I don't understand this Gorean thing.

But Frank - some of the masters in Gor are women, with their own slaves.

coco

Interesting, as I was just told to write on this very topic. I'll condense my six-page tome into a few paragraphs.

First off, let's be real. No one can force you to do anything in SL, short of a Linden banning you or some such. Anyone who is in Gor here does so because it is what they want to do. And they can change their mind at any point by teleporting out of the situation. And some do. Makes for crappy role-play, but if someone has just had enough, they have this option.

Now, the Masters (and Mistresses) generally aren't a stupid bunch. They know this to be the case. They know that if they cross the line, their slave is going to get the hell out of there. The Master must show a certain respect to the slave, or it's all over.

The Master demands respect explicitly; the slave, implicitly.

As to your other comment, Gor is hardly a way to make BDSM more palatable to the masses. There are many in the bondage community, actually, who find it beyond the pale.

Is it lame? That's for you to decide *shrug*

Very true. And the slaves are sometimes male. Although it adds some additional combinations and permutations, and is a basis for elaboration, I don't think it makes a significant difference for my analysis. Did you think otherwise? If so, please help me understand.

Interesting analysis frank. I read the gor novels as a teen, and well, Conan is better. I find the whole thing tedious personally, though many Groeans would say the same thigs about say my Napoleonic Wargaming Hobby, so its sort of whatever floats the boat.

I would mention though that slavery really has a more negative connotation in our eyes, as western proponents of human equality, than it ever has in other cultures. The current notion of individual freedom and right to self determination as a person or a people, is really a fairly new Idea.

But then again, other cultures did not necessarily attach the same stigma of beating and manual labor to slaves. The Mameluks in Egypt were a soldier-slave class that was charged with the administration of the entire country. Mamleukes, though slaves, could and did enjoy lives lifestyle that were far richer and fuller than the life of the average westerner.

When we talk abotu gore we talk about creating another culture, one that divests itself of our own western prejudices about "slavery." The goreans attempt to recreate a culture where theere is a certain honor and dignity in slavery born of the servitude-sort of like samurai in Japan, only in a sexual and not martial manner. I should think that to a Gorean, slavery would be a natural and inevitable part of life, and maybe not so abhonorent as it is to us.

Sometimes when we talk its good to know the cultural biases and prejudices we bring into our observations and discourse, and know what we are reacting to.

Lorelei, I'd love to read the six-page version. If you don't want to post it as an attachment, can you offer it for private transmission? If so, let us know.

After studying all of these posts I see that I was confusing S/M and BDSM with Gorean stuff thus my confusion. Thanks to all who straightened my head out.

It is understandable. Part of the confusion comes because some Goreans have BDSM roots and have incorporated BDSM in their role-playing but BDSM is not in the books and not a part of Gor.

The short of it is that Gor is a fictional world based on science fiction novels by John Norman which incorporates slavery as the social norm. BDSM is a community based on the willing submission of the sub to his/her Dom and the exchange of power and responsibility, the main part, and BDSM sex play, a minor part.

The two lifestyles are related in the submission aspect which is probably why many BDSMers have migrated to Gor but two very different things.

Er.... no.

It contained a lot of very personal things that I just don't feel I can share here. Really, the meat of it is what I put in my post.

But thanks for showing an interest. IM me if you want to discuss it in world.

Very close..but..

BDSM is actually representative of a few forms of fetish play, though it is often confused with D/s which is typically a lifestyle and relationship between a Dominant(s) and
submissive(s).

Gorean lifestylers practice D/s, but in a strict and narrower scope, with social rules and behaviors already in place.

D/s stands for Dominance and submission and comes in many flavors. Gorean lifestylers practice one of it's many styles (and yes, there are many variations within the Gorean style as well).

BDSM stands for Bondage, Discipline, Sadism and Masochism, which are more physical acts in which people can take pleasure in, whether within the D/s lifestyle or not.

A certain amount of BDSM was practiced in the Gorean books, for training and otherwise, but it more closely follows a hardcore D/s line that runs to the extreme.

There..is that more confusing now?

