IRL - Economy

Since the service will have a monthly fee, why not make it more interesting. Like 1 Linden Dollar = 1 cents IRL. You can actually pay for your account in Linden dollars if you sold enough stuff on line, or if you have the extra cash you wouldn't have to worry about selling and build whatever you wish ( I really like this), you will just be charged a little extra at the end of the month.

You could turn a profit, or end up owning a minimal amount at the end of the month. So if the monthly fee is $10.00 your allotment for utilities and building ect... would be 10,000.00 Linden. You could get rid of the rating ( which I personally despise since complete strangers walk up to me and hand me calling cards and rate me ).

- Xavier Von Lenard -

This is a fascinating topic, and I would be very interested in what other folks think (so pls chime in!). Our thinking has been:

A big appeal of a second life is the idea that everyone starts out on the same footing, and that relative success/wealth amongst people be driven soley by in-world actions. Imagine by comparison the early days of most RW countries - although there are always railroads and banks and stuff, much of the local economies were driven by local contributions/resources/rewards. We wanted to capture the positive aspects of that basic spirit.

So our thinking was that not establishing an exchange betweed USD <-> SLD was the best way to go.

Comments/thoughts?

This is a fascinating topic, and I would be very interested in what other folks think (so pls chime in!). Our thinking has been:

A big appeal of a second life is the idea that everyone starts out on the same footing, and that relative success/wealth amongst people be driven soley by in-world actions. Imagine by comparison the early days of most RW countries - although there are always railroads and banks and stuff, much of the local economies were driven by local contributions/resources/rewards. We wanted to capture the positive aspects of that basic spirit.

So our thinking was that not establishing an exchange betweed USD <-> SLD was the best way to go.

Comments/thoughts?

>> A big appeal of a second life is the idea that everyone starts out on the same footing, and that relative success/wealth amongst people be driven soley by in-world actions. <<

I understand and appreciate the thought behind this, but it seems to me that people would not start out on the same footing. As time goes on, new people coming into SL would be dealing with people and 'businesses' that were well established. It would become more and more difficult to attain wealth, just as it is for immigrants coming to the U.S.

Now this might work if people were given enough 'seed money' coming in to adequately sustain them until they could establish a lucrative business. A 'jobs for everyone' strategy might help also -- everyone coming in would be able to get a job if they so chose. I would LOVE a job right now!!

I have to admit that I am having a very hard time being poor in SL. In r/l, I worked long and hard for many years to establish myself and to reach a point where I am 'comfortable'. This is a game, it is entertainment, and I'm not fond of the idea of slinging virtual french fries or living in virtual poverty unless and until I devise a successful 'strike it rich' idea. I don't like being poor. There's nothing fun about it. I do not, for entertainment, wish to 'relive' my years of poverty and the pain that went along with it. It was bad enough in my first life, I'm not going there again by choice, for fun.

On the flip side, had I discovered this game during my poverty years, if I had been able to squeeze out the monthly fee, I would have been much more inclined to do so if my 'second life' was a true escape from the harsh reality of my life. A second life where I was wealthy, life was easy, and I had a whole lot of fun would have been a welcome respite. A second life that was a continuation of my first would not have been worth the monthly fee.

Either way, if this is going to be appealing to the masses, I think becoming wealthy and living the good life will have to be relatively easy.

Just my opinion -
Kerstin

Xavier: I must say I think your idea is brilliant. I also think, if implemented, it would benefit LL much more than the majority of players/residents. Not that I think that's a bad thing -- as a for profit company, LL -must- make a profit in order to stay in business and keep the game online. I just don't think the percentage of folks who would actually pay any significant amount of Real Dollars above the monthly fee would be enough for LL to actually feel it.

Kerstin: I TOTALLY get what you're saying. I'm having a hard enough time IRL right now -- I'm playing the game for an escape... to relax... to have fun... to not have to worry about anything other than how to get X script to do what I want it to do.

Philip: I agree with your (LL's) thinking that not establishing a link between US$ and SL$ is the best way to go.

