Jump start the economy

This is an offshoot from Pat Murphy's comments in the SLApathy thread.

Let's take it as a given that if you have some substatial amount of money, you made it by improving the world in some ways (see my various half-baked economic theory posts for my reasoning behind this).

Right now people aren't really motivated to make money, beyond substience levels, but LL wants people to want money because they want to world to improve.

What if, when the game goes live and for-pay, you could exchange your L$ for payment to your real $ game account. I'm thinking an exhange rate of 1000:1 or 2000:1, or something, up to (say) half your monthly fees. I have the feeling that the economy would become _much_ tighter then, and people would become _much_ more interested in making money.

I would be interested on any Linden's thoughts on this.

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This thread is pre Voting Booth - keep that in mind. At the time the stipend was your only source of income and everyone was broke.


Xavier

There already is an online game out there that fixes a real world money value to online game content. I think it's still in beta and last I heard it wasn't doing so well.

The real question is: What would you buy in game?

For me it would be scripting skills since I don't have any. So far I havn't had any need to script anything.

Anything I thought might be neat to have I've tired to make myself and I think that's true for most people in the beta so far.

I don't think the game is complex enough yet to support an economy.

But Anyway My question is: What would you buy?

You might be talking about There. From what I understand, you have to pay a small amount of R$ to do anything There. This is a bad idea.

What I'm talking about specifically is not SL$ <--> RL$ but a very very limited instance of SL$ --> RL$, so it's not a way for money to enter the game, but it is an economic "sink". Thus, the people who do the most in the world are rewarded in real life terms, by having the option to convert their SL$ in to _part_ of their monthly fee. Economics work on a work/reward system, and right now, the reward part of the equation is missing.

So to answer Maxen's question indirectly, this would co-exists with buying things, as another money sink. The motivation to buy things doesn't change by this plan, but the motivation to sell things increases a lot. Thus people will find things that people want to buy, the great invisible hand of capatilism will cradle us all in its warm and loving clutches, and the world will be all sunshine and lollipops (I assume).

The Lindens could re-introduce this lost money as reward for events and projects and whatnot, so the economy can remain closed.

[Edit: Of course, once you establish that SL$ have a real-world value (however small), people start getting all freaky, and there will be fights, screaming, hair pulling and then the lawyers will come.]

Ah ok sort of like a rebate then,

No the game I'm thinking of is called Project Entropia, or something like that. It's basicly an sci-fi MMORPG which is free to play. The catch is the all items in game cost RL money. The hook is that objects in game could be sold by players for Rl money as well. From what I've heard the exchange rate between the two is so bad that no one is bothering to shell out any reall money to play. I should check up on that again to see if it's changed at all.

NO!

You have to admit, he makes a powerful argument

Ok from a purely business standpoint ... giving away the service to the people who use the most resources is a bad idea.

That being said I think you hit the right point when you mentioned a "money sink". I think there needs to be more things that people do, want to do, or need to do that cost L$ that goes back into the general pool. Right now, aside from building, the only thing is teleportation.

Possibilities (not necessarily good by any means):

- Some sort of "status" items, Linden Official if possible, that cost a LOT but show off that you can afford it. Maybe something that is worn, or something and can't easily be duplicated

- A "high income" sim. Where all the land costs 10x, taxes are tripled and land plots are doubled (8*8 instead of 4*4 squares). Or something.

- There has to be more ideas. Things that people would -want- to spend their money on, lots of it.

I don't knwo if I dreamed this or it's in a post... but we need cities! when noobs can only afford being in the city and the plots outside between cities (cities would be 3 or 4 sims apart) would be SUPER $$$

Well, yes and no. First off, note that I said that you might be able to use your L$ to pay off some of your fees, not all of them. The idea is that the Lindens are (very) indirectly paying you RL$ to provide content in the world.

Second, remember what L$ represent, your right to use some amount of server resources. If you have convinced people to give you some of their server resources, then they are your's to use. Now if these can be exchanged for something that doesn't actually use up server resources, that's a good thing.



I am of two minds about this. My immediate reactions to this were "ooh, cool! No, wait, class system, yuck, no, wait everyone starts even, so cool, but still, classism, yuck"

I understand what you are saying about the SL$ -> monthly fees thing now. And I agree that it could work sorta. I mean there would have to be restrictions, like you can only ever get a discount of 50% of your monthly fees. And it would have to cost a LOT - like $5k LD to get $1 off your next month. Then $35k LD a month could get your bill to $8 instead of $15.
Yeah thats a lot to come up with each month, especially now, but the world is small, it will be easier when it gets bigger, and it should be hard to get the discount.


I think the downsides of classism can be avoided. If the sim fills up, build another. Everyone has the potential to earn the money to get there. And remember that all money spent goes into the general pool (right??) to come out again as stipends and ratings bonuses. So this would take the money from the rich and distribute it among everyone (a very un-classism idea) while at the same time giving the rich something they want and would be willing to sacrifice the money for.

I actually really like this idea the more I think about it. Other things could be done to make this a primo sim. All public land could default to 'No Build' to reduce trash. Could have a shorter span on inactivity that would cause the land to revert to public, and auto de-rez all your stuff when it did (you would of course get the money back). I think there are possibilities for a primo sim that deserves looking into.


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Another idea would be to offer several different price ranges of sims, but that is hard cuz the sims are already populated. Then you could have newb area sims that would be cheap, all the way up to primo sims and several stages in between. The people that can afford to move up know more, have more money and in theory could produce better stuff. At each level. <shrug> It's an idea.

