Marine sings about killing Iraqi women

By the way, before you get wrathy/indignant/condescending, understand that I do agree with you, fundamentally. My question was more a philisophical one.

Rei, I rarely get riled when discussing stuff with you because you always treat people with respect and approach things from a logic standpoint. Which is why I always try to treat you in kind. I am probably not always successful, but I do bear this in mind when we talk.

I just personally think it's not appropriate for a soldier to do. They are supposed to be highly disciplined, especially Marines, and that behavior is just not in keeping with the professionality expected of a Marine, and certainly is a breach of the discipline one would expect.

Being ex-military, I always give soldiers the benefit of the doubt, but in this case, I think he needs an Article 15 at the very least.

Hell, I know people who were tossed into the brig for a heck of a lot less.

It's just a disrespectful and tasteless thing for a soldier to do.

Hmm can anyone cite the example of rap music. I can think of a number of DMX songs that are about killing people. Apparently singing about killing people in a 7-11 is ok, but it all changes when you sing about it in a war zone. Or is it that the guy is white and white people don't sing about killing? I mean its not like "country death song" by the violent femmes has any degree of sickness. Healthy people throw thier daughters in a well all the time.

for example:

what about this from DMX ("the professional" off the "and then there was x" album):

"I can catch you in the very building that you live in (UH)
Wait until you get right at your door then start spittin (aight?)
Now they got a ribbon tied to the rail at the top of the steps (what?)
I was there, you ain't DIE at the top of the steps (aight?)
I can do that walk behind you shit and follow you home (shhh)
Make a noise, you turn around and I put one in your dome (BOOM!)
Last thing you saw was chrome and a, flash of light (uhh, uhh, uhh)
I blast him right, nigga, that's yo' ass tonight (C'MON!)
I could put a bomb in your car and watch it explode (BOOM!)
then make em call, tell em all they found was a piece of your clothes
and a small piece of your nose and, bone from your arm
which they really couldn't tell apart, because of the bomb
I could be waitin, camped out in yo' car, in the backseat
with some fuckin chickenwire, soon as you hit the backstreet
I jump up like Jack-in-the-Box, strangle the shit out yo' ass (BLEH)
clean up the mess and, get away from the cops"


And of course the Violent Femmes country death song:

"Come little daughter, I will carry the lanterns.
We'll go out tonight, we'll go to the caverns.
We'll go out tonight, we'll go to the caves.
Kiss your mother goodnight and remember that God saves.
Kiss your mother goodnight and remember that God saves.

A led her to a hole, a deep black well.
I said "make a wish, make sure and not tell and
close you're eyes dear, and count to seven.
You know your papa loves you, good children go to heaven.
You know your papa loves you, good children go to heaven.

I gave her a push, I gave her a shove.
I pushed with all my might, I pushed with all my love.
I through my child into a bottomless pit.
She was screaming as she fell, but I never heard her hit.
She was screaming as she fell, but I never heard her hit.

Gather round boys to this tale that I tell.
You wanna know how to take a short trip to hell?
It's guarenteed to get your own place in hell.
Just take your lovely daughter and push her in the well.
Take your lovely daughter and throw her in the well."

but the above is art...of course.


This poor guy says the song is a joke to get away from being investigated to determine if the underlying incident was real. He should have said it is an artistic manifestation of the angst of soldiers in an impossible situation and is a social commentary on the harshness and tragedy of the war in Iraq.

To me the context of the song is that the soldier in question was in love with an Iraqi Girl, whose family killed her for being in love with an american girl. Why no comment about that? I am sure that If I were in love with a girl and her family killed her in front of me, and the fired at me..I would want to kill them. Is revenge so alien an Idea that this kid needs to be labelled a sick fuck? And that american soldiers in general need to be disparaged?

Hell maybe in world war two we did not right songs about killing civilians-we just firebombed them. For christ sakes war is a high strung tense environment, and people sitting back here in thier chairs cannot cannot begin to imagine what those people are going through.

What the kid did might, might, be conduct unbecoming. But what the media is doing to over inflate and unfortunate act of youthful indiscretion is god damned offensive. What is even more offensive is the notion we have that war is a nice clean thing like in video games, and that bad stuff does not happen except to clearly identified enemy combatants, at whome out soldiers all shoot to wound.

War is horror, and people out to think about that before cutting the dogs loose.

They already know. But you go ahead and explain it to them, anyway, OK?