I do think we need more ways to make money in world. How about some "Community Chest" (borrowing from Monopoly) type cards... once a week (same day as stipend day?) everyone gets one card, which gives anywhere from $5 to $1000 for various things? Could charge SL 5$ for those if desired, but limit them to 1 per person per week.

Also, how about a referral fee (SL$s) for bringing new residents in world?

#!

First, I think it would be a bad idea to exchange RW money for SL money - it would just create a gap between players, the casual would feel uncomfortable playing with those willing to shell out $50/month to feed their second life obsession.

Second, I think one thing that would go a long way toward "solving" the money woes so many users are having is to get the group budget feature into existence. I find that I enjoy using second life the most when I am playing with others who’s company I enjoy. Its existence as a massively multiuser online environment necessitates that some kind of social structure is formed. In other words, in order for SL to succeed, you need to be able to make friends online. I've discussed this with a few other users, and I found that when I first started really getting into the game, it was because I was collaborating on projects with other users. Because of our shared enthusiasm for whatever we were working on, we started to appreciate each others company, and would log on more often in order to "hang out" with them.

I have seen some users work on joint projects, but right now, folks are feeling like they can't spend any L$, as we are in a recession. I think the best way to encourage both social growth, and economic balance is to allow group budgets. That way, while a single new user can't afford a house the size of some of the more established users, they can create a group complex, built together. That way, they can have the "good life" that kerstin craves, while not unduly hurting their personal finances. plus, in the creation of this multi-user house, they will work together and (hopefully) bond as friends. If a user is successful in making more L$, they can always build their own house, but when the recession hits, they will always have somewhere to go.

Um, in response to shebangs - I'm not a fan of the community chest just because if a user gets the $5 card, they will feel shafted when their bud gets the 1k card.

BBC

Thanks for the thoughts on this thread.

I also think that there should be some "easy" made money on just being present. I know it will be a hard trick to distinguish amungest someone just staying logged in and away. Perhaps theres some way to knock an ID off thats just idle for an hour?

Right now the leaders board is pretty lopsided and Iver heard people commenting "I have not even met that person". This has happened because there were testers that had built up a good base but are never around. And yet people who have been in there every night and not built much (because of lack of funds)are suffering because they *are* involved.

I like Steller's idea of $$ for time spent inworld too. If an av is idle for say 20 minutes, it could be auto set to AFK, and no $$ given for AFK time. That would force anyone who's just logged in to get $$ to have to come back to their puter and move their av every 20 minutes. It would also avoid penalizing those who just need to go grab a sandwich or throw in some laundry.

Maybe those AFK for more than 10 minutes after their 20 minute 'safe' time could also be automatically teleported to an AFK 'corral'. Those constantly in the AFK Corral would likely be teased about it, and that would discourage people from logging in just to get $$ as well. Also would keep them from 'hiding' in a remote area just to go AFK.

Kerstin

Oh, eeek =) I so don't like the "afk corral" deal, because I'd be zapped there every 15 seconds due to my narcolepsy!

BBC: ok, forget about the CC cards idea --- how about lottery tickets? Same concept, without the "you inherited $XXX" labels. I agree with you about the group funds, and building together. I haven't done much building with others (much? not any, actually) because I still suck at it, but I totally get into the brainstorming.

#!

As one of the newer people here, I've been in world for 3 days, I agree there needs to be a way to earn extra money. I bought some land and erected the default cabin, now my only option is to wait for payday. I've read all the info on how to make money, but for someone just learning, there is no way I can make and sell something better than what is already available.

Maybe as part of the Introduction process, you could offer the new person the option of being asigned a "job" that would give them some extra money, teach them a skill which would be useful later, and benifit the comunity. The job could be limited by time, amount or both. Once their limit is reached, they can go out into the world with a little extra money and the skills necessary to suceed.

As of tonight we will start testing a new way to earn money - Voting stations that give money to owners of the most popular spots/parties/etc.

Login and find one of the greeters to get one... should be fun and a step in the direction of more money sources.

We're also working on a bunch of other economy tuning. Stay tuned and keep posting to this thread your ideas!

