Einstein believe in intelligent design
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Logan Bauer
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12-07-2005 08:52
From: Kevn Klein I try to imagine what it must feel like to be the creator of all that is, being questioned by my creations.
As far as suffering is concerned, does it seem one can understand and appreciate the opposite of suffering without having suffered?
Could it be God has a bigger picture that we as paint drops can't comprehend, as we can't understand the mind and thoughts of the artist from the perspective of the paint? Should the paint tell the artist how to apply the paint to the canvas? I agree with everything you say here. It's a large piece of why I consider God vastly unknowable - we can't rap our human minds around something "bigger" than us, outside of our sphere of understanding. |
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Aria Abattoir
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12-07-2005 09:03
I'd just like to add that Todd McFarlane is a jackass. |
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Jake Reitveld
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12-07-2005 09:17
Einstien belived in god, in the divine. Not intelligent design. Intelligent desing postulates that life on earth was created by a master plan and not the process of natural selection, as posutalted by evolution.
Einstien would have found god's work in the perfection of the mechanism of evolution, as he found god's hand in his ordered vision of the universe. Yes Einstien was a spiritual man (not religious) but he would abhor, I think, the desecration of science that is the theor of intelligent design.
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Dark Korvin
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12-07-2005 09:21
From: Kevn Klein Why shouldn't humans be special to their creator? After all, humans are the peak of creation, the only physical creation that can choose between good and evil and understand the concept of God. My dog can choose between good and evil, and I act as her patriarch/guardian. She knows if she doesn't do the right thing of ringing the bell hanging on the doorknob to tell me to let her out that she will do the wrong thing of using the carpet as an indoor toilet. She knows if she does right, this 6'0" tall teddy bear will talk soothingly, pet her, give her treats. She know if she does wrong this 6'0" monster is going to be loud, scary, pulling her into the laundry room by her collar and giving her time to think about what she did. I'd say she has done quite well at figuring out good from bad. Now why does God not train us in a similar reasonable way. We don't get punished when we do bad, and we don't get rewarded when we do good. On top of that, we are supposed to have faith in a man that died in order to be on his good side no matter how much bad we did. God doesn't seem much like a fatherly figure to me, nor does he seem like someone wanting to train us into "righteousness." Sorry, just the way I feel. I also don't think animals are as incomplete as we think they are. They have expressions of their emotions if you learn to read them. They have communication. Try walking around birds with tiny brains whistling a repeating high pitch, and see how even birds 50 meters away fly away knowing there is danger. They have memories. They can learn a code of right and wrong. Just because you can't see into their heads to whether they have hopes, dreams, worries, non-instinct decisions doesn't mean they don't. I really don't think we are much different than animals. The humans just have a more developed brain, but that alone doesn't make them the peak. How do you know nothing better is yet to come. I sure hope something better will wipe humans out some day. |
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Dianne Mechanique
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12-07-2005 09:34
From: blaze Spinnaker One has to wonder though, why God couldn't have intelligently created the evolutionary process.
Why do humans have some kind of sacred place in God's kingdom?
That's just more earth-is-the-center-of-the-universe type nonsense. Aside from the grammatical mistakes which I so politely wont mention...  There is no way that Einstein used a word like "lame." I seriously doubt your quote. I think you are paraphrasing and confabulating here and most of this garbled quote seems to be talking about truth and reason in the platonic sense, not the christian religious sense anyway. |
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Chip Midnight
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12-07-2005 10:08
From: Cocoanut Koala I like that there are few atheists in foxholes. That's a hugely offensive cliche. Please stop using it unless you're specifically trying to be a bigot.
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Chip Midnight
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12-07-2005 10:14
t was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
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Zuzu Fassbinder
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12-07-2005 10:40
A necromancer has been here.
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Kevn Klein
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12-07-2005 10:42
[/color]
Albert Einstein's Words on Spirituality and Religion. . .
(The following quotes are taken from The Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press unless otherwise noted)
"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God."
(The following is from Einstein and Religion by Max Jammer, Princeton University Press)
"I'm not an atheist, and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations."
"I don't try to imagine a God; it suffices to stand in awe of the structure of the world, insofar as it allows our inadequate senses to appreciate it."
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own - a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. It is enough for me to contemplate the mystery of conscious life perpetuating itself through all eternity, to reflect upon the marvelous structure of the universe which we can dimly perceive and to try humbly to comprehend even an infinitesimal part of the intelligence manifested in Nature."
"The scientist is possessed by the sense of universal causation. His religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that , compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection."
". . . In spite of all this, I don't let a single opportunity pass unheeded, nor have I lost my sense of humor. When God created the ass he gave him a thick skin." Einstein: The Life and Times by Ronald W. Clark, Avon Books.