I knew it

What the soldier did was dumb in the fact that he let it get out to the general public. NOW- think how YOUR life can be easily screwed up by some friend or jackass with a video camera & an internet connection. If this guy should have a punishment, I wouldnt make it severe- no brigg, no discharge. Just something a bit less severe. What the hell! You're over there, being shot at by people, not knowing IF you'll come home to a bunch of people hating you for taking part in this mess. You gotta do something to blow off some steam, laugh, tell a joke. Just DONT GET CAUGHT BEING HUMAN!!

Some folks have no clue what black humor is I see. Its rife within the military and police departments and pretty much any job that has a high stress level coupled with mortal danger from your fellow man.

We have semi jocular songs about killing the enemy, fragging officers, and even burning in on a bad jump and dying a red stain on the ground (Gory Gory what a hell of a way to die). It is part of the relief of stress that comes with being a soldier. It is the soldiers way of laughing at the stupidity of it all. In ww2 there were songs about goin huntin on the japanese islands. There are songs about having sex with whores. Honestly I don't think theres a military out there that DOESN'T have soldiers doing this kind of thing.

But honestly, I don't expect any of you to get it. You never will. You get to sit every night safe in your homes your remote sitting on your armchair or snugged up warm at your computer desk and cast judgement down upon people who are placed in situations well beyond your ken. Armchair generals and couch commando's who KNOW that they would have done it better. Some soldier making stupid funnies to relieve his stress really doesn't disgust me. This is nothing new. What disgusts me is how you all pounce on them without a god damned bit of knowledge of what is going on, no regards to history, or understanding of the military, its stresses etc. You call them ignorant, well your riding the train right behind them oh enlightened one.

You can say and do amongst your friends things that you can not do in public. Plenty of civilians have lost jobs in similiar circumstances.

I think you have forgotten that these people sitting at their computers, that you scorn, are the people the soldiers are supposed to be working for. They pay their taxes that keep the soldiers in weapons. They don't want to see THEIR soldiers behaving like that. Hypocrites maybe but the way it is.

True, we pay taxes on it. I also paid taxes for nuclear bombs so when do we get to see them in use??

Marine colonel to Navy lawyer:

"You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me there.... I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it. I'd prefer you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!"

Navy lawyer to Marine colonel (quietly):

"Did you order the code red?"













For those of you who don't understand, the above dialogue is from a movie. The name of this movie is A Few Good Men. The Marine colonel was played by the actor Jack Nicholson. He wore a football helmet in Easy Rider. The Navy lawyer was played by the actor Tom Cruise. He's grinned his way through Top Gun, War of the Worlds, and a bit part in the fictional drama Scientology. I hope I've answered your questions. I'll be Nashed if I didn't.

Their soldiers? What, the military is the American public's dog that is to behave perfectly in front of company? Are you kidding me?

Let's hear from George Orwell, shall we?

You would do well to keep that in mind, and show some goddamned respect for the military and the job they do.

-S

Are you suggesting that the military should be an independent entity and allowed to do as it sees fit regardless of the will of the American people?

This is not an "either or" problem, its a question of what sort of behavior should we expect from soldiers. Do you feel that respect for soldiers requires condoing acts like this?

I think that the person who really needs to be punished is the idiot who posted the song to the internet.

Just out of curiousity, what would be the thoughts on his having sung a song written by someone else and widely available for purchase at records stores, but is equally disturbing to many people?

Here's the Team America bit, btw:

http://ddmj.ytmnd.com/

"They" know? When you're done with the crystal ball, I'd like to borrow it to make some sports picks, ok?

Every single person who read this thread knew that was fiction?

Uh huh. You're being awfully US centric, assuming that everyone has seen that movie, and remembers those lines.

Attribution is important, especially in contentious topics, and when we have posters like #6 strolling by making generalizations.

Which is exactly why I think that this soldier need to be sanctioned. because his actions feed that mentality.

I'd say docking half a month's pay and maybe restricted him to the barracks for that same period. Hell, I knew guys when i was in, who missed one morning formation and were dealt a lot worse.

So, call being called out for non-attribution being nashed, roll your eyes while you assume that every last viewer knew the lines, I don't care, it's you who looks silly for doing so.

Maybe when people don't attribute in the future, I will call it being Clutterbucked!

ROFL, LOL, OH MY! Sometimes I really crack myself up with my cleverness!

Now don't go and blindly make all of us Clutterbucks fall under that designation, Nolan...

Hey, Nolan! I'll attribute when it's necessary, and when it's acceptable not to attribute to make the greater point, I won't. One thing I won't do is shape my comments to appease you.
So Piss off!
(By the way, Piss off! is typed in Comic Sans MS font, which seemed appropriate in response to Nolan's thoughts. I used four different colors in a descending hue to suggest putridness and disgust. The "P" is larger to emphasize the color against the bright background....