I'd like to announce that with some scripting help from BBC and Law (thanks you two), we'll be able to have a weekly Second Life Lotto (SLotto!) game beginning this Saturday. Whereas this won't help everybody escape the current poverty, it will help a lucky person or two each week, and it'll be fun.

It'll work pretty much like the r/l state lotteries -- you buy tickets, the proceeds go into a pool, once a week a winner (or more than one winner cause of the way my software works) will win whatever's in the pool. The more people play, the more money there will be in the pot.

I'll put out a SLotto! box where you can buy your tickets. You pay the SLotto! box, and it will email me your name and how much you paid. I should have it out tonight by the Welcome Area corral.

Now about those proceeds, I'd like to sell the tickets for $10 each, and keep $2 of each ticket for my time in coordinating the lottery and entering all the info into the software each week, and I'd also pay people who help me out of that money. Do you guys think that's fair?

Thanks -
Kerstin

I like the job for money idea myself as well, not being a real social person and not being able to spend huge amounts of time online doesn't help me much. I raised this once before, but would it be possible to assign some sort of community building projects to people and pay them to complete the job.

Definitely we are going to have civic projects as well!

Ultimately there will be banking and a rational way for collective choice to occur to decide what these projects will be, but for now we are going to pick some projects that are pretty obviously desirable and 'fund' them out of the global pool.

Ryan (Ryan Linden) is planning a sort of 'Westworld' project right now as a first case of this. You can message him in-world or in the forums... he will be setting prices he'd like to pay for a set of structures and interiors he'd like built.

Also, Hunter Linden has posted interest in several things he'd like to pay to have built - I remember a chainsaw attachment as one.

Also, Paul, fee free to message me with any ideas on stuff you'd like to built for civic good.

Thanks for the tips Philip, will check them out in the new year.

Kerstin, where is the first SLotto box going in? Sounds great! I want to see it.

I just love the idea of a lotto, everyone has an even chance to make money. However, unless all you want built for civic projects are little brown boxes, looks like the newbies will be left out.

I've been in world since the original Linden World and I am still having money problems. It's not just a newbie problem. I'd be glad to help you out learning anything I currently know. My skills are limited to building and texturing the objects. Would love to learn scripting myself, but I'm semi-brain dead when it comes to programing of any kind.

Phillip, I'll be putting in SLotto! box number one by the Welcome Area tonight. The email function isn't working quite right, and I need to tweak the script to accept $$ only in multiples of $10, and then it'll be ready to go.

I'd also like to talk with you about my Second Life radio station. Tune in at http://www.live365.com/stations/298898. I'll be broadcasting tonight at about 7:30pm EST.


Kerstin

Heres my 2 cents lol.

I am sorry to Xavier, as we are friends here on SL, working together on a project or two, but I am not fond of useing $$ from real life to fund SL. As this is true and I agree that this is supposed to be fun. I do play this as an escape from my real world nightmare at times, I really would not like to be reminded in something that is ment to be fun, like SL. That I am not doing financially well in real life everytime I walk/fly by a Bill Gates mansion in SL funded by a 100k or more a year real life job, that I in real life could only dream about.

But enough of this, if this talk keeps going it will seem more like an extension of real life and haveing its own "problems" instead of being fun.

Being broke in SL is no fun either, easy to give up on it when u cant learn to script or build when your $$ are in the red.

So here is my ideato add to some of the real great ideas ive seen here:

Have a small area where people can make items, experiment, make scripts and see if they work. Where in this area item cost nothing, and no tax.

Now say you make something here you like and want to keep....
Make it so if the person wants it they must put it into inventory to keep it. since most of us do this anyway, and risk the effects of the linden tax man sweeping by while we are experimenting. This would cater to the idea of learning and perfecting skills that would allow someone to make money without the initial worries.

since you pay for items taken out of inventory and created anyway, it wouldnt be a big deal to put into inventory in the free build area, and taken out anywhere else. ext have it so that items that are dragged out of the free area either turn public and still have a time 2 die attached to them or a warning box pops up saying in x amount of mins. this item will be deleted.

