Minute Men: Is we is or is we ain't?

And I'm not talking about a young man's propensity for premature ejaculation here, I'm talking about the everyman's army working the borders of a country that claims some form of propinquity to the US.

Personal thoughts aside my mind drifted to the ponderings of Sinclair Lewis and his accounts of the post New Deal happenings in It Can't Happen Here:

This is a fictional account yet quite appropriate when questioning the validity of a citizen army and it's use in the US. If you turn in your well tanned neighbor for bringing home a U-haul full of unknown objects (surely they are chemical weapons and they do all drive cadilacs so they must be terrorists) then you are a patriot. Call the TIPS line, turn coat on a neighbor, tis the American way. It is patriotic to wage war against a neighbor right, turn 'em over to the feds? So long as it doesn't occur at the border, cause then it is just vigilanteism. We can't have that now can we?

After perusing that peice for a bit I turned my brain to less fluffy literature mostly the 2nd ammendment of the constitution which reads:



Now, there has been beaucoup debate over whether the phrase "well regulated Militia" is to be considered the Reserves/ National Gaurdsmen or a just grouping of citizens (aka Patriot Soldiers) fighting for a similar cause. Most common folk would agree that militiamen and minutemen (who came together to fight during the revolution) are patriot or ununiformed soldiers who though lacking in uniform should be fighting for the preservation of and adherance to constitutional laws and rights under attack by a foe either foreign or domestic. Does this include protection of the borders from illegal immigrants who undoubtably tax the welfare system, whore contracts for little profit and send a vast majority of their profits back to the country of their origin? Should this volunteer army of ununiformed border police be considered vigilante fighters, protectors of the American Way or something in between.

The question remains, should we, the people subject and benifactor of the laws of the constitution, make the borders our charge? Should we light upon the humble masses of impoverished souls coming to pick our fruit and hang our drywall? In a moral world where we all share equally our resources, I say no. Why, you ask (if you are still reading this drivel)? Because I should be able to open a barbeque sandwich stand in Mexico smack in front of the Western Union money wiring center without being a citizen of Mexico. I should be able to live there tax free and without supporting the largesse of the local gov-co. That is my dream. But the world isn't a fairyland of dreams and pixey dust now is it.

In the real and oft amoral world life isn't so simple. I would be forced to adhere to the laws of the land in Mexico regardless of the archaic din. When folks decide to illegally cross the border, they too should be subject to the American law. And what if the enforcement of those laws falls in the hands of minutemen, so be it. It is about damned time a few Americans stood for something, even if that something is simply protecting our border with Mexico from alien intruders. I have null a problem with someone trying to become a US citizen, in fact I wish more people would actually embrace the constitution and call it their own including the born and bred nationals. But to start off on an illegal foot is grim news for everyone involved.

Now onto something completely different (well sorta).

So what does Bush, the invader of all worlds different than his own, decide to do? What else, call 'em vigilantes. Yes sir that is what they are now. Vigilante, a member of an unauthorized group (we already read that this group is authorized by the US constitution) who look out for the interest of their group which is threatened by another party, of course we all know how kindred a spirits are Bush and ole Webster. Hmmm...well lemme see he was official I suppose when he decided to use force in Iraq to protect that which wasn't a clear threat but that which is a threat (the transport of drugs, thugs and terrorist across the far too open border between Mexico and the US) is to be left in the hands of those who make over minimum wage and have little care for the plight of the American construction worker/peach picker.

Maybe he should be glad that those vehemently protecting our borders are not vehemently protecting our constitutional rights....

Edit: Ahh, so it was just a fictional story. (but I believed it was real for a bit!)

Lou Dobbs is the only one I can find who gives them more than a 10 second sound bite.

I never understood why there was so much focus on airplane security but not on the borders.

I stated the literature was fluffy (created) and only used it as an example that the fear of a citizen army is not a new deal. All great lies are peppered with the truth. Though the "facts" are fallacious the sentiment is quite real.

