A question/plea for the women of SL...

nothing personal at all Gwyd All I'm saying is that in the popular vernacular (as opposed to dictionary definitions) I can completely understand why a woman would find being addressed as ma'am or madame derrogatory. Someone could call me buddy or chief, both of which have dandy definitions in websters, but I would take it as demeaning every time. It's a form of defferance that isn't generally earned, so it almost always comes off as sarcastic and reads with the opposite meaning as its original intent. Sometimes understanding what something will mean to the listener is more important than your own understanding of what your intent is when you say it. There are no doubt many women who would find being addressed as ma'am to be a sign of respect, but it implies that the speaker knows that the woman is older and therefore fitting of the title... to assume it without knowing can be an inadvertant insult. Name me one time in your life when some guy you didn't previously know called you buddy or pal or chief and it wasn't a dis? I can understand why women would feel the same way being called a title that assumes a familiarity that doesn't exist.

Thai is not male. Thai is female. As for the rest of your post, .

In England the only persons referred to as Ma'am are the Queen and other members of the Royal Family (not including Prince Charles.)

I am not inbred enough ever to have been addressed as Ma'am, although it would be quite acceptable for you all to address me as Your Majesty.

Darwin, your response is one of a true gentleman.

Viola, I will call you Your Majesty anytime!

And to Gwydeon's employer, please find more work to keep Gwydeon busy and off the SL forums during his slow times at work. Thank you.

I find that is is only seen as discrimination, sexist ect in the US I have traveled extensivly and have become accustomed to hearing Madam. I take it to mean "Lady" as it is ment to mean.

Thank you and dont change a hair for me, not if you care for me

CatC

Viola Bach -Thats Bull pucky, Ma'am and Sir originated in Europe and the terms are NOT reserved for the Roya

LOL@Beryl

And thank you Cathrine, this whole argument is due to the fact that the US society is degrading so far that polight forms of address to an unknown or respected person are taken as derogetory, an affront...

(PS: This helps my voice chat converstaion, you can't tell exactly how some one is intending it unless you can hear their voice )

Misnomer - Thai's acual sex/gender dosn't matter here. And the related info to the other thread should stay in the other thread. Making a statment, and pusing it in peoples faces like so much spam is two different things.

Gwydeon, you are quite correct that the term originated in Europe, but the fact remains that the appellation Ma'am is never used in England except in relation to the Royal Family. The common term here is Madam, not the abbreviation Ma'am.

Oh, and Gwydeon - it was a joke.

Quick quick, somone get in here with the Living Language argument

plz expand on the Living language Gwy......

I cant, its detrimental to my current argument, somone else needs to bring it in.

Side note: Viola correctly me if I'm wrong but didn't Sir originate as a form of address reserved for somone who has been knighted?

Having been raised in the south (Louisiana) I would have to agree with Gwydeon here. Its not meant in a derogatory way. As to why someone would be offended I have no idea. To me its meant as a politeness. At any rate, I could probably think of much more derogatory terms to use if I was trying to insult someone. I'd be fine with being addressed this way. Just my .02 cents

Lets just call everyone sweetie and be done with it

That's "Dame," I believe, Gwydeon.

Ack!

Do not call me "sweetie", unless you are my sweetie! Same goes for "darling", "dear" and "little lady". ACK!

i can't believe this discussion is still going on..and I can't believe i'm contributing to it. But its not a courtesy to address someone in a way they personally do not like. If you intend to be courteous, then recognize that everyone has personal preferences, experiences and cultural references that may be different from yours, but nonetheless valid.

If I tell you I don't like it, and you keep using it, (cause back in your hometown women lap it up like cream), you are not being courteous to me. It's really that simple.

The world is very big, there are all kinds of habitual behaviors, rote courtesies, and unexamined cultural expectations. It's naive to think that what flies in your hometown is going to be received the same everywhere and by everyone.

The true purpose of the courtesy is to show respect. If you can't express respect by using the courtesy, then show it, in this case, by refraining from it.

Add, "hun" to that and we should be set.

I think the advent of Political Correctness has contributed somewhat to the use of the honorific Ma'am's fall from favor. I think PC has taken some things to a riduclous extreme. I had a woman jump all over me for holding a door open for her once. "You wouldn't do that for a MAN would you?", she asked. I replied,"Well. Yes. I do it for everybody." The look of embarrassment on her face was a wonder to behold. Personnaly, I am offended by those who are offended by my attempts to be polite. To go ballistic because someone calls you Ma'am or sir, or opens the door for you implies to me that the person who has been 'offended', is actually looking for an excuse to be confrontational for whatever reason. And to those who may be offended by my use of words such as manhole cover, actress, or referring to a boat as 'she', get a life. Better yet, get a Second Life. You willl be glad you did.

Bel - This is very true, If somone specificly asks you NOT to use some form of address then the rules change. I have been arguing on the behalf of a first meeting / not specificly asked otherwise, sinario.

Beryl - I thought Dame was reserved for Women? (Ok so technicly we should have been using Mr. or Master for the male counter part to Ma'am or Madam)

Devlin - Man of my own heart.

Wow..interesting stuff here..and just to add my own twisted angle.......Its probably safer just to call folks by thier names and leave the more formalized salutations for letter writting because unless you "know" the person gender may not be same as avatar which would always makes folks a tad mad and unless you know where they grew up etc . And as it appears just from these postings there is alot of disagreement as to whether ma'am is fine or not........
So you all can call me whatever your hearts desire....I will take no offense but don't call me late for happy hour.

I had a similar experience once, and yeah I also hold the door open for everyone.
I was told 'You're only doing that because I'm a woman'.

My reply:

"No, the reason I'm doing that is because *I* am a gentleman".

I can totally understand people not wishing to be called 'Ma'am' or other things too - I served in the Aus. Military and I hate it if people call me 'Sir' (an officers title) - I usually make fun of it though : "Nah, don't call me Sir, I work for a living"... But I never understood being read the riot act over a common courtesy that only puts you out.

Siggy.

It is so predictable to see the "I held a door for a woman and she freaked out" story at this point in this thread. I hold doors for people (of both sexes) all the time. I am tickled pink and say "thank you" when people hold doors for me. Who are these evil women who get so weirded out by a simple act of courtesy and where do they live, 'cause I've sure as heck never met one personally.

If a woman asks you not to call her "ma'am," why can't you simply respect her wishes? Courtesy, to me, means respecting another's wishes, even if those wishes clash with one's desire to stubbornly persist in using an archaic and possibly insulting form of address.

To quote Emily Post "Etiquette is having an accute sense of the feelings of those around you - if you have that, it doesn't really matter what fork you use."

This has become somewhat entertaining.

Beryl & Bhodi - As stated previously: If you are ASKED not to call somone something and then you keep doing it, your just being an ass. No argument there.

Darwin - We aim to please... Sir... <snicker>

Um...wow. I can't believe this has gone as far as it has. Seriously is it that big of a deal?? I mean I'm not going to say you don't have a right to decide what someone calls you. Lord call me whatever the hell you want lol. I personally don't take offense when someone says ma'm or madam or sweetie, or dear, or whatever. I live in the south and I'm from England. People seem to do it here because its a way of showing a warmness to a stranger or a way of showing endearment to someone they know well. If you call someone ma'm and they correct you so be it, but if they don't speak up and say anything you assume its okay I'm sure. If someone bites your head off for it that's ridiculous and perhaps they should try and relax a little. Personally the only way I'm going to take offense is if I see that your meaning to offend me.