Also so the area doesnt get cluttered have a build in time2die on the land for items not touched or modified for a period of time, and have the items dissapear when their owner either leaves the free area, or loggs off and doesnt come back for a set amount of time(allowed relog time needed for a safe guard against crashes and such).

Maybe call this a second, Novice, if you will welcome area that can be monitored by a Linden just like the welcome area. Doing this could also get the congregating away from the newbie entrance, therefore reducing lag there as object/scripts/av's wont have an effect on the welcome area #1.

Next/Last for now idea: I agree with havein a bigger entry cash alotment as us long timers build bigger and better things it will be very hard for newbies and current long timers that are broke to catch up or keep up.

Along with the larger alotment maybe allowing a default portion or size of peoples land to be tax free, so that someone can get a better start, and stay at least established. also combine this with the fact that over time objects on public land being deleted over time, someone couldnt really exploit this very well, by only haveing the "tax free" land and building monstrosities cus they have more $. But still make them pay to buy the tax free land.

This would work great for people who dont buy/build big houses and just want to play with scripts or make small objects to sell.
also would help new people and or broke people(most of us). Get established and stay established.

Again this is supposed to be fun yes but this is a beta, bugs are here, we are here to work them out and help make it smooth and enjoyable as it grows. We should think along this line. Maybe a suggestion for Linden labs could be to maybe relax the financial burden till more of the bugs are found and/or fixed, worked through. I see the need for a established economy as this goes public, but with so many people struggling to find $$ there will be a possability of less focus on the real issue of being a beta and finding bugs, maybe the tight economy could wait till closer to realease.

Sorry dont be mad at me for saying this Philip, and Linden Labs, just an opinion and trying to help. I do think you have a awsome idea here and I would love to grow with it.

The solution to the economy will probably be a combination of a number of solutions. A number of good ones have been mentioned.

As of right now, I can see all of us eventually going broke. Not many are buying, the stipend is getting smaller, taxes need to be paid, the stipend is getting smaller still, not much buying... eek.

I like Xavier's idea, maybe as a base idea to start with. Your monthly fee could be translated into Linden dollars. If you go over that, instead of being charged more RL dollars, a warning of some sort be given to the user -- funds in the red, can't build or create until a) you delete something, b) wait until next months RW to LW $ conversion, c) go out and get a job, or sell something, d) get a loan, win SLotto, etc.

Or a larger unchanging seed amount similar to Kirsten's idea.

Not much different than the stipend idea, but it would not decline. So a player could live at that level, if the player wished too. Hopefully the joys and benefits of creativity and community would take over and the player would want to mature and grow in the game.

IMHO, this would give Joe/Jane Doe/Newbie a fair chance to stay afloat. We have to admit that some that will not excel at scripting, some will not excel at building, and others will not excel at making enough online avatar friends to stay economically sound. But this is a GAME, it is supposed to be fun, when you die in other games, you get more lives, to be able to play and play and play, to have fun. And SL is a really great game.

I would also like to mention that I was beta testing for another multi-user sim game. I mention this now because the game is for sale and their beta is over. The drive to earn money in-game was unpleasant. It was often the major or only factor in that game play, and often the only reason to engage in-game relationships. Game play became a chore and boring. When I found SL, I never looked back. The ability to create and manipulate the environment was just so compelling I was intrigued and soon happily addicted. The people with whom I interact with in SL have been for the very major part, great. Always willing to help, share, and have fun with.

My concern is that if the economic rules are not done right, SL will fall victim to the economy woes of that "other" game.

fen

Great thread! We're listening and digesting....

The design of the SL economic system is (I think) generally consistent with everyone's goals. However, there are a couple bugs (as there always are in beta!) that we are fixing. These changes will occur this week. Most of the cash crunch that you are all feeling is simply a result of those bugs, not actually the intended design, which I will briefly describe:

SL Macro Econ 101
----------------------

The total ("global pool" of money in SL is a fixed number of dollars, which is a function of the number of simulators online and their 'capacity' for land and objects. So you can imagine that the global pool is what it would cost to buy ALL the land in all the simulators, and build on that land until the object capacity of all sims was reached. As a rough number, with 20 simulators and our current capacities the global pool is about $6M.

