Save us from the Lindens

Bovine excrement.

I have this thing on my computer called a Browser, had it for a few years now really. Darndest thing this little gizmo, it let's me go to any webpage in the world at the click of a button. Type in an address, click the button, and I'm there. Zoom. I can go to any page in the world, and yet when I want to talk to friends I go to LiveJournal; when I want to talk about Second Life, I come here; when I want to buy a book, I go to Amazon; and when I need anything else, I go to Google.

The fact that I have the choice to go anywhere doesn't mean that hubs won't appear, the web proves that. Netflix proves that too, just because people don't have to go down to Blockbuster to rent a movie, that doesn't mean that popular movies won't get bought and watched and talked about. In fact, it means that more people might watch the movies. If they can't get to Blockbuster because they're old or infirmed, they can order them online. Likewise, getting rid of telehubs would mean that if my old computer couldn't handle flying across two sims, I could still get to an event.

I agree with the need for point to point teleportation and all the reasons you mentioned. Though I am not sure why you presented them as "Save us from the Lindens" or the reference to Bovine excrement. Robin's post on the subject seemed very open minded and reasonable.



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Telehubs do keep commercial developments within a sim or two of the hub. They do create a sort-of zoning.

You rock Jarod! Bovine excrement indeed! Loved your post and I agree with you.

Yesterday I went to block buster and rented 4 movies. It was nice chatting it up with the manager about what movies are going to come out and when. Information that a sales lady or their web could not provide. He was a kind man and genuine in his opinions of the movies I wanted to rent. The web has its purpose however as I was able to click on the previews of the movies I was interested in seeing. Unfortunately I had not noticed online that one of the movies I wanted to see had sub titles and was a French speaking film. The kind manager however called that to my attention before I rented. Now that's service! Last but not least what I never hear IW or on line was something that made the trip worth it. "Ms... you have a lovely day " and I did.

I agree with you Jarod.

Have a lovely day.

Cat

There are those who would prefer that the Metaverse functioned more like the Web. There are others that prefer it mirrored RL.

Those two viewpoints are diametrically opposed, and it is not possible to please both simultaneously on the same continent.

Possibly the answer, is creating zones that allow for p2p teleport, as an experiment. Private islands perhaps. ROAM is also a very useful tool, that while not perfect, immensely reduces some of the inconvieniences of flying.

My personal feelings are that telehubs have a zoning effect. And many of the frustrations experienced by those who fly often could very well become moot once 2.0 is released.

I would hate to see us fundimentally change the way our world is laid out based upon the state of technology as it exists today in the name of instant gratification.

I don't know if we can't please most everyone at once. Reading the entire post, the poster seems to have come up with at lest one idea at is middle ground.

1) having a favorites list of up to 10 places that we could, sans Telehub, go to

I for one like that idea, if you have a place you visit alot, you could just add it to the list of P2P spots you like. To goto somewhere new you would still have to fly there at least once, or have someone else TP you there, but then you can have the point saved. It is like the web, if I don't know for sure where something is, I may google it and then if I like the site, I will bookmark it and be albe to go bck to it in one step. Same with points in world. If I like a place, I will bookmark it.

It seems to be that will make the most people happy. You still have to fly through a TH one in a while, thus making them still centers where people will gather, but it will allow you to have bookmarked places where you can just go straight to.

yes, dnate, i would love to be able to have more than one "home" i.e. instant teleport spot. It doesn't have to be a huge list, but more than 1 would be a boon. Not only do i own land in multiple spots, but there are a few locations where i regularly travel.

thankfully I have Cat Omega's "Move" to get me there fast lol

Thank you for the link, I really should have added that. As for the title, I used that because it seems stupid -- seems stupid, that's not saying anyone is -- to say that we need to discuss this more, when the system is broken. The post sounds open, I agree; however, the fact that Robin, or any Linden, thinks "this idea needs more discussion and exploration" is preposterous.

Telehubs don't work. People will fly across multiple sims to get to a hub of information, commerce, or community. There's nothing to discuss. Give us point-to-point teleporting.

That's not true. Look, if there are people who want SL to mirror RL, how do they adapt to flying, furries, being able to walk underwater, objects rezzing in this air, etc. If the concept of point-to-point teleporting bothers people, then they don't have to use it.

