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What if you pay a lot of money to someone and then they get banned?

blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
05-26-2005 01:55
This is in reference to this thread: /120/32/47973/1.html

How does that work?

For example, let's say you spend 15$K on a craps table to mr XYZ, where they have a support agreement to fix it when new updates come available.

And then they get banned before delivering content.

Or, heck, let's just say you pay someone 100$K for something and then they get banned.

What happens to their L$? Who takes over for their content?

Can they log in one more time to get a copy of everything to transfer it to someone else?

Things you need to consider when getting into a deal with a third party.

One suggestion: get an escrow service which holds onto a 'modifiable' copy of your product. If they get banned, then you should be able to posess a copy of a modifiable version.

Actually, for that matter, what happens to your L$ when you get banned?
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Hiro Pendragon
bye bye f0rums!
Join date: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,905
05-26-2005 02:01
blaze, this is one of the most intelligent and original pondering I think I've ever heard from you!

Can you imagine, for instance, (and not that it would happen) if Anshe or IGEWheeling got banned? I think that alone deserves a Linden response.
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Hiro Pendragon
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
05-26-2005 02:27
This may sound harsh, but those are the breaks I guess. I have a feeling LL would state the same.

Maybe when we get the ability to create inter-player contracts there will be some sort of recourse.
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
05-26-2005 04:48
What happens if you invest 100K USD in a company and it folds?
The guys who sold me my computer folded a long time ago.
This is why people who need support buy from the biggest most reliable vendors.
Next time, buy FIC :)
Jsecure Hanks
Capitalist
Join date: 9 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,451
05-26-2005 04:53
Ha ha, I eagerly look forward to ads from people in world advertising "Buy from one of the MOST fetid players in game, nobody gets closer to the inner core than me!" :D
blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
05-26-2005 04:57
Slight difference between folding and LL kicking you out of SecondLife.
_____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
05-26-2005 05:06
I think a kind of service gom offers is nice. I can keep money in gom in case my sl account is suspended or for some reason I can't access sl. If I am suspeneded I could create a new account on SL that could access the gom account or sell the money on gom without accessing sl. Maybe we could keep items in such an account as well.
blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
05-26-2005 05:20
Yeah...

Maybe we need to demand a download capability to back up our objects if we are truly going to have 'digital' ownership.

Otherwise, our ownership depends on whether or not LL likes us.
_____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
05-26-2005 05:34
It's trivial to export an object's properties to email. I coded one such script recently so we could import SL objects into OSMP.
blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
05-26-2005 05:36
I'm sure it's trivial for trivial objects :)
_____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Pendari Lorentz
Senior Member
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,372
05-26-2005 06:10
This is a topic I've often thought about almost since I started in SL. Mostly when I started creating items to sell. I remember wondering what would happen if something happened to me and someone who bought something of mine had an issue.

Perhaps this will eventually lead to "Guarantee" or "Warranty" or other types of Policies where individual businesses state their "plan of action" should anything happen to them. I'm sure that could all be worded more simply, but I am thinking in broad terms I guess and the more narrow details could be hashed out.

A contract of some type would be nice. Perhaps the ability to purchase a "safety deposit box with a *will* of some sort". Leaving your final wishes. That the lindens could open and disperse. Or even a 3rd party organization could get into offering this service.

I definitely think that as this world grows and evolves, the way commerce and business practices are handled is going to have to evolve as well.

Just throwing my thoughts out. :)
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David Valentino
Nicely Wicked
Join date: 1 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,941
05-26-2005 07:33
Do business with trustworthy and good people. Your odds will go way up that they will act honorably and not get banned. Of course death, injury and illness miht still play a part in sudden absenses.
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David Lamoreaux

Owner - Perilous Pleasures and Extreme Erotica Gallery
Nikolaii Uritsky
Filthy Old Man
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 671
05-26-2005 07:42
From: Eggy Lippmann
Next time, buy FIC :)


FIC WORKS FOR ME.
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Travis Lambert
White dog, red collar
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,819
05-26-2005 07:48
From: David Valentino
Do business with trustworthy and good people. Your odds will go way up that they will act honorably and not get banned. Of course death, injury and illness miht still play a part in sudden absenses.


My sentiments exactly. Everything buisness-related in SL (and RL) has a risk attached to it, some things more than others.

If risk concerns you, then it's prudent to take as many steps to mitigate risk as possible, including taking reputation into account before you get involved.
Timmy Night
Cliff View Owner
Join date: 4 Apr 2005
Posts: 291
05-26-2005 08:05
From: David Valentino
Do business with trustworthy and good people. Your odds will go way up that they will act honorably and not get banned. Of course death, injury and illness miht still play a part in sudden absenses.


Whether or not someone acts honorably is not always the case involving getting banned. If there is a concerted effort to get someone banned through massive amounts of complaints, then their honor will not protect them.

