicerating each other ABOUT him.

I know military-level brainwashing that doesn't work this well!

Prok. I salute you. You were the ONLY winner in this little drama.

Have you read the Land & Economy forum today?

Let me boil this down for you. You like to stick your neck out when people take exception to the bile that Prokofy spews. Yet you don't check him for it, instead you check those targetted by Prokofy. Does that make sense? Not to me it doesn't.

It's obvious that you defend him based upon your friendship and admiration for him. SO obvious. I don't believe in giving free passes to my friends when they mistreat others. As a matter of fact, I call them out for it or I stay out of it, usually the former though. I would NEVER dream of defending them. This has lost me some friends in my lifetime, but, I would ask; were they really worth having in the first place if they are incapable of listening to a concerned friend?

Personally, I never thought you were Prokofy's alt, more like a follower, dazzled by his "personality". It's amazing that you are able to shrug off all of the juvenile, paranoid, and selfish ranting of your friend, yet get your knickers in a knot when he is called for it. Then we get to hear you, blaze, and some others make excuses for him, tell us how we are the bad guys, and that we just don't understand Prokofy. We understand Coco, all too well.

You can virtually spit on me all you like, it's par for the course at this point.

OK, Kismet, I will respond to you seriously and at length. I will get out of the neener-neener mode and put out some effort here, as I think you really would like to know, in good faith.

But first, haha, Foolish Frost is right!

OK, let me try to explain. Using numbers, of course. (They help me think.)

1. Here's what I'm all about. Individuals - ANY individual - you, me, whotever, can make as much of an ass as we want of ourselves on the forum. We can be popular, unpopular, it doesn't matter. We can be wrong about stuff, right about other stuff, or have crabby personalities or charming personalities or whatever.

But WHENEVER a group of people gangs up on another person pitilessly, RELENTELESSLY, starting whole new discussions for the express purpose of piling on that individual again, I can't stand it. If the person were YOU I couldn't stand it. It doesn't matter to me what quirks the individual in question has, how wrong he is, how unpleasant he may be to some, whether or not he dresses like a nerd, or even if he's the most disgusting, unpopular kid in the class. All of this could be true, about ANYONE - and when people start piling on that person, I'm gonna yell at them about it.

It's just that simple. I'm sure there is someone who could explain this better than I can. Mob mentality, group shunning, all those terms like that, come close to describing it, and I will holler about it every time, no matter WHO is the victim of the witch hunt.

It has nothing to do with what he, Prok, says or does. That's a separate issue. It has everything to do with what people who should know better, and usually do better, say and do when they engage in lynch mob behavior.

I'm just that way and I always will be. If you ever find yourself beat upon mercilessly by a mob, you can be sure I will holler about that, too. Till the day I die.

2. Yes, I do shrug off what my friend says. I try to shrug off a lot of stuff that isn't, in my opinion, worth responding to. I do that with ALL my friends. Besides, me railing against Prok wouldn't do a single thing to change Prok. If I want to change him about anything, my best bet is a gentler approach.

But when people group together to pillory another player - THAT should never happen. If you want to individually respond to his invective with your invective, that I never interfere in. It's the mob thing I have been so vocal about recently.

Then, too, lots of what people on these boards consider "defending" is just the mere fact that I agree with him on something! You know, I get to do that. It doesn't mean I'm an alt, or some kind of dazzled proselytyte (sp?).

And when I say he is, at base, a well-meaning and sweet person, I'm telling you what he is from my (greater) knowledge of him. I say that because I regard it as a truth. I try not to say it very OFTEN, however, because I kind of think being "sweet" maybe isn't quite a part of the image he would prefer to project, lol.

Do I think he's a genius? Yes. Do I think he is sometimes his own worst enemy? Yes. Do I think he is wrong about a lot of things? Yes. Do I think his approach could use some polishing? Yes. Do I like him just a whole bunch? Yes. Do I think anything he says ever deserves mob action? No.

3. If you want some further truths from me, here's one I was going to mention in an appropriate thread: I disagree entirely with his practice of neg rating people in the game for (a) what they say on the boards, or (b) their holding to a philosophy he thinks is detrimental. I've been thinking about that, and was planning to make that point at some time, both on the boards and to Prok in person, so here's my chance.

4. I don't give my friends any free passes. They always know what I think about things. I'm just more gentle about it, maybe, than you are. Cause nobody's perfect. I will not be so gentle, though, when I see otherwise good people and good players losing their heads in mob mentality, and behaving atrociously as a result.

5. I am not, never have been, and never will be, a dazzled follower of anybody. It is absurd you should think so. It is absurd you should consider Prok my mentor. He's too busy to mentor anybody! And I don't need a mentor. Never did, at anything. I have my own mind, and I have disagreed with him on the forums as much as I have agreed with him. All I have EVER done with Prok is listen to him, try to understand him, and then decide whether or not I agree with him. He knows that. I do that because he is well worth listening to. But I listen to others with the opposing viewpoints as well, and then make up my own mind.

You confuse a citizen standing up against the villification and victimization of an individual by a crowd acting as a mob with someone "defending" the object of the mob. Probably because I said - before the mob stuff started - that I liked Prok and considered him a friend, etc. And because I AM his friend, I tend to be more vocal about it than I would if the same thing were happening to someone I don't know, that is true. But it is the mob stuff that bothered me more than that it happened to be a friend of the victim. And I hate to see it continue, regardless of who it's against.

6. When I think Prok has gotten something wrong about me on the forums, you may have noticed I get very lathered about that and yell about it, too! Until we arrive at some sort of understanding about the misconception. That ain't hardly the behavior of a dazzled mentee!