People who are using a lot of computer resources wouldn't be trading in their SL$ anyway. I think what Wdnesday is suggesting would allow people with SL$ piling up in their accounts to trade in it for a break in the RL$ monthly cost to play the game. This would allow computer resources to be returned to the open market. Since SL$ already repersents the RL$ computing cost it makes some sense to do this.

Hmmm the primo sim is an interesting idea but I see some problems with it. If the newbies are incouraged to group together it could cause large areas of visual slums from their lack of knowledge of how to build things. Also older players may avoid these areas out of habit thinking nothing interest would be there. It may have the effect of turning the newbies into a second class.

How much is SL going to cost when it goes live? If it is competitively priced, it really won't be all that much, at least not enough for me to work for a discount.

I am interested in making money though. It is not the easiest thing to do in SL. In part because no one is really buying much, for many players there is no source of reliable income. Although I do see people really trying.

I like Xavier's original thread post, rl $ for sl$. Maybe with a limited amount per month, for those whom this idea scares. It would be, of course, only a supplementation to earning sl $
in-world.



fen -

I don't see any of those reasons as being negatives, except newbies not getting help maybe. But I don't really think that will happen.

Yes the newbie areas could turn into slums, but it would confine the slums - more or less.

And newbies would be a second class like people under 18 are. (/me ducks and runs ). They would grow out of it and move on to better places.

AGREED!

___________
And yes, he does make a very good argument...

This is one interesting thread.

OK - note to others - get your rocks ready.


I think the Lindens should give us (as example) say a month to get our affairs in order (ie sell off/save our junk) then reset the grids.. (ducks, weaves, holds hands up and says "listen listen"

personally I wold like to see 3 types of sims...

the first sim would be a City Sim. The Lindens set it out with premade grid of streets, ready for shops, housing tracks, etc to be put up by eager players.

The second sim would be the "outback". large expanses of land, with lots of room for building huge sprawling complexes or giant castles. (also note this would be the sort of land to put the Outlands on).

Third type would be specialized. A single sim for new commers, one for the very wealthy, etc...

The reason for this thinking....
The city sims are preset with roads so the buildings can only be so big on the x,y but can actually tower in the z if so choosen. There would actually be a city layout that was well designed because the streets are perm public land (no build). This would allow of travelling to and from stores, and for drag racing on saturday nights..... In essence, a city is a city. You dont need a lot of money for land, you spend more on the building - since the plots are smaller.

The outback is huge and sprawling, you can buy large plots of land, create farms and horse ranches, or huge castles. It's for the people who dont want to be near the cities, and who can afford to purchase large tracts of land. One idea is to change the cost of the land - or the parcels in which you can buy it - so that you reinforce this idea of large plots (but that may be too much).

The new commers area gets dirt cheap land, or free - and they can work on building and designing here. Give it say 1 - 2 months, at the end of that time the land reverts back to open for sale and they are no longer able to purchase in that area. It makes sure there is always a source of ready land for new commers to gain experience playing with.

And of course for the wealthy - a sim where the lands costs large amounts (I would set this up in large sweeping grids - with each section plotted off so that you *had* to buy it in these large plots). Land here costs large amounts, but it's worth it - the population density is low - so these are the sims where many parties would be held. It's a status symbol to own these lands, and the people who do *deserve* it.

This whole idea really stems from the fact that to make a really good city, you need a city plan. you need to know where the streets are going, and how big a block is. If the Lindens set these street grids up, it allows the players to be just as creative as before.. they will be looking at..
1) not all streets are universally spaced - so which ones are smaller, which ones are larger, and how much space do I need.

2) what is more important - a larger space, or one that is more readily available to the public? am I building a store or a home?

3) people have already got 3 dress shops on this street. maybe if I locate mine over on the other side of town I will have less competition... or maybe there's a *reason* the dress shops do so well here....


In the end - the city grid sims would make us *think* more about our positioning, and rely less on "where can I find a plot large enough without a giant duck blocking my view?.

On problem I see right off the bat is who will oversee, organize and insure people do what you suggest where you suggest it? What will keep me from buying a bigger city plot than you envision, or for that matter keep hoards from doing in your "outback" what is being done right now?

I think there are portions of your idea that do spark my interest BUT at the same time it does take away from the open ended aspect of the game.

you could buy all the city plots you wanted, but they are still restricted by the perm public roads. so you will still be building *in* the grid.

though you could buy on each side and build a over walk, but that's just like any city.

as for the outback - yeah that would be a problem and would take some thought. but hey that's why one person alone doesnt come up with new ideas - that we all contribute to them

Most of the really good(not all), interesting cities of the world didn't have a city plan. I much prefer a more organic development of the sims. If they start planning out development for everyone, well can you say track housing.

I agree. in a way that's not a bad thing though. many of the good cities were laid out to a plan - because it was easier to get around and deal with congestion.

The interesting cities were just grown up - but those are the cities you back-track 5 ways to get where your going.

the city grids would just be a convienance. a place where the streets were laid out - and everyone knew, go there and you can find shops or clubs etc... and remember, there is nothing to say that they cities cannot be added on to at the outskirts in whatever fashion

The grid city is only one type of city plan and maybe should be tried out.
Whose to say that there should be only one city though.
Perhaps people will want to make theme cities designed after certain places and eras.

Beisdes with landmarks you don't have to go down any street at all, hit a bottun and you're there.

This still can be done without a wipe. You (with or without partners) can start collecting land, lay out your grid and sprout a city a la Lindenburg.

I wasnt thinking of one city alone either. but rather a number - and many variations could be tried out.


and yes, Lindenburg is a fine city - and no a wipe isnt really required. but I'm talking about one city where the city layout is *premade* by the Lindens.

To do that, you would need either a) a whole new sim, or b) one sim to be wiped at the least so they could set down the perm public roads.