Nice post Isis. I have always admired the Americn ideal that the people have a right to bear arms as a safeguard against tyranny and also the diy attitude that, while present in many countries, also seems to form part of what is best in American culture. I agee that if the government is not enforcing it's own laws and it is percieved that this is damaging the community or country then it is a positive thing for citizens to lend a helping hand.

However, choosing to enforce one law does not give those citizens the right to breaks others while doing so and I feel that the minutemen situation is one where the temptation to do so might be quite high. There is quite an indepth debate between the pro and anti minutemen camps on today's Democracy Now http://www.democracynow.org/ in which the minutemen representative claims that they are only there to 'observe and report' while his opposing number claims that there have been numerous reports of assault and inhumane treatment of illegal aliens. I don't have any problem at all with the 'observe and report' scenario but obviously taking things farther by trying to forcibly detain or turn back the border jumpers will lead to violence.

My impression is that the minutemen routinely carry guns while on patrol and I would question why this is necessary. Why the need to break out guns for every little thing? Desperate Mexicans are not grizzly bears or enraged moose. If non-violent observation is indeed the minutemen's objective then I don't think they are appropriate for this situation. I very much doubt that these Mexicans come prepared to shoot their way across the border and if this is the case then what is the pupose of carrying guns? To shoot them in the back if they try and run away? As far as I know it is illegal for a private citizen to detain anyone at gunpoint and if a border jumper is intercepted and is unwilling to peacefully wait for the authorities then it seems to me that the only legal option would be to simply follow them and report their position.

Anytime you have a group of [untrained] guys that look like this, armed to the teeth and wearing camouflage, you are bound to have problems.

While I believe that the concept of minutemen is a good one if we are ever invaded, people who are trying to cross our border for economic reasons do not constitute an invasion. If they did, there would be a lot of Irish and Italian people who would have been shot as their ships docked on Ellis Island.

By endorsing this and not insisting that if they are going to help secure our borders that they do so unarmed, we have essentially handed them a license to kill Mexican people. We may as well allow them to wear their prefered uniform - a pointed hood and white robe.

Well I'm not the most anti-aliased av in the grid, what can I say. I read it too quick the first time and ran down to my history buff friend ranting about president Windrip and he had no clue what I was talking about. :/

Your points are pretty scary though. I hope the group stays small and continues to advocate non-violence just in case the media hype causes all kinda of other minutemen groups to form everywhere...

What's funny is that during the cold war, we lived in fear of Russian invasion. Now, we think it's just swell that we are being invaded by literally millions of illegal aliens every year, and politicians on both red and blue think it's just bully.

I'm not surprised people are going out to defend our country from invaders. Of course, as pointed out, this should be done by the US government, by trained professionals.

Keep in mind that there's armed smugglers (smuggling drugs and/or people) in the area too, plus (alleged) threats from gang members. If I was crazy enough to join the Minutemen project, I'd want something for my own protection too.
From what I've heard, the minutemen are not planning to threaten or detain any immigrants at gunpoint. The plan is to report anyone they spot to the authorities and let them take care of the situation.
That being said, I have mixed feelings about illegal imagration. While it provides work opportunities to desperate people who have loved ones to take care of, it also leads to the same people being grossly exploited. We (Americans) pat ourselves on the back with our humane working conditions (a minimum wage, limited work week, extra pay for overtime and all the trimmings), yet turn a blind eye to an underclass who works longer hours, for less money, and under terrible conditions. Anyone who complains about being mistreated risks getting deported. That's messed up.

Well, you can all bitch and whine and pontificate and cry about it all you want.

I AM a Minuteman. Last night we reported 32 illegals crossing the border and as a result 50 (we missed 18 in the dark) were rounded up by the Border Patrol.

Anyone want to argue with those numbers, go right ahead. I will sleep quite well tonight.

(Oh... comments from the peanut gallery of non-US citizens haunting these forums will be warmly discarded for the same reason that my surprise at being asked for a passport/visa when entering your countries is laughed at.)

I will argue with those numbers.

a) I think it is a crock.
b) You provide no baseline information.

How many illegals are normally captured crossing the border? What real impact is the minuteman militia having?