Yeah, but people can do that just as easily without telehubs. Look at Boardman, Taber, Lusk (ar the Furries still in Lusk?), or any number of themed sims. Telehubs aren't what zone those areas, people do that, the community does that.

This is a poor assumption. Social groups create their own hubs for socialization and commerce. Examples of this are many and varied with Welcome Area congregations being but one quick example.

Control of landing points does not equate to forced points of socialization.

Time for the 'metaverse' to get hip to the notion that telling us where we can land is not a very good way to grow an organic, natural world.

<drums fingers on desk for an hour thinking on it>

"Save us from the Lindens"...

<thinks some more>

<ponders the best way to respond>

...

...

<Walks away shaking his head and muttering about saving the Lindens from us, instead...>

I welcome the implentation of point-to-point teleportation. I think it's going to be a very exciting development for both business and pleasure.

I also welcome people not being unpleasant to Linden Lab, though I think that's about as effective as welcoming Christ's second coming in my own living room. (I don't have a futon or anything for him to crash on. But I'm sure He could afford a hotel or something)

You make it sound like everyone agrees with what you are saying, and it is a closed case. I am one of those that does not want Point to Point teleporting. I think it will ruin SL as we know it. I can't count the number of times that I have found things that I was not looking for because of having to travel. Also, look at how the grid is laid out, it was set up for traveling from a center spot to locations. Roads would become usless, vehicles would also become less wanted (if HAVAK 2 fixes them), and many other far reaching effect would be felt if the telehub system was just taken away. Point to point is not the answer. I think was needs to be really looked at is, what is the question?

PS if you are going to quote someone, use the whole quote, not just the parts that make them look how you want it to.

I *do* like the feeling of having hubs all around, but I'd be willing to part with them and embrace p2p teleporting but a few things do concern me.

#1 We need much better/faster/easier indexing & searching of everything. I really think P2P teleport would discourage the congregation of like minded vendors/builders/etc. Firefox integration will probably take care of this.

#2 Is it technically wise? For some reason I have been under the impression that the sudden appearance of an Avatar into a sim causes a few moments of sim-lag. If I'm wrong then this isn't an issue, but what happens when Event X gets announced and 50 people all zap in instantly?

#3 Telehub land becomes irrelevant. It's obvious why telehub land is coveted for malls/shops. I also believe that something would probably rise to take it's place if p2p were introduced, but what exactly? Which land becomes valuable if all destinations are just a couple clicks away? I'm a little concerned about this one, hence why #1 is so important to me.

My only other caveat is personal. I enjoy TP'ing near a place and then meandering toward it, looking at the landscape as I pass. I would've missed a lot of interesting things with p2p.

You beat me by a minute, curse my need for spellcheck!

But that is my point/fear exactly. I'm afraid a lot of interesting things would start falling through the cracks without encouraging exploration or giving us better search tools.

I am inclined to agree here. I would be quite content with a "favorites" list of TP locations, but would that suit everyone?

The world is already too large to experience everything anyway.

Realistically, not having p2p is like grounding all the airplanes. Then traveling to LA would mean five days in a car or train rather than one day flying. Getting the London would take me a couple of weeks by auto and ship. Everybody would proclaim what a rediculous situation that was when air travel was readily available. But I suppose it would make me explore more of the route traveling across the country and oceans. Does that seem worth it?

Realistically, business districts are separated from residential areas by self-imposed community law. Gas stations exist around roadway intersections, but only if those intersection are perapproved business areas. I live on a corner and am in no danger of a station opening across the street from me. Not because it's not an ideal location, but because the community standard doesn't allow it. The lack of actual zoning in SL can't be replaced by a loosely suggested social engineering ploy.

The theory that telehubs serve as de facto zoning regulartors can be easily proven if the Lindens wish to publish such data as distance from hubs of types of events and FIND listings. They've purported the theory for months but, even in the midst of heavy debates, have never completed and published such a study. Funny that.

Jarod, Robin did admit that the mythical zoning paradigm had apparently collapsed under the weight of long term failure. Let's move forward with this in a positive way for the good of the population and the future of Second Life.

No that is not true at all. What you are asking is for airplanes to drop you off at your location, not at the airport. The airports, which are called "hubs", are like the telehubs in SL. SL is now too big to explore it all. But why have even it explored less with point to point teleports? If point to point does come into play, what is to stop the big laggy mall from coming and setting up shop right next to you little home?

