Minute Men: Is we is or is we ain't?

While I would agree to some degree with your actions, it is evident that you run great risk of injury or death either to yourselves or your quarry. Any military, police or other legitimate law enforcement agencies have adequate training, supervision and communication. Your group has none of these.

This makes it all very clear for me.

Continue enjoying your game of dress up.

You haven't got a clue. You appear to be basing your comment on a marked lack of information filtered through the media to you - unless you are a participant. So, go speculate what we are or are not doing and are or are not capable of somewhere else if you want to appear credible.

We are not "hunters" in the sense that we intend to "bag" anything. We actually, to a person as far as I know, hope that our actions prove that we are wasting our time. Unfortunately, our experience of seeing the borders violated, in person and in numbers, has demonstrated to most of us that that is a pipe dream.

Neither I nor anyone here with me, nor any illegal for that matter, is in any more or less danger than before we were here. I feel that I am in no more nor less danger than when hunting... which this is not in the sense that none of us has any intention of shooting unless fired upon... which none of us actually expects. Some of us, more than you would think if all of your information is based on news reports (which is highly likely), are not carrying weapons. None of the people I patrol with has any rounds chambered - or even loaded - for safety's sake... That is not to say that none of us are not prepared to defend ourselves should that become an appropriate action... there are denizens of the dark out here (including rattlers, cougars and other wildlife that understands loud noises as something to run from --- just like when I go camping). So.... please continue to forecast doom and gloom... death and destruction... with each such statement, your ignorance shows.

In case you have forgotten or didn't know, there is such a thing as citizen's arrest in this country.. then again, we are not going to arrest anyone as long as there are border patrolmen/civil authorities around to do the job --- or --- as long as no US citizens are being endangered by the illegals. We WILL, however, trail, observe and report on the illegals we do see. What's your problem with that?

Truth is you have no idea who I am or how I get my information. Its only an assumption on your part and dead wrong at that.

I have extensive background in law enforcement, fire suppression/investigation, hazardous materials incidents, search and rescue and amateur radio. Your group fits none of these criteria. It is a vigilante group and little else. Much like the Guardian Angels et al, don't expect any sympathy or special attention for your successes or failures.

I think it's probably a pretty good idea for this group of people to be armed, considering that a coyote (not the four-legged kind) would not think twice about violence to save himself since they regularly exploit their cargo or leave them to die in the desert. However, that's not the issue. The possibility of do-gooder activities interfering with the tracking and detection operations and methods of the Border Patrol could be a real problem.

Perhaps an alternative would be spending your resources on a network of hi-tech surveillance equipment and then your organization could sit in an air-conditioned room drinking coffee, watching monitors, instead of putting yourself in harm's way or risking an international incident. It's not as if we don't live in an age of technology. This would save the Border Patrol time and money since they wouldn't have to patrol blanket stretches of land and they could focus their resources on responding to your calls or patrolling unsurveilled areas.

I know that doesn't sound adventurous, but it sure would be a lot more efficient.

Now, as for dealing with the human being that "is" a Minuteman (though my guess is it's just someone trolling for a flamewar):



Ah... if only that bit of sarcasm was correct. See here:
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/9c0aa4ec-a637-11d9-b67b-00000e2511c8.html



The Minutemen were a group during the American Revolution who were ready at notice to fight a foreign military force. Why would you call yourself "minutemen" if it isn't about anti-terrorism? I don't think the Mexicans have any intent of overthrowing our government or causing harm to our citizens.



Whining about whiners? Hypocrisy is blind, apparently. (Hey, just like justice!)

Hypocracy doesn't have a nice rack though.

DOH... extensive experience in fire suppression.. whee! That realy informs you about Minnutemen....

Oh wait.. hazmat stuff.. yeah... that does.. now, wait...

Amatuer radio.. yeah.. that will do it.. ditditditdit ditditdit dit dit dah

And of course, the ubiquitous law enforcement claim.. voila! You trump all with that.. sure you do. Unless and until you "ride along" with us, you haven't got a clue.

I suggest you weed your own garden.. the herbs are getting corrupted - or smoked.

