Save us from the Lindens

I feel that perhaps, the best way to deal with telehub issues, is not to get rid of them.

But rather have that small 1x1 telehub platform in every sim, on a small piece of linden owned land. Of course those that own the entire sim in the main land could have the ability to have it moved I imagine.

This would mean that you could keep the existing telehubs that have all the ads and building that block everything which you can't fly through unless you use one of those phantom shields. While giving people a almost point 2 point teleportation by teleporting into the sim they want to be because of the small 'telehub plates'.

This would also mean that people wouldn't accidently teleport inside someone's house or such, which is the issue that can arise with point 2 point teleportation.

They weren't observations - P2P doesn't yet exist - they were predictions.

However I think you'll note that quite a few people seem of the opinion that telehubs create clusters of commercial enterprises in their vicinity.
It follows that replacing telehubs with P2P will result in the clustering effect no longer occurring. The obvious conclusion is that the commercial enterprises will then be able to position themselves wherever they happen to fancy. So, instead of being largely confined to the vicinity of telehubs they will spread across the SL mainland, with the probable effects I have outlined elsewhere.

OK, the telehub system is not nice to use, you generally arrive in an overcrowded laggy area which can actually be difficult to move away from (10 seconds for fly or any other command to take effect, then running into huge buildings slowly rezing in your flightpath, changes of direction taking forever to effect then running you into ANOTHER slow rezzing building and so on), and P2P would be a lot faster and simpler to use.

BUT, the downside is that you will probably find huge laggy commercial enterprises popping up al over the place - maybe next to your pride and joy...

My feeling is that some alternative system, or combination of systems needs putting in place. What? I have no idea really...

Commercial/residential zoning?
Commercial taxation with tax breaks for designated areas?
L$10 per jump P2P?
Free P2P only active from an existing telehub (so you have to go to a hub to make a P2P)?

It certainly needs thinking about. And discussing, hopefully with some Linden input/feedback. But somehow the commercial centres have to be kept from spreading randomly across SL.

P2P needs implementing in full. I don't think it's fair that you should cripple my ability to move freely throughout the SL metaverse just because... Just because... I can't see why you want to do that. You suck.

But you CAN move freely through SL - you can fly, walk, run, drive... And for a tiny fee, less than the mooted L$10 P2P charge, you can ROAM anywhere on the mainland...

Incidentally, disagreeing with my conclusions or my ideas is one thing. Descending to personal insults is something else.

Personal insults is something else, you're right. I said that kind of half in jest. But my post does bring about a good point. I want freedom to move around. That's my motive. We all know where I'm coming from. Why are you so against my freedom to move around?

As far as I can tell, a lot of people won't be happy just to get P2P; they want to have this AND have the telehubs destroyed.

coco

It is true. There's a misguided notion that telehubs attract lag and ugliness which is wholly untrue. Travel a few hundred meters away from the hubs and look around. Now travel several hundred meters away from the nearest hub and look around.

That single misconception seems to be the prompt behind the desire to eliminate hubs.

The only thing telehubs have to do with p2p is that, right not, they're the only viable, builtin way to travel around the grid. Ergo we use them to point out the need for p2p. There is no good argument for getting rid of telehubs. Those are smokescreens that anti-p2ps use to lead the competition into discussing wholly irrelated points.

Jarod, the only thing missing from your analogy is the fact that you are able to go anywhere on the WWW that a website owner *wants* you to go.

I think the analogy best supports a land-owner chosen teleport-at-landing-spot system that can be turned off.

While an advocate for P2P, I am not lobbying to destroy telehubs. I believe that both methods of travel are just different expressions of the same transport system, and there are roles for both to play in our developing world.

That being said, I believe that the perception created by the choices people make around telehubs have led to the misconception that telehubs in and of themselves are a problem. The choices to use the area only for malls; the choice to build in such a way to result in avie-traps; the choices to use every single SM for retail and not choosing to retain some open space for flight paths, public use, etc.

When we all have a choice for how we travel the grid, and we are not forced to chose between very slow and traversing a quagmire of retail space, I believe that the true value of retail space surrounding telehubs will become apparent.

Right now, telehubs are like sub-way exits ... with every street vendor in the world camped on the steps. They do that because they know most everyone has to come thru their encampment ... and out of that some profit might be made. When fewer people are riding the subway, there will be less pressure for every merchant to strive to find their place on the steps.

