When will Bush stop lying?

and I'll start with the Democratic Senators --all but nine (unless you include Independant Jeffords as 10) who voted for the renewal of The P.A.T.R.O.T. ACT (which has nothing to do with patriotism and stands for "Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism" --also a misnomer as it has more to do with abridging the rights of US citizens than anything else)

The US Constitution is now rendered obsolete. Welcome to The Fascist State of America (not states mind you --STATE) with it's Unitary Dictator George W. Bush.

I was not surprised at the spineless Republicans who regularly suck on King George's teat, but I am deeply ashamed of the Democrats who supported this travesty.

I very much agree. I was sadly dissapointed, as I have been in the past, that once again, many Democratic Senators showed no spine. I am also puzzled at why they aren't going for George's throat more often and far louder. The present administration is the most corrupt (and bumbling) in our history, and is remarkably transparent about it. Yet, other than a few sound bites, hardly anyone is willing to really step up and do anything about it. Thankfully, my state is one that has a Democratic senator that actually did vote against this rape of the constitution.

I can't remember the last time I heard someone generally considered a liberal be as critical of say, Kim Jong Il, Saddam Hussein, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (Iran), Hamas, Al-Qaeda, Syria, etc. as they are of America, Bush, Israel, or US Allies (Arab, European or Austrailia). (Of course I can say the same in reverse about conservatives.)

Actually no, there was the cartoon thing, which was sort of unusual in the first place... but that's about all I can recall.

The other problem is the complete lack of recognition of ANY positive things, good developments, accomplishments, or even the acknowledgement that the end goal of whatever US policy that is being criticised is at least a good one. (I'm not saying the end goal of US policies are always good, or that there are always positive things, etc, just that they are never acknowledged.) Even if someone thinks a policy is the stupidest, most assinine and dangerous policy you could have, I would hope that everyone could at least agree in principle. Everyone is so cynical, it seems even that can't happen anymore.

It's like everyone is a politician now. The second rule of politics is pretty much to never admit that your opponent is right about something or has done something correctly. (The first rule is that you have to lie alot to follow the second.)

gladly, 1st tell me what good this administration has done for mankind and countryman since it was first blighted upon us in 2001?

in words you might understand better:

How is the World better off with GWB and cronies?

ask yourself, and dont give me this "well we haven't been attacked again" BS either

what have they done that has improved the world or this country

give me a reason to applaud them, please, im begging you

Well, this is the problem--you tell me. Anything I say you're just going to argue about.

I'm not in agreement with alot of the current administration's social policies (although isn't banning partial birth abortion one of those?), and most of the global security ones are too long term and complex to judge yet. (Although the end goal there is still good...)


But I'll bite just once, for an example. How about tax cut figures for the middle class:

http://www.factcheck.org/article106.html

I'll make the prediction now: rather than admit that this was a good thing for anyone middle class or below, someone's going to comment about how people who have high incomes got much bigger cuts. That's an example of what I mean.

I'll agree that if you look specifically for concrete, clear accomplishments of the current administration (although this isn't precisely what I was trying to get at), off the top of my head the list seems pretty sparse. But I don't know if Clinton's, Bush HW, or Regan's lists of concrete, clear accomplishments (that can't be debated) look too much better. I have a problem believing that anyone out there with some amount of common sense really could not find even ONE positive thing.

LOL... when I first glanced at this thread's title, I thought it said "When will Bush stop LIVING?"

Oh, hush, y'all.

P2

Baseless? Bush lied about the levees. Fact. When the right can't argue the facts they start making silly straw-men (non-existent conspiracies) and knocking them down. So stop giving us b.s. like "you blame everything on Bush" and start responding to the things we really blame Bush for. 1) Iraq. 2) The Deficit. 3) Illegal Wiretapping. 4) The lack of preparedness in the US. 5) Iraq. 6) Iraq.
Do I really need to continue?

so the destruction and death we have brought around the world is "balanced" or "offset" by middle class tax cut

wow, just wow

seems pretty "Christian" to me

Im speechless

really

good for you and your tax cuts. I bet those crippled orphans and Iraq eating sand to survive are real happy for you and your tax cut

not to mention when taxes get cut, something goes away

why don't tell me what we lost to support your tax cuts and war?

environment?

Health?

national guard in a national emergency?

Schools...



Good for you and your tax cut. Brag to your illiterate weazing grandchildren (in thier gas masks of course) of how GWB was such a great leader

We could badmouth the government of Japan if you'd like. Your government's affection for dead war criminals is pretty ugly. But, as an American, I'm much more interested in the problems here. Probably a little narrow-minded of me, but that's how I am.

Lets look at this article a bit (remember not everything on the internets is true) and factcheck the factcheck.org



If you may recall Kerry's Plan was to essentially give everyone without health insurance, health insurance. He was also advocating the opening up of Senator level health care to us, the people. They have a rather good plan and I wouldn't mind losing $100 to $400 out of my taxes for that kind of care. I currently pay well over that (somewhere in the neighborhood of $240 for premiums in addition to copay, etc.). As it is I paid some $5700 (cash) for fixing my eyes recently as it is not covered under my vision or medical plan. This naturally gets itemized, but only nets me another $30 or so on my taxes. Gotta love that right? So Dean is essentially correct. Unless you want to deficit spend like we are now.