This "sentence" only makes sense to insane people and ferrets.

Does anyone have a ferret that can also speak english? Or a ferret who speaks spanish and a spanish to english translator?

I've been following this project for awhile now and was curious as to how it would go over. I am all for legal immigration of peoples around the world. That is what this country was forged from.

I do however understand why people flood the borders, for a mexican worker making even 3 dollars an hour for a 40 hour week he can take that money back home weekly and see his family WELL provided for. Were he to stay home he would spend his week working for enough money to maybe buy a few rolls of toilet paper and 1-2 meals for his family. Most of us cannot fathom that or even allow it into our narrow way of thinking, but that is the hard truth for many countries out there, some of these situations exist due simply to poor U.S. Foreign policy and no other reason at all.

I truly sympathize with the plight of these people. The flooding of our borders is not the answer.

Someone mentioned the U.S. exploiting illegal immigrants for labor when they come here, sweetheart, open your eyes. These people do not need to come here for us to exploit them. We and many other countries exploit them right at home in their own backyards.

The last corp. I worked for had a plant in Temola Mexico. The pay for the Mexican workers and even the Mexican supervisors was horrific, but since there are no wage protections for these people big companies build there knowing how easy it is to exploit the people which in turn gives the corp. a fatter profit margin. Many of the people there slept in cardboard boxes right outside the gates and ate their meals in the company cafeteria while working their shifts.

There is no easy solution but with an estimated several hundred thousand people crossing our borders a week, something has to be done. The next guy across could be carrying vials of ebola headed to your hometown or worse.

There is no easy answer but I think responsible citizens (myself included) need to wake up and realize that we need to be putting those BILLIONS of dollars being spend by D.C. into projects here at home instead of paving the way for Wal-Mart in Iraq. We need to be increasing border patrol, funding higher education budgets instead of cutting them year after year and working up plans for our elderly and retiring citizens so they aren't forced with decisions like paying for ridiculously overpriced medication or paying rent.

Here are two that were caught trying to sneek over the border. They're Bi-Lingual.

Here is the reason the minutemen organizers decided to allow REGISTERED and LICENSED volunteers carry their personal handguns while on patrol. I would also like to point out from what I have read a large percentage of the volunteer force is made up of retired military personnel.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050328-125306-7868r.htm

While following the minuteman project over the last several months I have and still am curious to see what effect if any it will have, if only decreasing the amount of drug and human trafficking for a couple weeks and making people aware of the mass amount of peoples illegally crossing our border, I think it will have served its purpose.

Again, I am all for legal immigration and understand why many cross illegally, but to not see this as a matter of national security would be incredibly short sighted because it is not simply Mexican and Latin American peoples trying to cross these borders. A couple weeks ago in Arizona I believe it was, 5 middle eastern men were detained and deported to Nigeria as I recall for possible ties to terrorist cells.

I was in Arizona this last weekend getting ready to move there in a month; NPR ran a story on them that was fairly in-depth. I think it was during "Morning Edition" on Monday morning, try searching npr.org for the archived version.

Viewing the link you posted is even further reason to not allow untrained civilians to guard our borders. Not only is their potential to mistake an innocent person just trying to make a better living for their family for an armed drug dealer but their is a lot of potential for unnecessary violence if this group of minutemen is targeted by a gang.

Military training from the Vietnam or even subsequent eras does not constitute or even come close to the real training that immigration officers receive.

I am all for putting professional, trained and sworn officers at the border. We need control of the border regardless of how we decide to handle immigration. The billions that have been ripped off by companies like Haliburton from the American treasury would have been much better spent shoring up our borders.

While the minutemen have called the need for securing the border to the attention of state and federal officials - beyond that it is an extreme risk for little pay back. The worst possible scenario would be one where the gangs declare war on the minutemen. Innocent people always get in the way of things like this, both Mexican and American.

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Of course you will argue wit it. I goes against your lliberal ideology as evidenced all over the forums since you first posted in them.