When you pay taxes, money goes into the global pool. When you get a stipend or bonus, money comes out of the global pool. When you create primitives, money goes into the pool. If a Linden pays for a civic project, that money essentially comes our of the global pool as well. Lotteries (if we do 'state run' ones) are a chance-driven way of getting some money out of the global pool. Make sense?

So next, how do we decide how much to grant for stipends? Well, what we do is deduct from the total global pool the sum of all money in all user's accounts. This essentially gives us what is in the 'federal reserves' - the total amount we have to redistribute to users each week. Stipends move up and down as a function, therefore, of how much money is in everyone's accounts. Like in a real economy, if everyone was afraid to spend, built nothing (thus paying no taxes), and still received a fixed stipend, eventually there would be no money left to redistribute. So when stipends go down, this basically means that users are 'hoarding' money, and there is less available to redistribute. But like in real life, if that happens you can reduce taxes (we could reduce object taxes for example) to incent people to build things (thus paying taxes and putting money back into the pool).

Isn't this neat? So basically SL works very much like the real world economy - interest rates go down if people aren't spending/building, etc. Once we/you implement banking it will work almost exactly like a real economy.

Now the experience of steadily decreasing stipends you are all feeling doesn't fit in here at all, right? We are all building stuff, so there should be plenty money going back into the pool in the form of taxes, right? That's right! It's just a bug! What is happening right now (and we are fixing this week) is that there are many beta users who have never logged in for the first time (or have hardly ever logged in) who are still getting stipends. So what is happening in that the global money supply is piling up into their inactive accounts. We are correcting the problem this week - we won't count inactive acccounts, and we will impose an upper limit on how much money you can get from stipends if you don't login, etc. So this will fix the problem, and most should see higher basic stipends.

This is a vastly simplified explanation of a fairly complex system, but hopefully should at least help you to understand the intended design.

Well now that I started SLotto, I am learning how extremely difficult it is to make money in SL. In fact, it's so difficult, I'm wondering if anyone at all is making a profit?

If anyone has kept records of their expenses versus income, and knows they have made a profit, would you please let me know? I'd like to talk with you about how you did it. I'm especially interested in people who don't sell objects or avatars or scripts, but have made a profit.

Thanks -
Kerstin

1) ld==usd
fundamentally unstable as a medium this would freeze out less fanatic players and allow for the creation of expansionistic entities to dominate large in game areas. Screw building, just the purchasing of land would become impossible very quickly.

2) money for time in world.
A policy that actively punishes people for having a first life that's allowed to take precedence? Yeah, that's great.

3) larger seed allotment
yeah, this is actually a good idea. The hard part will be balance. Say you double it. You're instantly making all the land here now more expensive 5 minutes from now. If you double the seed newbs will purchase more land than they need because it doesn't make the same size dent in their funds, Or at least I did. As soon as you double the land purchase price (as a result of doubling how much land people buy) you eventually end up right back where you started. What we need is a way to earn money that's available to everyone rather than a lump sum at the beginning.

4) idea for newbs : perhaps a set of early trials/tutorials. Say "learn to make this object" and when the newb deposits their object they've both successfully learned something of modelling but also earned themselves a small amount of capital to further their studies. "LindenWorld Community College"?

5) one thing that's always bugged me was that my experiments tend to be temporarily expensive. Creating arrays of objects, etc. That means I need large cash on hand, which means I don't leave much in the way of perm objects hanging around. My Tower is pretty spartan in comparison to some of the cooler places around. But at the same point the linden economic model only makes sense, because every object *does* cost a portion of a finite amount of processing power. Kinda in a jam here. Maybe the system neds small tweaks, so that object creation doesn't hurt quite as much, but is still dear enough to prevent you saying "ahh hell, I can make this wall of a thousand defense drones around my home" without flinching.