The key thing to take away here is 'families'. Not much at all changed for single people or homosexual couples who are not allowed to file jointly. The tax cut was great for your standard family of four and the rich. I suppose that is something positive. Since I happen to be single, however, it's not really positive for me.



Actually if you read up on the earned income tax credit, families that make 20-30k a year pay nothing in taxes and possibly get a refund as well. This was true before Bush's plan as well. You can read up on it in this year's taxes if you want. Now the other thing to realize is that while these people are common, they are not 'middle-class' in any sense of the term. They are the bottom of the barrel, barely scraping along people. The family of 3 (mother, father, child) who make 20,000 a year are actually making less than minimum wage if both are working (this is likely). At $5.5 an hour, 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year for a total of 11,440. This magic number (or something close to it) happens to be the pay rate at which singles don't pay taxes, which makes me think that it is intended that minimum wage earners. Head of household is somewhere in between (roughly 75% of twice the single wage earner, which is also the base for familise).



Now this is closer to accurate, except that people who make 75 to 100k a year can expect to earn 1m in 10-13 years. Someone making 20-30k a year will expect to take 33 to 50 years (a lifetime of work). I would hardly place these two groups in the same category. The factcheck article omits how many families and singles fall in the first category (20-30k) versus the second one (75-100). So no reasonable comparison can be made there, except to say that people who have more money are getting a nice tax cut versus the poor who are not getting anything additional.



A very few people would consider the people making less than $10k a year as 'middle-class'. I'd call them instead, 'people on welfare', or poor, or working poor.

It is somewhat suprising and dissappointing that factcheck used a source that qualified poor people as 'middle classs'. I think a much better idea would be to have simply raised the minimum wage to be closer to the living wage and adjust tax law accordingly. In my area you have to be making at least $10-$11 (around what I make currently) an hour to be considered to be earning a 'living wage'. This means that the minimum wage earners are likely having to have both parents in a family working to make ends meet. Raising the minimum and adjusting tax law accordingly would also allow people currently earning a living wage to benefit from the Earned Income Tax Credit (which would help a lot more people out of poverty and properly scale them against the middle class).

Now to redress the whole 'positive' thing. I obviously don't see much of what Bush has done as positive, having suffered directly from some of it. However I can freely admit that many people have received many positive things from his administration. Such as the aforementioned tax cut (very nice if you're upper middle class or higher), the no child left behind program (I don't like it, but I imagine it good for some people), the war on terror (again not good for me, however it is good for contracter jobs, the medical industry, developers, and the housing market), etc. It's all just a matter of perspective.

From mine, he's the worst president ever largely because I have had to live through him and am not benefitting from the many positives that some are. It's a very selfish attitude I guess. I could be happy with the fortune of others, but I'm afraid I might never be that noble. So your prediction is true. Enjoy?

Typical bullshit spin, stop being a jackass. Are you really this impossible to have a respectful conversation with?

I'm not saying anything even CLOSE to that and you're totally missing the point. The sad thing is that if you aren't doing it on purpose, you really don't understand at all. It's not about offsetting anything. It's about not acknowledging anything positive whatsoever. I'm tired of this, figure it out for yourself.

It's mind boggling that you'd even suggest that I think a tax cut balances out against Iraq's situation. Jesus Christ...

Siro, that's all fine, but it's irrelevant to the point I was making in that post.

Some of the numbers struck me as odd too, such as "cuts" for the 20k to 30k range, so I'm not really sure what they're talking about there. Low income people don't pay taxes to begin with.

But I only threw that out as an example (knew I shouldn't have) to my actual point anyway, so whatever.



Fine, be selfish, I'm not calling out anyone for that. But again that isn't what I'm trying to say. It's not that anyone should be happy about the good fortune of others, I just want to see a positive <something> acknowledged instead of ignored.

I'm bitching about the fact that someone from one side of the political spectrum could run into a burning building to save 10 people, and all the other side would have to say about it is that they screwed up because they didn't do so-and-so as well.

I'll add something, too. Cynicism is really damn annoying, and there's more than enough of that to go around here.

yes everyone lies and so has our presidents. But, would I rather have a president who lief about getting some nookie in the white house, or have a president that lied first about WMD for the war, lied about spying, lied about all children left behind, lied about our envirnment, lied about katrina, lied about ports and honestly I could go on and on about his lies. Yes we need to do something, the one thing that I do is continously write my elected officials and voice my concerns. The man needs impeached. We impeach a man for a blow job but not for killing thousands in a lied upon war and hundreds more for lack of caring in a disaster. Now tell me where is the justice????

If someone gives you candy and then punches you in the face are you going to thank them for the candy?