It's very important to remember, that these choices are consensual and between adults. Though Gorean's practice "slavery", the slave has far more power than one might think, and is able to walk away from it if they choose. It's all about what both the Dominant (Master or Mistress) and the submissive (Slave) enjoy. If one or the other isn't enjoying it, then it will no doubt come to a quick end unless that is corrected.

My attempt at a simplistic definition was lacking I admit. I pretty much agree with you, nice post. You are correct in separating the two and your post is more comprehensive than mine. D/s may or may not be a BDSM thingy but a BDSM thingy is almost always D/s which is why I did not make the distinction.

A notable difference between a Gorean D/s relationship and a non-Gorean D/s relationship is that the slave has no choice in his/her plight. She is bought and sold at her Master's whim, like any other possession and has to either submit to her new Master or be killed.

A non-Gorean sub however gives herself willingly to her Dom. She cannot be bought, sold or given away without her permission. A sub is her Dom's as long as he has not released her but is under no obligation to submit to a new Dom. That is a huge thing as the sub has all of the control before submitting where a Gorean Master has all of the control on Gor. A sub chooses her Dom, a slave does not choose her Master.

To my knowledge the BDSM in the books was usually associated with the chaining and disciplining of slaves and I do not look at that as a pure BDSM relationship. You can look at that either way I suppose. I still stand by my statement that a BDSM relationship does not having anything to do with Gor, but that is my opinion.

Just remember...



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Gor spelled backwards is Rog.

Finally got around to reading this thread after Mine mentioned it to me. I noticed that all the 'internal' viewpoints expressed were those of submissives. Herein is the perspective of a Gorean Free Man, a Master, if you will. Incidentally, I am lorelei's Master, for whom the aforementioned tome was written.

From the Dom/Master standpoint, online Gor provides some unique opportunities, both in meeting people to scene with, and in the parameters of scenes. The same is true of most online arrangements, Gorean or otherwise, I suppose. In an environment like SL, we have the opportunity to explore our selves, our desires, our fetishes, or what have you, without the conventional limits that we encounter in everyday life. In SL, anyone can be beautiful and stylish, and get into the hot nightspots, and indulge in all manner of thrills, sexual or otherwise. Outside of Gor, in SL, I am an avid pilot, skydiver, and BASE jumper. My RL just does not afford me the time or means to do such things.
Likewise, I am a Dominant IRL, and have been 'active' for quite a few years. Online Gor has allowed me to meet people whose tastes and intensity match my own, and to construct elaborate and satisfying scenes. Additionally, it has allowed me to meet the most wonderful woman, sub or otherwise, I have ever known, who as sister to lorelei serves me with all of her heart. (yes you, my pela girl...) As it separates out the physical, certain aspects of play can be taken alot farther in a RP without fear of injury or intrusion(or having to go to the trouble to sanitize the room). It allows both Free and slave a level of self expression not often afforded us in our RLs. For myself, I dont understand the Furry thing. I have a Furry avie, and have been known to wander about in it, and go to FurNation and such, but I dont derive the deep level of satisfaction that a 'hardcore' Furry does from it. That is perfectly alright. Likewise, I do not expect everyone to fully understand the satisfaction I derive from Gorean RP, from a well written and executed dance or drink serve, followed by some private time.

As a 'lifestyle choice' the emphasis on honor, and earning what you have (whether you are Free or slave) is a rather refreshing shift from our modern western emphasis on entitlement, and instant gratification. As a student of the philosophy and history of our various warrior cultures, an honor based society where a person is judged by their peers solely on their ability to fulfill the tasks of the Caste, and their character, I see a great deal of merit in such a viewpoint. While it is true that a possibly large number of men use Gor as a justification for their abuse of others, the same can also be said of other ideas and lifestyle choices, such as, say, religion.

Like most things in life, Gor is not for everyone. Like most things, you can not really know if it is for you, until you try it, and like ALL things, it can not truly and accurately be judged or assessed from the outside, from the subjective experiences of others.
Additionally, those wishing to discuss the tome, or other matters with lorelei, or myself, are invited to contact me.