Everyone has that same right, and I expect everyone to exercise that right. I do not, however, approve of any sort of lynch mob group mentality - any sort of piling on - and it makes those who partake of it look far worse than the object of their lynching could EVER look. Period. I have always been against that and I always will be. Regardless of who it's against.

7. I hope to always be able to count Prok as a friend, regardless of what I say here or anywhere. The reason is simple. I like him, I enjoy him, and he enriches my life. You know, that's what a friend IS. You can have your friends, too, for the same reasons, whether or not I personally like or approve of them.

8. I'm sorry about the ptui. I didn't really mean it as a "spit."

coco

Well, no. I was here, watching this pile of crud get piled higher...

I disagree that it is a mob mentality. I think it's just Prokofy being ultra abrasive, and denouncing almost anything he didn't write, think or make, and that bothers people on an individual basis. Then because he attacks so widely, and he therefore receives a wide response, one faction, Prokofy's friends usually, label it as mob mentality, all the while conveniently overlooking what got us to that point in the first place.

You filled that long post above with all kinds of negative labels for those who won't just sit idly by while Prokofy hurls insults at people about their age, their political leanings, their occupations and on and on. I don't see it that way at all. What happens when a guy in stands on a corner and throws rocks at people? Eventually some of them will pick up a rock and throw it back. You can lable it whatever fits your need, but it's really basic human nature. Would that it wasn't but it is. The longer this goes on, the more it appears to be a "mob" when in effect its really just a slowly building snowball of the original thrower's creation. He is not a victim of anything except his own social disposition.

Example. I move into a new neighborhood, I start making all kinds of sweeping, hostile accusations against the folks that live there already. I carry on with this for months. Some of them feel insulted on a personal, individual basis, and push back. This doesn't prove that they all got together in John & Jane Doe's basement and planned an mass attack. Not at all. It just proves that I have angered various people on various levels, and now they want to address me.

As far as the shunning thing goes. It was 48 hours and only a few said they would abide by it anyway. It appears that most of those folks who did say they would abide the shunning are now speaking to prokofy again, business as usual. How long are you folks gonna milk that shunning thing out?

Because that shunning thing was BAD. It was the worst thing I have ever seen in any forums. It was traumatic, and I hope it never happens again.

Well - I guess I can sort of see your point of view regarding whether or not it is mob mentality and whether or not it is justified. But there aren't any rocks here.

And I still disagree. I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one, but at least I hope you know where I'm coming from now.

coco

I agree. The shunning thing was terrible, and threatened to set a very bad precedent. A number of people who have taken on Prokofy spoke publicly against it, including myself. If you're arguing that inappropriate behavior has been displayed by both Prokofy and those who chafe against his overblown and often empty rhetoric, then I completely agree with you. If you're arguing that many people sometimes, and some people all the time, have descended to Prokofy's level of argumentation, then I agree with you there, too.

But if you are arguing that Prokofy is a victim here, then I'll remind you that this is a person who publicly stated his intention to stalk other people across the forums and issue them constant "corrections", whether their comments had anything to do with him or his issues, or not. This is a person who, with malice, deliberately distorted other people's positions and comments, confabulated epithets with arguments, and perniciously pounded people with mishandled rhetoric in gargantuan proportions. This person carefully and deliberately skirted the boundaries of acceptable behavior in these forums, and invited others to fall over that boundary. This person does not enjoy provoking debate, he enjoys causing problems. There is a difference and it's significant.

Shunning is a practice that should not be used in SL, except as a matter of individual choice. Better to call, say, a two-week forum moratorium on prokofyisms - attacks on Prokofy, attacks by Prokofy, defense of Prokofy, defense of those who question Prokofy, etc.

I wonder who would promise to adhere to such a forum moratorium. I wonder who could adhere to such a promise.

I would try.

Oof. I hear this, lemme tell ya. But you forgot to mention "boldly lie".

I also love how new posts in Hamlet's blog or SLHerald that feature ME come complete with the usual 4000 word rant about me in the feedback section (sadly, the blogs DON'T have an ignore feature)

Seth, I agree with everything (and have said the same thing, many many times).

However - he's not the only one.

There are many in these forums who commit the same crimes, they just do it in somewhat subtler ways and worse, they do it in a way that encourages the formation of lynch mobs. They hide behind popular opinion and they get away with their snide remarks and deragatory language because people generally agree with their opinions.

My suggestion and solution to all of this is simple - censor Prok when he acts like a jerk, but just make sure you're censoring all of the other f*cking jerks around here as well.

Is this the "tu toque fallacy" that you're fond of blaze?

Well, I think I have explained my position enough.

coco

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/filibuster.htm

?

That's hilarious. ::eats tears::

Sigh, poor P.

Coco, at some point everyone needs to be accountable for their behaviour. It's childish to think that one can behave badly and there won't be repercussions. That's just life.

I agree with that totally, Ingrid.

I was never talking about Prok's behavior, though.

It's also childish to think that one can engage in mob behavior and not get called on it, and that's life, too.

coco

Well 2 wrongs don't make a right. BUT one did directly cause the other to happen. Don't lose sight of that.

I have argued with Prok in the past, and find his arrogance and paranoia irritating. But I argued against the "call to shun", as I hate censorship, and believe if you are going to use the ignore frunction, it should be a personal choice and not some gang-tackle thing.

Everyone has a right to speak out, as long as they follow the rules. And of course, everyone has to live with themselves and their choices. If you belittle folks and attack them constantly, they are going to retaliate. It's simple and obvious.