Are they wearing a leather harness and hot pants?

no, this is where you are wrong

the power in this system of government is that the people can hold thier elected officials to a higher standard and accountability

we can insist our government acts in certain ways; act responsibly, be good world citizens

problem is, we are all too busy

while we have been asleep, the system has been hijacked. I am sorry, GWB is the absolute worst catastrophe that could have happened to this country. what we are giving up and losing and the enemies we are making are indeed balanced by a middle class tax cut

if you clamor for less taxes and you don't care where it comes from, you are neglecting your duty as a citizen

as bad as GWB is, this is not his fault

thats right, I said it, Bush is blame free in this insanity we live in

You are

and every other idiot who fell for his BS and elected him a 2nd time!

there is blood on your hands, my friend, and on every taxpayer in this country

those who didn't vote for Bush but supported representatives who signed the patriot act have blood on thier hands

this country isn't dead yet, but unless people wake up to the reality of the corporate military industrial machine and the relationship to our government, it will be far far too late

you think I am a simpleton who doesn't understand whats going on

I am not insulting Bush to hurt bush, I am insulting Bush to wake people up to what irreparable damage they do if they don't exorcise their rights and be vigilant

the government belongs to us, not vice versa

if you voted for Bush, do something NOW

make sure the republican party is taken back from this mafia

I don't dislike the republicans at all, nor the democrats for that matter (As stated, I am not a dem and I consider the 2 party system a broken system)

as I have stated before, the GOP leadership are RINO's, republicans in name only, and they are fanatics

the type that shoot doctors to make a point on pro life (???)

the birth of 15 viable parties and we are on a far better track and more in tune with the concept of our origin (aside from the strong federalists)

work hard to make sure a disaster like this never represents the government

I know people who were around and active in politics in the 60s who say they never saw this type of deviciveness in the country

this is so bad and unless the citizenry wake up, this can only get worse...

(sorry for my spelling, im sick and can't spell when I am healthy)

Well it wasn't a horrible example. If I was making a good wage of over 50k, I probably would be supporting the tax cuts. I hate paying taxes. I acknowledge there are loons who love paying them, but I've always thought there were better alternatives. As such I get it that you were just throwing out an example which is why I had more than just the analysis in my reply.




Meh, you won't see a selfish person acknowledging something as positive (to them) if it doesn't, somehow, benefit them. My own perspective leads me to think many people are selfish (as they may be), but my own experience shows me that some people are clearly not (at least in the ways I perceive it). Whether this is good for them or bad for them depends on their own situations.

You may know how I do indeed extensively research a lot of things that come up that seem of interest. However I do find myself lacking in finding an example of something positive, from my own perspective (it would have to benefit me, or possibly the world, somehow).



Examples are fun and dangerous. The building could be a prison, and the 10 people, inmates on death row, who are about to be executed tomorrow. Which would then make saving them extremely negative (or at the very least, pointless). Now it could also be a church and the 10 people could be little old ladies that I know and love (or generally value for the wisdom of age). And that would be positive.

It's also a balancing act. For example; let's say tomorrow they announced that people who go in for a state sponsored neutering and in return they would never, ever, have to pay tax of any sort, shipping and handling fees, and get free stamps forever. If I had no designs on children or further children, and generally didn't value my manliness (or the manliness of others) it is a positive thing. If I value my manliness (and the manliness of others on a whole) over the pittance of tax, then I decline the offer and see it as a generally horrible thing that others do not make my same decision. I do value my manliness and would hope for a better solution to come along.

What I seem to have observed is that when you take the actions of our current president, you can weigh them in as positives and negatives. However a weighty amount of negatives would offset a smaller amount of positives leaving the overall situation negative (for democrats) and vice versa (for republicans in power).

So it is not that some people (at least selfish ones) are ignoring and invalidating positive examples (should they be aware of them), it is that the negatives have outweighed the positive (to them).

I love paying taxes. Nothing makes me happier than being a responsible citizen.

I sure could go for some pie about now....or a fresh hot Krispy Kreme doughnut...oh...and a deliciously fresh aromatic cup of coffee.

Except that they wouldn't. They would let the building burn to the ground while watching those 10 people die or become displaced homeless people while soliciting deals to develop the property for their rich friends.

Don't believe me?

KATRINA

Only if you're Harry Whittington --and then you'll also apologize.

Wonder what happened to the buck stops here... Boy George Bush sure loves to pass the blaim for things he has done. The Mayor and Governor are heros, only the Repugnicans spin has made them look bad, to take the blaim and responsiability of Boy George Bush (As if he has ever been responsiable)

Time to impeach Boy George Bush, the Criminal Tom DeLay and Mr. Frist.

Aha I have managed to think of a possible positive. I believe bush stated in a public speech that we should go back to the moon and may have pushed for funding in that direction. I consider that positive.

Although I will still maintain the negatives are more numerous than positives.

I realized the answer to my question.

Like a child, Bush will not stop lying until he is caught and punished for it.

Sorry for using this thread and this forum to work through my own thoughts. Carry on.