Hmmm, on second thought, I take back what I said above - analized attribution and explanation can be fun!)

Naw, not really. But I'm beginning to appreciate your sense of humor, Nolan. However, I do worry that if you're not careful, you're going to end up enabraning someone accidently, and fall from the sublime into the silly.

As for "I was a soldier and you weren't" and that sort of crap - 21 years in the Marine Corps and being on or above the ground in five conflicts taught me two things. First, soldiers behave as stupidly as civilians and at much greater cost - and that's why standards have to be so much higher. And second, the more time you've actually spent killing human beings, the less you talk about it - and if you do, it isn't by proclamation, it's by dark and sometimes indirect humor.

I've said enough - and so have you, imo.

Uh, at what point did I make any assumptions about your service, or anyone elses? Pretty hard to do when I wasn't even aware of it, don't you think? But hey, don't let me rain on your excuse to glorify your own self!

At what point did I even insinuate "I was and you werent"? I simply pointed out to ALL, particularly those who think he should have the "right" to publically make the Marines look like morons, that I saw people handed more severe punishment than I would call for in this case, if I was a JAG lawyer, for far less. But hey, take it as a personal affront, that's your problem.

Look, you like to assume, I don't. It's apparent that you also like to put words in other's mouths.

Like insinuating I wanted an "analized" attribution. That's your hang up, not mine, and it shows that you have a fairly thin skin. Rather surprising from a veteran of 21 years and 5 combat arenas. I just think that one line, for clarification purposes only, would suffice. But hey, I never ordered you to do it. I asked if you were not going to do it.

One thing *I* won't do is allow you refabricate my comments to suit you.

And yes, yes, your piss off stuff is very clever too. For people who are impressed by ad hominem, dodging and diversion, and those who would speak for everyone who may read something. Mocking people is a good method to lessen fears of being exposed as a bogus"omniscient", but it only works on those who aren't capable of deeper thought.

I guess I missed the memo where FMJ was made required viewing for every person in SL, and of course, their countrymen, in their respective countries of origin. I am sure the kids in Vietnam really took home some lessons from it.

Now, come up with some more clever word play to divert attention from the simple fact that you cannot possibly speak for everyone in this case.

As for your other observations about standards of behavior and soldiers, dark humor, et al, I agree.

Lastly, *I* will decide when I have said enough, thanks for your concern though.

Take your broad sweeping hateful statements and direct them at your own military. Anyone who knows anything realizes that the majority of our people in the service are good people, and like all very large groups, have some bad apples mixed in. I'm sure it's statistically impossible not to.

This is either outrageous and disgusting, or idiotic and in very poor taste, depending on the truth, sure. And sure I think there should be some kind of punishment, depending on the true story. But don't go and shit on such a large group of people like that as a result, it's ignorant.

I didn't watch the video but I'm sure the target audience isn't the general public.

The Marines kill people including women and sometimes kids. That is part of their job. People that have their job develop a difference sense of humor than the average person.

Believe it or not, what those guys are doing is good for their mental health.

My fiance said something that made sense about this whole ordeal- basically, by broadcasting this video on the internet it can further inflame/offend the Iraqi people & un-do any good that was done.

Kinda tough to say "we're the good guys who want to help" when something like this is leaked out.

She also mentioned it's not the soldier who should just be punished, but the idiot who put it out for the public to see. You just know the opposition will use this against us in some way.

No not kidding.However I would not decribe them as dogs as I have respect for the majority of the armed forces who serve their time without getting themselves in this situation.

Yep it is, and for all the foreign naysayers, I daresay your own military has a few similar songs being sung as well. Problem is, you are not in the spotlite, we are.

That is, if they have a military. With some countries like France, they'd might as well just disband entirely..heh. They could use the money to fund the welfare checks for their massive numbers of unemployed workers.

France has employed workers? woah when did that happen?

Independent entity? Independent from what? The American military does not answer to the American public, nor has it ever. It answers to the Joint Chiefs and the President. This means it may or may not take action according to the "will of the American people". Not to mention, the will of the people isn't exactly something that's uniform or even known.

No, I don't necessarily feel that respect for the military means one has to condone any and everything. However, I also don't feel the need to get all upset over stuff like this. A soldier doing something like this is not a bad person. I actually agree with your last line, that the person who screwed up was whomever released it to the public.

-S