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Chip Midnight
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12-07-2005 10:55
Kevn, you do realise (I hope) that Einstein is using the god concept allegorically, right?
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Vivianne Draper
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12-07-2005 11:07
From: blaze Spinnaker One has to wonder though, why God couldn't have intelligently created the evolutionary process.
Why do humans have some kind of sacred place in God's kingdom?
That's just more earth-is-the-center-of-the-universe type nonsense. Sure god (I assume you refer to Yahweh) could have created the universe. He didn't do it in 6K years though and if he did do it, we have no scientific proof that a) he exists and b) he did. Therefore this would be mythology -- not science. |
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Siro Mfume
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12-07-2005 11:15
From: Kevn Klein I read (present tense) it, I never try to prove it to others. "it" being the bible, and thus what it contains. Here you are at it again...  |
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Kevn Klein
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12-07-2005 11:23
From: Chip Midnight Kevn, you do realise (I hope) that Einstein is using the god concept allegorically, right? What do you make of his insistence he is not an atheist? And wouldn't the opposite of atheist by theist? |
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Kevn Klein
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12-07-2005 11:28
From: Siro Mfume "it" being the bible, and thus what it contains. Here you are at it again... I'm surely not trying to prove anything about the Bible. This thread doesn't concern the Bible. |
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Siro Mfume
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12-07-2005 11:31
From: Kevn Klein I'm surely not trying to prove anything about the Bible. This thread doesn't concern the Bible. I could have sworn the bible covered that whole god thing you keep mentioning, oh well I guess not. |
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Chip Midnight
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12-07-2005 11:32
From: Kevn Klein What do you make of his insistence he is not an atheist? And wouldn't the opposite of atheist by theist? No. It might make him a Deist, but more likely he was an agnostic (which as we've discussed before at length is still an atheistic position), but it's hard to tell with Einstein. He spoke to his audience and tended to put things in terms they would understand. He (and his theory of relativity) were also under heavy assault by religious people and so he labored to be diplomatic. From: someone Just over a century ago, near the beginning of his intellectual life, the young Albert Einstein became a skeptic. He states so on the first page of his Autobiographical Notes (1949, pp. 3-5): "Thus I came--despite the fact I was the son of entirely irreligious (Jewish) parents--to a deep religiosity, which, however, found an abrupt ending at the age of 12. Through the reading of popular scientific books I soon reached the conviction that much in the stories of the Bible could not be true. The consequence was a positively fanatic [orgy of] freethinking coupled with the impression that youth is intentionally being deceived...Suspicion against every kind of authority grew out of this experience, a skeptical attitude... has never left me..." We all know Albert Einstein as the most famous scientist of the 20th century, and many know him as a great humanist. Some have also viewed him as religious. Indeed, in Einstein's writings there is well-known reference to God and discussion of religion (1949, 1954). Although Einstein stated he was religious and that he believed in God, it was in his own specialized sense that he used these terms. Many are aware that Einstein was not religious in the conventional sense, but it will come as a surprise to some to learn that Einstein clearly identified himself as an atheist and as an agnostic. If one understands how Einstein used the terms religion, God, atheism, and agnosticism, it is clear that he was consistent in his beliefs. Part of the popular picture of Einstein's God and religion comes from his well-known statements, such as: "God is cunning but He is not malicious." Also: "God is subtle but he is not bloody-minded." Or: "God is slick, but he ain't mean." (1946) "God does not play dice."On many occasions.) "I want to know how God created the world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."Unknown date.) It is easy to see how some got the idea that Einstein was expressing a close relationship with a personal god, but it is more accurate to say he was simply expressing his ideas and beliefs about the universe. Einstein's "belief" in Spinoza's God is one of his most widely quoted statements. But quoted out of context, like so many of these statements, it is misleading at best. It all started when Boston's Cardinal O'Connel attacked Einstein and the General Theory of Relativity and warned the youth that the theory "cloaked the ghastly apparition of atheism" and "befogged speculation, producing universal doubt about God and His creation"Clark, 1971, 413-414). Einstein had already experienced heavier duty attacks against his theory in the form of anti-Semitic mass meetings in Germany, and he initially ignored the Cardinal's attack. Shortly thereafter though, on April 24, 1929, Rabbi Herbert Goldstein of New York cabled Einstein to ask: "Do you believe in God?"Sommerfeld, 1949, 103). Einstein's return message is the famous statement: "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings" 103). The Rabbi, who was intent on defending Einstein against the Cardinal, interpreted Einstein's statement in his own way when writing: "Spinoza, who is called the God-intoxicated man, and who saw God manifest in all nature, certainly could not be called an atheist. Furthermore, Einstein points to a unity. Einstein's theory if carried out to its logical conclusion would bring to mankind a scientific formula for monotheism. He does away