I didn't name the group.. so I won't argue over the name... that would be just pointless.

As for the rest of your diatribe.... read what I have already posted above... You apparently haven't a clue like the majority of the rest of the posters in this thread. Sit back, pat yourself on the back and welcome yourself to the club of the clueless and self-righteous judges of all who do not agree with you.

I haven't met two of us who are here for the exact same reason, nor two who have near-identical backgrounds. So you have no clue what the group membership looks like. You have no clue as to our backgrounds, physical, educational, military or technical capabilities. We are not vigilanties as we have been so ignominiously dubbed.
As I see it, we are "protesting" a lack of action on the Federal goverment's part in the same manner that Green Peace is activist - except we are operating within the law for the purpose of upholding the law.

As for sitting in an air-conditioned remote surveillance control room, well, that's part of the problem, as far as a number of us see it. Only actual feet on the ground provide a deterrent - and we don't hide. If an illegal doesn't cross because we are seen, then we have accomplished one of a number of our goals. One of the myriad problems with remote sensors, my self-righteous friend, is that sensors can be spoofed, mapped, avoided, etc.... While it is possible to make similar claims with respect to human surveillance.. we are talking about low/no-tech illegals with (presumed) no military/evasion background. In case you have forgotten, this is not the "1 kilometer exclusion zone" defining the inner German border during the Cold War. This is US soil we are patrolling and we've sought and received permission to be on the properties. If anyone other than the owner has problems with that, contact the landowner(s). As for triggering "false positives" that the Feds need to check out, well, I can tell you that I ran into some last night, gave them a very specific list of coords/patrol plan that a few of us were making and that should satisfy that problem as far as I am concerned. The individual USCINS/BP guys I have spoken with are not the voices you hear on television. As with any large group of people, I am sure some appreciate the help and some don't.

So.... "want to play a game?" Minutemen have accepted the challenge and hope to provide the locals and the Feds some assistance with a problem both admit is out of control on some level already. You want to stay back in your air-conditioned home and proclaim from on high that we are dangerous, clueless, vigilante or whatever... you're welcome to come join and be educated first hand. Put your body where your mouth and keyboard-blistered fingers are.

Quite the self-portrait... For some reason, I had thought you were better looking than either of those kids IRL. My condolences. You're likely to have a hard life/

Irony escapes you again.

Let me clarify the fallacy for you. Side A is self-righteous because they don't agree with Side B. Side B is self-righteous because they don't agree with Side A.

Representative from Side A calls Side B self-righteous and clueless because only Side A could possibly be clued-in enough to not be self-righteous and clueless.

I still think you are just some random guy trying to start a flame war. I doubt you are part of the Minuteman group. I find it hard to believe that people with training in advanced strategy and organization could possibly be as dense as you. I wouldn't be surprised if you have a box of kleenex close at hand while you're waiting for people to get really angry.

You miss the point. Ever heard of the word protocol? The fire service receives its calls via 911 and other agencies. It does not mean that fire trucks drive around in the streets in the off-chance it may come by a fire. HAZMAT work involves identification of a specific hazard and developing an action plan based NFPA standards, enforced by competent and trained people. Evacuation and zoning are paramount in hazmat incidents to protect citizens.

Search and Rescue, well you missed that entirely. Having worked with the Canadian Coast Guard, I understand that we do not leave the dock until tasked to do so by The Rescue Co-ordination Centre. There is a reason for this. It's a central agency that understands where all of its available assets are, evaluates incidents by severity and tasks the necessary resources when it's required.

Finally, amateur radio operators are often the lifeline in civil emergencies, bridging gaps in infrastructure which are unavailable. This is why they are licensed and not "air pirates".

Judging by the tone of your posts, I have my doubts as to your status as a so called "Minuteman" but rather conclude you have a right wing agenda and only wish to further your objective by demeaning others. I don't accept any of your arguments for one second.

GrayFriar - I agree that we need to secure our borders and as a tax payer I'd rather dedicate the funds specifically to this than to many other things that I see them being budgeted for now.