It is a hard thing to understand anything from afar. I am providing a post from Fidelio Mastdor the Adminstrator of a Gorean Sim. It is important to note that EVERYONE chooses the role they are portraying in in the Gorean world inclusive of the famed forced collaring roleplay you are aware what you can and cannot do SL.

Lady Belvedere is starting a weekly event. You might want to chat with her, she gives out the apprpriate clothing and will give tours of the cities and is a Mentor to boot. In Glorious Ar they are starting an academy for those seriously wanting to learn. The predominant basis to Gor is Honor Loyalty and Respect. And yes we exclude Furries for the most part however we do have some animals however only those that fit the details of the Norman books. Herewith I enter Fidelios post. Be Well M'lady

From the Horses Mouth regarding Gorean Governments

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Greetings - since the topic of politics or government in Gorean lands has been raised as a theoretical question, I will be happy to cut to the chase and provide objective data from a primary source, so that needless preliminary research may be avoided.

First, Gorean culture is based on 27 novels written by John Lange under the pen name John Norman. The titles are all in the form "xxxx of Gor". Norman's writing style includes detailed descriptions of the physical and cultural aspects of the planet Gor and its inahbitants. With this rich three shelf feet of source material, it considerably more feasible for a person to simulate life on Gor than on, say, the planet Trantor of Asimov's Foundation series, whose description is by comparison sparse and where many aspects of every day life and business are by necessity glossed over.

Secondly, there are many different ways in which this project can be and, in SL, *is* approached by the parties who are engaged in it. Some of us are interested in living the Gorean lifestyle and culture online and off to the closest degree we can come, for our own personal growth and satisfaction. Others are interested in undiluted Gorean Role Play, where a person can be and is forced by the rules of role play to endure situations not to his or her liking in order to keep the role play valid. There are various degrees to which the culture of the books of Norman is lived faithfully, depending on the goals of those forming that particular community. For example, if dwell is a major goal, some might dilute the culture by combining it with other alternative lifestyle choices to broaden the appeal of a given sim. These are all rightful options of each community that pursues Gorean life to one or another degree in SL.

What we all have in common is that there is a large body of printed literature documenting in considerable detail what it is that we are talking about and doing, and what its underlying philosophy is. There is no need to research this to understand it - simply read the literature. What can be and is an interesting topic of investigation is to study the compromises and tradeoffs each community has chosen to make in implementing its preferred way to approach the problem; but there is not major disagreement on what Gor is, except that doubtless there could be a community that uses the word Gor but refers to some entirely online invention with little or no relationship to the planet and culture described in this body of literature.

So, we can speak in terms of what Gor is like as described in the books.

Gor has no planetary government. The planet is in effect owned and controlled by the insectoid alien species which *moved* this planet into our solar system and, as one may expect, controls the sorts of awesome powers necessary to transport planets between stars and keep objects as massive as planets moving in non Newtonian orbits. This species (the Priest Kings) has populated Gor with humans originating on Earth, where they have been thriving for over 10,000 years. The PK's basically leave humans alone, but they have specifically forbidden the development of various technologies. Contention between humans is pretty much limited to up close and personal conflict resolution. Advanced weapons, including even small arms and certainly explosives and WMD's, are forbidden, and anyone observed experimenting with or deploying such things is detected by the PKs' surveillance system and summarily destroyed. Edged weapons, spears, bows and crossbows are permitted, as is use of local animals for cavalry.

Over those 10,000 years it has not proven economically practical for any group of people to establish hegemony over a great portion of the planet's surface. In the majority of the area, the basic model for governance is a city state, whose inhabitants swear an oath to the Home Stone of that city and who defend it with enthusiasm and elan.

Each city, being sovereign, sets in place whatever laws it seesfit. Over time there has been a good deal in common between laws of Gorean cities, but there remain variations - for example, thieves are punished harshly in most cities, but in one, Port Kar, there is actually a respected Guild of Thieves whose members proudly display markings of their membership on their faces. There are also regions in which other forms of tribal culture, reminiscent of the nomadic tribes of the middle East, those of North America, or of the warlords of ancient Scandinavia, live exuberantly.