The only crock I see is your post - your opinion that something is a "crock"is pointless and not evidence of anything other than your own perspective. I reported what I was personally involved in last night. As for baseline information, go check out any baseball park - either first or thir base line.. see if they have information there. You want other information on illegal immigration and border penetration --- or Minuteman activity, go find it yourself. I have knowledge of my own activities and a right to mention them. That's not opinion - that's fact.

As far as you not understanding a particular sentence, well, apparently, you have not learned to parse.... It's not my responsibility that you cannot "do the sum" as they sang in Babes in Toyland. I will suggest that you read it again slowly and you MIGHT be able to comprehend... but probably not, based on the drivel you spew regularly all over the forums and in particular, in your dubious response to my post.

Where you got your "people and ferrets" idea, I couldn't care less. It obviously has "insult" written all over it.. and thus belies any claim on your part to a real desire for information, discussion or debate. So, come on down and be a Minuteman with me sometime. Let's see if you can handle a night patrol.

First, Jack I am sooo sorry. I truely didn't mean that as a slight against you. I was more giving myself the ole' head thud and duhhh for not being more exact with my wording.

As for the Patriot soldiers aka Minutemen, I am of mixed feelings on the subject. On one platter, I see the only thing between a border crosser and the proud blue blooded protector of the minimum wage being a sweaty finger on the hair trigger of a mini 14 poised to shoot if someone sneaks up on him after his 2 gallon coffee intake and a long night of pissing in the wind.

On the other serving dish, I see Americans finally getting off of their asses and using their constitution to protect themselves and their homeland from those who, for whatever reason, decide that illegal immigration is the best way to eat from the bread basket without having to pay the baker. Not to mention they can send a hefty load of dough back home via the wonders of electronic wire transfer without a tax being levied and with a pretty nice little exchange rate.

Wouldn't it be grand if we could all do that. In fact let us all move to Mexico, illegally cross the border, leave our families to stand in line once a week for nine months out of the year and get caught by Migra right before Cousin Ceasar's birthday bash for our free bus ticket home and a 3 month vacation which is about enough time to find a new identity.

Now that all that is off my chest, let us talk about what our loving and duty driven politico's are doing about the matter. After giving the Minutemen border commandos a good tongue lashing, our dear president and all his men sat around, obviously smoking some Elvis, and devised this ingenious plan: "Dude, I know, let's just make everyone show a passport at the borders", "Righteous, more laws! That is so what we need. Well that and another bag of cheesy poofs. Stop Bogarting man, do ya know how hard it will be to get this shit once this law is passed." (this is a fictional account as I am not nor will I ever be invited into the inner sanctum known as the oval office)

Please correct me if I am wrong, but, these illegals are not exactly riding through the border on a Vespa waiving ID's at the patrol last time I checked. So how, in the name of all that is unholy, will a passport checkpoint stop illegal entry into the US when the border patrol is already taxed to the point of not being able to uhh patrol the border? I dunno. Isn't it already ILLEGAL for ILLEGALs to come across the border ILLEGALLY while it is LEGAL for LEGALS to cross the border LEGALLY?

Sorry Buddy George, that ain't gonna cut it. I don't care if you are a pansy waist leotard wearing pixy of a liberal or an inbred snake handling cow tipping conservative with an IQ of 71, there is a problem with creating laws to cover laws which are not being enforced when the law does absolutely nothing to solve the problem and only makes it more difficult for law abiding citizens and immigrants to move freely on this continent. So screw the extra bullshit law writing and get to the brass tacks: Stop slapping companies on the wrist for hiring illegals and put some stiff penalties on those who want cheap labor at the expense of the legal immigrants and the entire population of the US, Stop allowing folks to stay in the US on expired visas and finally stop rewarding the illegals with welfare, foodstamps, free medical care and a trip back home when they break the law (which was done when they stepped foot across the line in the first place).

Of course.

To those who wish to compare the insurgence of illegal immigrants of today with the flooding of immigrants onto Ellis Island in the days of yore are doing an severe injustice to those who realized their American dream by braving the seas to stand face to face with lady liberty. Those who came to this country wanted to become American. They passed through the legal processes required. They were not sneaking in over the border and then sending their money home. The monies they did save and send home was most often used to bring any remaining family members to the US. Comparing those brave souls who built the very foundations of this country to the illegals who often have little or no desire to become a legal American is damned insulting.