We should also monitor the job responsibilities assumed by illegal immigrants and either temporarily allow them to fill those positions and return home or enforce the laws we now have against the people who employ them illegally.

Denial of medical care for illegal immigrants presents a unique problem. Personally, It is against my ethics to advocate denial of critical care to anyone needing it. Aside from that though, denial of medical care can result (and has in the past) in a public health crisis when communicable diseases have been untreated and passed to others in the community.

Unless the minutemen have proper training, I am concerned that one or more of them risks being killed or injured needlessly or that an action perpetuated by the minutemen in ignorance of international law or treaty, will result in an international incident with Mexico.

There is a 19 week Academy for Immigration and Border patrol officers that is one of the most demanding training programs in the country. There are courses in Immigration and Nationality Law, Criminal Law and Statutory Authority, Behavioral Science, Intensive Spanish, Border Patrol Operations, Care and Use of Firearms, Physical Training, and Motor Vehicle Operation.

Have any of the minutemen received even one of the following classes?

1. Immigration Officer Academy or Border Patrol Academy

2. Immigration Officer Basic Training Course

3. Border Patrol Basic Training Course

4. Immigration Detention Enforcement Officer Basic Training Course

5. (OTP) Immigration Inspector Basic Training Course

If you want to call attention to the issue and protest, then by all means, put your guns back in your cabinets and get your felt tip markers out, make some signs and line up along the border.

No thorns this time, just genuine concern for the immigrants, the minutemen, the officers that are trained and caught in the middle and the communities surrounding the areas involved.

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Well, Thomas (if you miss the reference, go check the New testament)....Yep. That pretty much sums your attitude up. Isn't it ironic that you need to clarify your own fallacious posting and pawn it off as someone else's reasoning. That you think has yet to be proven.. So, you accuse me of trying to start a flame war when I didn't start this thread but pointed out that none of the other posters have any firsthand knowledge of the Minutemen... or claim to. Instead, innuendo, speculation and conspiracists predict the end of the world, illegal activity by the Minutemen and on and on.

Crawl back into you hole and hide from yourself why don't you? The only thing to fear, in your case, is your own misbegotten foolishness.

And therein lies the error of you arrogance. You ASSUME that your conclusion is correct without any evidence to support it. So... don't accept anything - argument or otherwise - all you accomplish by doing so is demean yourself and any claim to intelligent thought.

SFW? I didn't miss anything. You apparently know how to read and copy descriptions of terms, but lack the ability to paint the picture you want others to see.

Oooh.. the Coast Guard.. and The Canadian CG at that.. big time real world experience DIRECTLY akin to ground patrol on a border... uh huh... I know you Canuck CGers have LOTS of experience protectig your borders from any threats.. Oh wait a sec.. Hasn't the US guarantee the sovereignty of those borders for the last century.. umm, yeah, we have. Check your history books.

Yeah yeah yeah. And what does THAT have to do with the price of tea in China? or with Minutemen?

So... your rant thuds hollowly on the ground as the empty sack of "organizational name dropping" that it is. You have yet to explain why your "knowledge and experience" has any applicability to anything the Minutemen do, have done, or are plannig on doing. You certainly haven't shown any indication of actual knowledge of day to day operations, situational knowledge of either a particularized or general threat, or even applicable law much less anything other than pie in the sky BS.

Like I said, bring it on.. that is, bring your ice cold butt down to the border and find out firsthand what's going on or STFU.

Spineless Rose.... your questions are extremely presumptuous. AS if such things have any applicability to civilians who are not acting in an official law enforcement capacity. Just as Neighborhood Watch groups are not required by law to receive training or ceritify in any analogous classes to what you listed, there is no reason for us to do so. We have a right to walk on private land that we have specific permission to patrol on as well as public lands that are not "restricted". As such, your insinuation that we are doing something wrong is as emptyheaded as your "genuine concern for immigrants".

Let me clarify this for you. I have no personal axe to grind against any individual illegal. I do not believe they are entitled to the label "immigrant" as that grants them social, and possibly legal status as one intending and authorized to stay here. Guess what.. I don't intend for them to stay.