Populated regions are either governed by law, or governed by force, depending on the choices of their inhabitants. The people of various regions trade with one another, and at times there is conflict such as raiding or small scale war between groups. Global conflict is not a Gorean thing; small grudges and skirmishes are.

Speaking for the city named Glorious Ar in SL, we are organized much like Ar, a major city in the books. The city is ruled by an Administrator, advised by a High Council whose members are leaders of the High Castes of the City. Productive work is organized within these Castes. There are laws; our laws are basically those of the books which were valid in Ar, and are quite extensive. We have Warriors to enforce the law; Magistrates and courts to interpret them; and the Administrator as the final court of appeal within our city. There are also Rules of Role Play which define the interface between the conduct of everyday life in a human city, and the particular realities imposed by the program called Second Life. For example, people are killed on Gor and when they are killed they stay dead. However, the program SL has made it impossible for the living to inherit all of the possessions and works such as builds that were left behind by the dead. As a result, we have chosen in our Rules of RP to implement death as a temporary thing, so that the death of a builder does not annihilate half a city. Compromises are always necessary.

That is what we have done in Ar. Other cities have organized themselves as they have seen fit, with varying degrees of faithfulness to the books that document the culture, as is their right.

The common thread, however, is that in each case we are simulating to some degree a place that is well documented in the literature, living to some degree the culture that is described there, and operating to one degree or another under an organized system of laws, law enforcement, and governance, even if it is simply the law and rule of steel. This has been going on since the first Gorean community appeared in SL; it was considerably enhanced by the establishment of the original sim of Port Kar in Spring of 2005 (now defunct - the sim now called Port Kar is much different) and followed in short order by others, namely Port Cos, The Wilderness, Tharna, Glorious Ar, Ko-ro-ba, and numerous others, in approximately that order (some of which endure as originally conceived while others have changed, disappeared, and/or been replaced in name but not necessarily location.)

Ar was created in May of 2005 in cooperation with the original Port Kar, and operated under laws of Port Kar until September of 2005 at which time new laws and rules that were intended to be much more faithful to the books of Gor were promulgated. We have been governing ourselves as a Gorean City and enforcing the laws one would expect to find in a Gorean City ever since. At present there are on the order of a dozen communities occupying a sim or more of SL land, who are implementing one or another interpretation of Gorean life and culture. For the most part, each is ruled in a manner that will at least be familiar or recognizable to anyone who has read the books.

I hope this has clarified this topic. For specific information about the structure of Law and Rule in Glorious Ar, please see the information posted on the website at http://shadowfyre.com/portkar/html/index.php where both documents are available as PDF or HTML documents.

Those interested in studying the matter in more detail are encouraged to visit Ar and the other Gorean lands, specifically including the Gorean Academy at the hub in Southern Ar wherea library exists, complemented by the libraries in other Gorean cities. I regrettably do not visit these Forums often, but am available in SL to answer questions or make referrals.

I wish you well - Fidelio Matador, Administrator of Ar


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A thread for group study of Gorean culture in SL has begun in the Law Society group forum at:
/246/99/85031/1.html

Isn't there a Gorean/Dungeons and Dragons convention coming up?

Considering the two aren't really related... at all... I don't see why there would be a convention that fused the two.

As a relinquishment of responsiblity for one's own actions.

Closest I could think of would be DragonCon, which is sort of every geeky subculture fused into one... but even there, I doubt the two would mix well.

Actually, a lot of DnD players really hate Gor and the gorean culture... Every time an anti-DnD crusade starts up, Gor gets used as one of the arguements from the opposition it seems.

Interesting. So even the most free man is not entirely free.

Are there any PKs in SL? I think that would be my role.

Are the roles of dominant and submissive based entirely on biological sex?

Are there ever men who are submissive to women? To other men?

I wouldn't know, while I am a tabletop RPGer, I'm not really much of a D&Der.

My dislike of Gor is based more in me having rather more of a rugged individualist streak than could possibly be healthy.

SL Gor is a mish-mosh of self appointed dictators. I often heard the basis of Gor is honor yet, in the books there were many dishonorable Frees and slaves alike.