Are all illegals entering the US with dubious intent? Likely not. Is having an alias or falsifying government documents in order to obtain a fallacious ID illegal? Yes. Would I go to jail for commiting that crime? Yes. Should they be jailed for comitting that crime? Yes. If I illegally cross the border of any other country, including Mexico, would I be arrested? Yes. If a plane load of Afghanis arrived at JFK with false ID's and no passports looking for stucco jobs would you feel the same or would you expect the gov-co to friggin do something about it? If you say no to that one, I'm sorry but I don't believe ya.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=649584&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

Moron fuckwads. I'm totally surprised something like this would happen.

If you happen to see Bryan Barton while playing dressup at the border, give him a hearty fuck off from me.

I don't think anyone was saying that the actions of the Minutemen wasn't doomed to get out of control real quick like. But it seems that the greatest fear of gov-co is that the other side of the border will begin to act in a retaliatory fashion in response to the patrols. Emigration is a big business that makes a few dudes alot of cash. Although a few rednecks camping out at the border in no way solves the problems neither does covering it with a crack load of none to witty fuckyouisms. So Nee what is your solution to the ordeal or do you not see the softness of the borders as an ordeal?

Just because I do not support the efforts of the minutemen does not in any way mean I think the borders should be soft. These people voted for Bush & Co. and they got exactly what they asked for.

When you decide to vote based on lies and intimidation you get what you deserve.

How do I propose to fix these problems? Well a good start would be for those that really have a problem to speak up to their government and let them know that $420 million in budget cuts to state and local funding for homeland security is unacceptable.

I mean really. People asked for it. People got it. Now they want to play dressup and harass people because they are unhappy with their own decisions?

Well tough titty.


Sometimes a fuckyouism is the appropriate response.

At least it wasn't a 911ism or a Saddam is Evilism that got us here in the first (fucking) place.

Hey, I've got an idea. Maybe instead of implying that the people crossing the border are carrying bombs into the US, we can tell Bush & Co. that we're pretty sure that them mexicans are walking around with barrels of oil strapped to their backs.

Then we could have operation Enduring Border Patrol to help protect us from those evil illegal immigrants. The best part is that it will completely pay for itself with all the revenue generated by confiscating all those barrels of oil strapped to their back before we deport them.

I know it sounds crazy, but I have a feeling it might just work. I am concerned that this type of activity on home soil may cause some discomfort for the extremely wealthy. To counteract this we should give them a huge tax cut. It's the least we can do for their piece of mind.

What would Minutemen think about a vigilante group being formed to hunt them? Afterall, they are a clandestine group. Using clandestine means to curb clandestine means leads to nothing but trouble.

Weedy.. ain't a damn thing clandestine about Minutemen - other than that we patrol in the hours of darkness.

Neehai... why even consider this being focused as a result of 9/11. It's an old issue. The illegal immgration "gravy train" of open borders has been a concern for years.. decades even. The only reason I didn't "get involved" before is one person cannot patrol the entire border alone. With a number of us... we can cover an area - thereby assiting border patrolmen in terms of their being overworked with too few patrolmen to adequately do the assigned job. As for your ridiculous budget reference.... well, if the lunatic left didn't want to do stuff like grant illegals rights to our medical and educational facilities, maybe the deficit that the Democrats ran up from way back in the Depression era days would no longer still be haunting us (recent claims that there was a short period of no deficit prior to going into Iraq this time tothe contrary)...

The issue is not simply anti-terrorist. In my case, I harbor no fantasies that Minutemen I am with are stopping terrorists from crossing the border --- at least no more and no less than we are helping to minimize any other crossings by any other illegals.

Get off the soapbox for a while and think before you scream you little typing fingers hoarse. Your "record" is scratched and you keep playing the same old tune 0 whine, bitch, cry, hypothesize conspiracies and foretell the end of the world. It's getting real old.