I agree that we need a binding contract and warranty system and I believe the Lindens are working on this. It will make things a lot easier, of course, now we will have lawyers as profession in SL. :-)
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David Valentino
Nicely Wicked
Join date: 1 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,941
05-26-2005 08:13
From: Timmy Night
Whether or not someone acts honorably is not always the case involving getting banned. If there is a concerted effort to get someone banned through massive amounts of complaints, then their honor will not protect them.

I agree that we need a binding contract and warranty system and I believe the Lindens are working on this. It will make things a lot easier, of course, now we will have lawyers as profession in SL. :-)



Well..I was going more with averages. I doubt very much that complaint campaigns go on often to those undeserving.

You will never see a binding contract and warranty system within the confines of SL, due ot the cost and difficulty in enforcing them.

Now if people go outside of SL, to third party sites, to sell SL servces or objects, that site might be subject to a contractual agreement, but again, for virtual goods within what many consider a "game", it's highly doubtful.
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David Lamoreaux

Owner - Perilous Pleasures and Extreme Erotica Gallery
Drift Monde
Junior Member
Join date: 27 Nov 2003
Posts: 335
05-26-2005 08:35
Another thought, I believe it is against TOS to transfer your acct to another but what if you had a successful business or Club or anything you thought was of value and you wanted to see it continue. So you Will it to your spouse, friend or relative. Would this be permitted or would LL just delete your acct if they found out you were deceased?

Would they have to abide by a last will and testament and transfer ownership or allow it to be transferred? If it was a spouse i'm sure it could be considered community property but it still raises some questions.
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blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
05-26-2005 08:42
Actually, there is precedent here.

Both Gaming Open Market have transfered users and IGE has multiple people using their avatar.

I guess this is a concept of a "Corporate Avatar".
_____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Beryl Greenacre
Big Scaredy-Baby
Join date: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 1,312
05-26-2005 08:57
From: Drift Monde
Another thought, I believe it is against TOS to transfer your acct to another but what if you had a successful business or Club or anything you thought was of value and you wanted to see it continue. So you Will it to your spouse, friend or relative. Would this be permitted or would LL just delete your acct if they found out you were deceased?
The whole spouse question is interesting. What if you had a husband/wife (or life partner/life partner, to be PC) team who created things, then they divorced... could the SL creations to which they hold IP rights be considered property?

I live in a joint property state which means that if my husband and I were to divorce, we'd divide things equally (including the debts). Will courts eventually be forced to split up game currency and creations if they equate to a lot of money?

Oh, I can't wait to see how future legal battles play out; it should be mighty interesting.
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Cindy Claveau
Gignowanasanafonicon
Join date: 16 May 2005
Posts: 2,008
05-26-2005 09:15
From: Beryl Greenacre
I live in a joint property state which means that if my husband and I were to divorce, we'd divide things equally (including the debts). Will courts eventually be forced to split up game currency and creations if they equate to a lot of money?

Oh, I can't wait to see how future legal battles play out; it should be mighty interesting.

If the virtual property can be shown to have real value, I'll bet it would hold up in court.

This is a December 04 Article regarding Virtual Property, but it mentions Second Life, among other things.
From: someone
When people think about "regulating" a game with real-life law, they tend to tell one of two stories. In the first story, someone in the game gets mad at someone else and brings a suit in a real-life court. This story leads to a long philosophical brouhaha about interlocking legal systems and comity and the metaphysical nature of gaming. But most of that brouhaha that turns out to be more heat than noise, because almost as soon as you fill in the story with case-specific details, the right answer is usually obvious. Thus:

"Your Dark Elf killed my Lizardman!" fails to state a cause of action in any game with explicit player-killing. Dark Elves kill Lizardmen all the time, and Lizardmen kill Dark Elves all the time, and everyone accepts that such things are part of the game. This kind of "killing" isn't wrongful from a real-life point of view.
"You hacked the server and stuck my Lizardman in a wall for four hours!" also fails to state a civil cause of action, because this hack was a straightforward Terms of Service violation. Sure, it was wrongful, but there's also someone already ready to come down on the wrongdoer with vengeful fury. The game's owners are likely to boot the Dark Elf and fix the hole.
"You defamed me with your comments to other players!" does state a cause of action. There's nothing very game-specific about defamation or other speech torts. The real-life court will have no conceptual difficulty utterly ignoring the fact that the false accusations of real-life child molestation took place in a virtual world.

It's not easy to figure out the right general principle by which to draw the line here. People have been going at it now and then since Jennifer Mnookin's Virtual(ly) Law, and are going at it still. But however hard it is to figure out the underlying principle, the actual decisions are almost always easy. As long as the disputes are strictly between players, you have to strain to find an even moderately difficult decision. The only tough calls seem to involve conduct that was against game "rules" but for which there is no remedy available. But such conduct implicates the game owners, since they're the ones who failed to supply the remedy.

Which brings us to the second story, the one that actually keeps people up at night. This is the story of the player who is angry at the game owners and sues them. Now, under current law, these cases are almost always trivially easy to resolve: whatever conduct the player was annoyed at was probably explicitly allowed under the terms of service. The player loses. But this "answer" seems too pat for a lot of people at the conference; it starts to seem openly wrong in many cases. A lot of other people at the conference think these "openly wrong" results are in fact openly right -- and suddenly you have an interesting conversation.