It's simply a way to RP. The slavery was not the main basis of the books, it seems I remember reading someplace that the percentage of slaves in Gor, according to the books, was like 2%. Yet online Gor uses it way out of proportion. Why? because it may be exciting to some, living out a fantasy.

Yes Neehai its not based on the biological sex. Although I have seen it used against some who happen to be gay. Why? Because certain dictators say it isnt 'in the books'. But at the same time you may find slingo and such on a Gor sim.... I never read about slingo in the books You have slaves switcihing anf Frees switching a lot in SL Gor, simply because it is just a form of RP, nothing more, nothing less.

By the Books
There seems to be a never-ending struggle on Gor between those who cry, "If it's not specifically in the books, it's not Gorean!".... and those who seem to feel entitled to rewrite Norman's works, proclaiming, "If it's not specifically NOT in the books, it's acceptable." While I doubt that someone who is afraid to make a move without first checking to make sure it is in the "sacred scrolls" is what Norman envisioned when he created his proud, independent Gorean people....

There is also such a thing as poetic license run amok. While adhering to the books is something we should all strive for... the books themselves are contradictory in places and therein lies the problem. The books are filled with unique and singular individuals... each different... but all of them Gorean.

What is it that makes them Gorean?... Is it the clothes they wear?... No... From the naked slave to the Tatrix in her robes of gold... all are still Gorean. Is it the way they behave? Do they all conduct themselves with Honor?... Not really... The books are filled with less than honorable people..... yet they are still Gorean.

It is the philosophies that tie them together. (Considering Norman is a philosopher, not a foreign concept, huh?) The belief that Men are naturally dominant and women are by nature submissive. The belief in a natural order that is not to be denied. There are many more, but toy thinks you can see the point.

There are many who read the books of Norman and study all of the websites. We meet them every day. They somehow... absorb all of the details of the books while missing the message. They choose a Gorean name, and keeping in mind Rule # 1, (Tal the Free and greet the slaves), They come swooping into Gor on tarnback, leading a larl on a leash, demanding paga with a ka-la-na chaser. (You laugh, but that actually happened.) While this person may have a wealth of knowledge of things Gorean, they just don't..... "get it." That is not to say they never will... they just haven't yet.

But.... If you believe strongly in the philosophies that Norman set down, and hold true to them, they will govern your behavior. If you must think about it... consult the books before you make a move...
then, you have somehow not yet grasped the difference between "acting Gorean" ...... and Being Gorean.

Becoming Gorean is not an overnight occurrence... but more of an evolution... some are just higher up on the evolutionary ladder than others.


So in closing it's just a way some people choose to RP

Most Goreans who know me tell me that I'm the closest thing to a Priest-King they've laid their eyes on yet in SL. For whatever that's worth.

This weekend Pooka and I morphed into cute li'l 14yo girl scouts and sold Gor Scout Cookies in Treve. It was a riot.

Jess

You are the closest thing to a giant golden bug they have ever laid eyes on. Hmm, are you sure they were paying you a complimient?

That is really quite black and white philosophy. And highly sexist imho. The world is full of shades of grey. Personally nothing has ever been in my nature to submit to anyone. People are naturally dominant or submissive, its not based on gender.

To me personally, RPing like this would be the same as someone RPing that they are a nazi. Ok. not the same, but its an ism just the same.

I go to the sims to check out the build. You get sent a bunch of notecards full of rules. Which takes a long time to read, and generally makes me angry. Some have rules such as: free women who wear revealing clothing can be forced to become a slave because she secretly wants it.

So by this time I'm already upset. I put on the supplied visitor tag and change my clothes into the one thing that I own that might not be revealing. (How many SL clothes out there that aren't?) I don't RP. I'm not there to RP. I just want to see how things are designed, since a lot of them are very pretty. Yet, in my adventures I've still had people threaten to collar me. Many of my friends in the same situation have been caged and in turn banned from the sim.

That's what I don't understand. The forced sexisim and sexual harrasment. Isn't there a rule against it in the TOS?