I still want to know what the question is that has the answer being point to point teleports.

Telehub sims sell for US$3500 on the auction. Sims next to a telehub sim sell for US$1500. Sims far from a telehub sell for US$1000.

The reason is that telehubs are defacto commercial zones. There is no equivalent of "zoning" in SL, self-imposed or otherwise. (Except in private islands, but this thread isn't about those.)

I think the telehubs do have the effect of concentrating "businesses" near the telehubs, and minimizing the number of "businesses that are far from telehubs. If you want to make a quiet farm, you can do it more easily than you could if stores and malls were just scattered everywhere.

Why not create temporary teleports that people can rent. For L$30 per week, people could teleport directly to your parcel. That would create a new sink also.

Buster

I like the idea of point-to-point.

But I also like telehubs. Anshe has made a good suggestion in the hotline that telehub land, if telehubs go away, be given something else that will make them retain their value, such as extra prim allotments.

What I really go for is the ability to add another 9 home places. That would pretty much take care of all my needs. I hate flying 400 miles just to get to the same place I go to often.

coco

The telehub experiment is a grand failure, sadly. It tends to clump commercial ventures around them, sure, but then, there's a telehub every 3 sims anyways, so where exactly is the cutoff
?

I am in favor of p2p teleporting not as a way to alleviate the difficult travel options, but as a money sink.

Back in 1.0, there was in fact P2P teleporting; it cost a variable amount of lindens, depending on the distance travelled (going from Slate to Da Boom, for instance, cost much more than going from Stanford to Jessie).

As a newbie, you tended to either find some sort of flight script, or just flew around ahead of time to your destination in order to save money. It's akin to walking to the store instead of driving in order to "save gas" in the real world.

This would still allow for those impatient people to get from point A to point B (for a fee), and also allow for folks who wanted to save money/see the world to do so as a viable alternative.

Furthermore, this would create a definite, huge money sink into the economy, further re-valuing the sinking $L.

And finally, the lindens should keep the old telehub land, tear them down, and offer a gigantic building request for an "information center" design contest, with maybe each old Telehub site designed with a unique design? Tons of community involvement, lots of fun, blah blah blah.

These "information centers" would fulfill any desires the lindens would have for information dissemination; imagine, each telehub location would finally become a local "civic center", with up-to-date information (patch information, downtime info, economic stats, townhall meetings)... especially with HTML coming down the pike. It would be a great way to finally get basic information out from the forums and into the world where it belongs.

We just need something else other than telehubs. I've given up on them as anything useful.

LF

I love Jarod
I love Robin more, but nobody can beat the entertainment value of a good Jarod thread
*fixes popcorn*

This thread is one good example that whenever some complex change is proposed, those who see the advantages of that change are most vocal.

The big whining will come later, when the malls, clubs and businesses invade those remote and peaceful sims that have been spared sofar.

And the long term damage to the feeling of immersion in SL may only be noticed when people abandon it. Walking is dead. Vehicles are dead. Now kill flying also? People clicking the map to teleport 50 meters? What is the point of having a map, geography and all this if people just click FIND and then click TELEPORT? The mental image people have from Second Life will change from a world and landscape to one list in a search tool. It will look like the worlds listing in Active Worlds or like the bookmarks in some Web browser. Second Life as some random cluster of places you teleport to? Then why have sims and map at all? Then just put every land parcel in its own space, like those island sims!

i guess i am in favor of a list of 5- 10 places you can go directly to, one of teh things we all do here after awhile is put blinders on and forget what a magical place this can be! Use the experience of flying to rediscover the magic..to look at builds, and enjoy teh sites, don't
t think of it as a negitive but as a way to remembe rthat this is not rl and enjoy the fantasy a bit

Thank you for putting to words exactly what the uneasy feeling I get is every time this is brought up. I don't want a list of links that I click around on, I like the geographic mentality.
Now that is an idea, but then it might kill the real-estate market. Why have geography at all, just a giant parcel with no annoying neighbors. In fact, no neighbors period. I don't like the picture of SL you've painted here.

I may be in the minority, but I feel like that anything that makes SL more "service based" at the expense of killing community is a bad move long-term.