You may be asking yourself what kind of crack I'm on to be thinking seriously about the possibility of players suing game owners. Let me try to explain why this isn't such an outrageous proposition. The first reason is that players have sued a game owners already. A group of Ultima Online guides -- the players who run around getting other players out of walls in exchange for free accounts -- sued Origin, claiming that they were employees, and entitled to minimum wage. The game designers at the conference bewail the suit, saying that companies making virtual worlds have had to divest themselves of reliance on guides for any significant roles, lest they too be sued. So we have a palpable acknowledgement that, where real money and real laws are at stake, the game-i-ness of games stops seeming so important, and the Terms of Service stop seeming so sacrosanct.

More importantly, though, as the game designers repeatedly point out, there are lots of game designers out there who do stupid, harmful things to their users. The conference opens with Raph Koster discussing his Declaration of the Rights of Avatars, which is basically a catalog of the stupid, harmful things game owners do to their players. Something about the power of being an admin, Raph observes, corrupts. Invested with god-like powers in-game, the admins eavesdrop on intimate conversations, arbitrarily pick on hapless players, and generally screw with players' minds and positions in the game.

It might not matter so much if the only thing at stake were bruised egos. But Dan Hunter and Greg Lastowka have been pointing out, players in virtual worlds are acquiring things that walk, talk, and quack like valuable property. If I have a Bone Crusher mace in Ultima Online, I can sell it to you for about $225. If you steal it from me, I'm out $225. If the person who steals it from me isn't you, but is instead the UO administration, I'm still $225 poorer. If the "administration" does it to me because some junior sysadmin didn't like the cut of my avatar's jib, we're edging even closer to something that sounds like an actionable tort. Why actionable? Because it just seems wrong, and that sense of wrongness is like a beacon, inviting judges to cut through the fog of claims that "it's just a game."
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Random Unsung
Senior Member
Join date: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 345
05-26-2005 09:18
From: someone
Whether or not someone acts honorably is not always the case involving getting banned. If there is a concerted effort to get someone banned through massive amounts of complaints, then their honor will not protect them.



Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. I wonder how many bans we'd see if the entire "Abuse Report" system was temporarily suspended to shake loose all those who misuse it to settle personal scores.

I think putting the funds on GOM is one solution, but then you'd have to hope that GOM would then transfer the funds from an old account banned to a new account made. The prudent person would keep an inactive account unlikely to attract attacks and malicious AR's as one of the avs that can be paid from GOM. I'd like to read the fine print at GOM to see if they have this capacity to transfer from old to new avs.

I also think groups with officers -- trusted officers of course -- is a solution to the problem of transfers as well. If you are banned or unable to login due to an emergency, at least those trusted officers can hold the land and possible liquidate it as well for you.

All of these options can and should be explored by those seeking to protect their assets in a framework where landowners' rights are not so well protected, where attacks on landowners abound, and where the AR system is misused.

Ultimately, anyone spending $15,000 on a craps table has to know they are engaging in a risk.

I know what it is like to have purchased items I rely on and the maker has gone AWOL and refused to answer e-mails for whatever reason. It's annoying. But it's a pixelated cyberspace world and I realize that we are all as grass....
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
05-26-2005 09:19
There are many scenarios in which you could be left "holding the bag" so to speak. LL cannot safeguard against this. I mean, what will they do? Hand out 50k to everyone who bought a Hold 'em table (it's doubtful that amount of L$ even resides on the banned player's account, so in a sense, that would be asking LL to dump newly *minted* L$ into the economy)? Force an already taxed staff to take over the project?

I think someone said what happens when a RL company folds, which was followed with something about banning not being the equivalent of a company folding. It is, in a sense, if that person went to jail as a result, which we see happening lately in RL. Is it sad that all those investors lost their investments? Some of them the greater portion of their life savings? Yes. But nothing is ever 100% guaranteed, even if advertized as such.

I am sure glad I did not by a Yugo. :o
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
05-26-2005 09:21
From: Timmy Night
Whether or not someone acts honorably is not always the case involving getting banned. If there is a concerted effort to get someone banned through massive amounts of complaints, then their honor will not protect them.

If you believe that this is possible, then your issue is with LL.
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Dianne Mechanique
Back from the Dead
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,648
05-26-2005 09:24
From: Eggy Lippmann
It's trivial to export an object's properties to email. I coded one such script recently so we could import SL objects into OSMP.

Hey Eggy,

Do you know if it's possible to export textures and pictures out of objects into RL?

Obviously such a thing would have many nefarious possibilities and only a few legit ones, but I am curious as to whether it is actaully possible.

Dianne
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Foolish Frost
Grand Technomancer
Join date: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,433
05-27-2005 05:22
Simple solution:

Transfer cash when the goods are delivered.

Have a third party come in as witness to the contract, with both people in it agreeing the chatlog is public record.
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