with all thought of dualism or pluralism. There can be no room for any aspect of polytheism. This latter thought may have caused the Cardinal to speak out. Let us call a spade a spade"Clark, 1971, 414). Both the Rabbi and the Cardinal would have done well to note Einstein's remark, of 1921, to Archbishop Davidson in a similar context about science: "It makes no difference. It is purely abstract science"413). The American physicist Steven Weinberg (1992), in critiquing Einstein's "Spinoza's God" statement, noted: "But what possible difference does it make to anyone if we use the word 'God' in place of 'order' or 'harmony,' except perhaps to avoid the accusation of having no God?" Weinberg certainly has a valid point, but we should also forgive Einstein for being a product of his times, for his poetic sense, and for his cosmic religious view regarding such things as the order and harmony of the universe. But what, at bottom, was Einstein's belief? The long answer exists in Einstein's essays on religion and science as given in his Ideas and Opinions (1954), his Autobiographical Notes (1949), and other works. What about a short answer? In the Summer of 1945, just before the bombs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Einstein wrote a short letter stating his position as an atheist (Figure 1). Ensign Guy H. Raner had written Einstein from mid-Pacific requesting a clarification on the beliefs of the world famous scientist (Figure 2). Four years later Raner again wrote Einstein for further clarification and asked "Some people might interpret (your letter) to mean that to a Jesuit priest, anyone not a Roman Catholic is an atheist, and that you are in fact an orthodox Jew, or a Deist, or something else. Did you mean to leave room for such an interpretation, or are you from the viewpoint of the dictionary an atheist; i.e., 'one who disbelieves in the existence of a God, or a Supreme Being'?" Einstein's response is shown in Figure 3. Combining key elements from the first and second response from Einstein there is little doubt as to his position: "From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.... I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our being." Einstein continued to search, even to the last days of his 76 years, but his search was not for the God of Abraham or Moses. His search was for the order and harmony of the world. From Skeptic vol. 5, no. 2, 1997, pp. 62ff.
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Kevn Klein
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12-07-2005 11:44
From: Siro Mfume I could have sworn the bible covered that whole god thing you keep mentioning, oh well I guess not. Because the Bible talks about God I'm talking about the Bible by talking about whether Einstein was a theist or atheist? Now I can't talk about anything ever discussed in the Bible or I'll be talking about the Bible? |
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Kevn Klein
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12-07-2005 11:47
From: Chip Midnight No. It might make him a Deist, but more likely he was an agnostic (which as we've discussed before at length is still an atheistic position), but it's hard to tell with Einstein. He spoke to his audience and tended to put things in terms they would understand. He (and his theory of relativity) were also under heavy assault by religious people and so he labored to be diplomatic.
His reply that was "quoted in figure 3" is what I quoted earlier in the thread.
[/font][/color][/size][/font] I prefer to go by what Einstein said rather than what others think he believed. He was very clear with his language, and I think it's very clear he understood the word atheist when he straight out denied being one. |
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Chip Midnight
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12-07-2005 13:26
From: Kevn Klein I prefer to go by what Einstein said rather than what others think he believed. He was very clear with his language, and I think it's very clear he understood the word atheist when he straight out denied being one. Well that doesn't surprise me in the least, since you make it a habit to believe what you want to believe despite all evidence to the contrary 
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Kevn Klein
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12-07-2005 13:29
From: Chip Midnight Well that doesn't surprise me in the least, since you make it a habit to believe what you want to believe despite all evidence to the contrary Listen to who is talking, Mr. All-Non-Theists-are-Atheists |
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Jake Reitveld
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12-07-2005 13:32
Un strictly speaking a non-theist, is an athiest. What gets me is that whenever someone says the term athiest there is an underlying assumption they mean the chirsstian god.
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Chip Midnight
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12-07-2005 13:32
From: Kevn Klein Listen to who is talking, Mr. All-Non-Theists-are-Atheists Behold the power of logic!
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Kevn Klein
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12-07-2005 13:34
From: Chip Midnight Behold the power of logic! Yes, it's magical, isn't it? Agnostics are atheists in denial, right? lol |
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Chip Midnight
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12-07-2005 13:42
From: Kevn Klein Agnostics are atheists in denial, right? lol You can't believe in something you're not sure exists, can you? But please, let's not rehash that. You should be well versed in my opinions on that subject by now.
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Kevn Klein
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12-07-2005 13:44
From: Chip Midnight You can't believe in something you're not sure exists, can you? But please, let's not rehash that. You should be well versed in my opinions on that subject by now. Yes, I am, very well. You reject the agnostic's statement of not accepting or denying the existence of God. They are in denial. |