So, I repeat. While I support p2p, Im not advocating that telehubs be eliminated.

I second this. I want to use P2P, I don't care about the telehubs. If I get P2P, I don't care what happens to the telehubs.

My sentiments exactly. I am not anti-telehub - I just hate using them to travel. I don't use them anymore anyway, I use my roam device when I have to. Keep telehubs - add P2P, even for a fee, just please give us the option. It would actually be a nice money sink if it is kept affordable.

Jarod, I am a free speech proponent from waaaay back, but this was just stupid.

Those who stoop to using language obviously intended to inflame solely for the purpose of being inflammatory deserve the flame that comes their way.

You knew better than to use the real expression that you had in mind, so you decided to be "cute" in your offensiveness.

You could have quite easily have made your point by saying, "I disagree with that for the following reason..."

You're within spitting distance of my trolltrap.

P2

Add me in this category. I could not agree more. I am not anti telehub, they just don't seem to serve an effective purpose, based on my use of SL. And I rearely TP anyway. I have a Corsair. I just fly.

A lot of people are of the opinion that telehubs create clusters of commercial enterprises in their vicinity, but that still doesn't change the fact that there are businesses, right now, that are two, three, and four sims away from a telehub. If I couldn't point to two successful businesses in Zoe and Taber that did not rely on telehubs and were established in these sims, I'd agree with you.

Which they already are, or they're buying their own estate sims. This "opinion" people hold, Robin Linden has said, "To be honest, it's not readily apparent that the telehubs have served this function so perhaps it's time to reconsider." The telehubs may all have stores around them, but that does not mean they are the only places people run stores.

How many times has this already happened? That's not problem because of, restrained by, of fixed because of telehubs. That's another topic all together. If it's not a laggy business that gets setup next to me, it's a griefer, a newbie, or someone running a movie theater. This is a problem because of Second Life getting their network architecture design from Colossus: The Forbidden Project or Skynet. But that's a whole 'nother can of fish.

Well, good luck, Pandora; that genie has already been loosed from it's bottle.

Well yeah Jarod, this is what I mean by anit-p2p smokescreen. The discussion is about the need for p2p. It has nothing to do with the goodness or badness of telehubs but the need to implement p2p. A few people keep insistently introducing the bad evilness of those horrid old hellehubs in the simple interest of derailing the conversation and scaring the Lindens into not implementing p2p.

They're being pretty successful at it too.

Oh, I have no doubt this is a losing battle, but the sheer ineffeciency of telehubs offends my senses so much that I tend to go against good sense and start these kinds of threads anyway.

To be clear, I have no hope or false assumptions that we'll ever P2P teleporting. Second Life is not, nor will it ever be, a useful toolkit for expanding the boundaries and paradigms of human thought. My hope is simply to present logical, technical arguments that future, post-SL developers can latch on to and work from.

As I said before - you do have freedom to move around. P2P doesn't exist, yet, except in a limited form such as ROAM.

And I'm definitely not suggesting that your, or anyone else's freedom of movement should be restricted. Just that the possible full implications of scrapping telehubs in favor of P2P should be explored before LL make a decision. And Robin Linden has assured me that a decision on the subject has not yet been arrived at. Though the consensus appears to be that:

'...telehubs. They have played a role in creating commercial and community areas in SL. They've been less successful as an efficient means of transportation.'

Well the bit about 'creating commercial... ...areas' I go along with, though I'll be damned if I can see where 'They have played a role in creating... ...community areas' comes in!

Of further interest may be the following:

'The problem we're looking at is whether or not we need to come up with better transportation options, and I'm not convinced that all solutions require eliminating telehubs' (my emphasis)

So - I'm not trying to restrict your movement.
LL haven't implemented or even designed a P2P system as yet
Robin (at least) isn't convinced that eliminating telehubs is necessarily a good idea

Happier?

I would like to see non-commercial telehubs in place. mainly one in every sim that doesn't have a telehub yet.

Just a small circular prim. That way, you're still keeping the telehubs, you're just adding more, that's all. Additionally this will solve any issues you may have with point2point teleportation, such as teleporting inside a building or such.

This way you're not removing the telehub system or even making it redundant.