You obviously do NOT follow the news closely - part of our group assisted an illegal in obtaining medical help yesterday. And then made sure that the USCINS/BP took the guy into custody AS AN ILLEGAL. That is, we contacted the authorities and then followed him until they arrived and took him into custody. We never impeded his movement nor touched him... though he never even thanked us for the medical assist.

There are no "job responsibilities assumed by illegals" that I do not feel are not better taken over by US citizens or legal residents --- but there you attempt to derail the thread and move it in another direction... something I refuse to engage in discussing.

You want to rant about the Minutemen.. I'll correct your misconceptions from my own firsthand knowledge. You want to discuss something else.. you won't hear from me.

Your concern that one of us is killd of injured needlessly is "oh so nice" but I don't truly believe you are serious.. though I grant I could be wrong. I just don't think so because of the qualifier you addded to your "concern" - "that one or more of them risks being killed or injured needlessly or that an action perpetuated by the minutemen in ignorance of international law or treaty, will result in an international incident with Mexico." That is a thinly veiled accusatory prediction against our group. So, you go ahead and talk out both sides of your mouth and slant things to the left as far as you think you can.

Unless I am mistaken, I am the only Minuteman on this forum. The rest of you appear to me to be posers, philosophers and activists with axes to grind and political agends to promote. My goal is simply to tell the truth about a group of which I am part...

Great thread....and you are all much more level headed than me. I'd be all for screaming "PULL" whenever an illegal crossed the border and letting the m-men blast away, but I'm evil like that (kidding...sorta)....and I just payed 2 grand in taxes, and a $200.00 deductable for 3 stitches in my hand (on top of the ridiculous amount I already pay for insurance). I should have left my wallet at home and claimed my name was Juan Hernandez from TJ...the hospital still would have had to treat me.

[/URL]Was that the sound of the elastic in your underwear separating?

Indeed - most cities have neighborhood watches but few of them allow the residents to simply walk around the neighborhood carrying loaded weapons. Most states have laws against walking down the street with a loaded hunting rifle and hand guns generally require a concealed weapons permit.



Glad your group was actually able to help someone - but medical assistance doesn’t require a gun does it? I don't object to the minutemen being at the border, I object to them being there with loaded firearms in professed official capacity.



I did not make a prediction, I identified a possibility. I'm not pyschic, I don't make predictions. I'm not a minuteman, but I have been trained in law enforcement and for a time worked as a law enforcement officer. My comments are based both on the training and experience that I received in that capacity.

I have no objection to the private ownership of fire arms, provided people have proper training but that is not the issue here. The issue is a group of people, forming a militia, armed and untrained patroling a border. You not only endanger yourself, and those attempting to cross the border but you also endanger the trained law enforcement officers who serve the area in an official capacity.


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And to be an asshole to anyone who disagrees with you.

You're not going to convince anyone you are really a Minuteman by criticizing them for accusing you of not being one. That's called "Circular reasoning." The proof of a primary assumption is not the assumption itself.

The proof of my hypothesis that you are not who you say you are is the fact that you can't answer anyone's legitimate accusations regarding your knowledge of organizational tactics, or anything else for that matter, without relying on an arrogant assertion that hypothesis A is proof of hypothesis A. You don't know what you are talking about and you are not a Minuteman. Whenever anyone says something that is valid, you completely ignore it or engage in name-calling.

You've been found out, kid. I know you're just playing a game and it's obvious to everyone reading this board. I don't believe that a Minuteman would be as stupid as you are pretending to be. However, I would welcome it if you could prove me wrong and prove that you really are that stupid.

More proof that Grayfriar is just here to engage in masturbation of his ego. Otherwise, he wouldn't address people as "Spineless" just because they challenge his authority as supreme sage.

Back in Texas, we call that pickin' a fight-- and that has nothing to do with "telling the truth."

I agree, GreyFriar is no Minuteman. His posts are clearly a vent of his contempt for lawfulness and anyone that disagrees with him. He fools no one.

And this from the not so subtle insulter of many.... as you said above.. OWNED