Sick of Anti-American attitudes here!

I never said we don't help people, but I like how "" is a rebuttal. Very clever.

That was just a hint of sarcasm, no rebuttal. I'm not going to waste my time putting up a "rebuttal" list of things that Americans have done to help people. First of all, an actual list would be far too long, and second the whole point of my comment was that anyone who even makes a half hearted attempt should be able to create such a list.

I never said we didn't help people (you are misinterpreting), so it doesn't matter. I was just pushing your buttons. Don't be so serious, it's only life.

My dog's better than your dog
My dog's better than yours
My dog's better
'Cause he eats Ken-L-Ration
My dog's better than yours!

Edit: Reply is to post above this one ^

I understand, but I don't think I was directing the original comment to you anyway.

By the way, next time try to resist pressing the BIG RED button...do you realize what you've done??? This entire thread will now self destruct within 10 seconds.... 9... 8...

If it wasn't meant to be pressed, they wouldn't make it red. If it was really dangerous, they'd make it clear so no one would notice.

I'm really getting sick of the way I invert my sentences.

Well, as wars go, I figure some are more righteous than others. WWII I figure was a pretty righteous cause.

coco

France and Great Britain I admire as well.

coco

no i have been here before then, and really came to appreciate how important voting is, since i can't do it unless i time a visit home right and lie about having a U.S. address (which I didn't so i couldn't). Also, ballots from abroad are never counted until after the thing is over... or haven't been lately. I just happened to have moved here but it was an interesting time to see the U.S. from the outside.

As for the list of what we aren't, it doesn't negate what we are as a nation. It merely shows us (and self examination and assessment are a good thing. who can grow from thinking he or she is perfect already) that we have some areas of challenge that we can rise to. Of course we as a nation help others, but we also hurt others. important to keep both in mind when trying to figure out why people react the way they do. the U.S. must put the right of other nations' self determination above our own economic interests (or the economic interests of a handful of us corporations).

cheers. i am glad to have been born american, and proud of many aspects of my country, but also disheartened by others. nothing is hopeless though. we can look at ways to mitigate our role as international bully. i certainly see a lot more americans posting negative things about canada (even though most have a jovial joking tone of condescencion) than i see canadians posting negative things bout the US. all the above was in response to the quote that is boxed below. but i'd like to add something about coco's following assertion:

"And this business of people trashing their OWN country by talking about how stupid we are or whatever - I tell ya, it doesn't make me think worse of the country, it makes me think worse of the person."

I think you should be careful to distinguish between self-assessment (valid self assessment should look at strengths and weaknesses) and nation bashing. constructive criticism for example, is any concrete criticism of one's behaviour and assessment of how it negatively impacted others. bashing is saying one sucks without giving any direction for improvement, nor any sense of real support for the statement. it falls apart on closer examination. People, organizations and even nations must allow for healthy self examination lest they be stagnated or destroyed by delusion and self-indulgence.

that said, it is true that self-examination includes (or should) a list of strengths and supports. The US is certainly a place with those also, it's generally good-natured populace chief among them, i would say. mostly, we are a cheerful and open bunch. we just happen to think we're better than everyone else. lol

just my .002 tho. cheers everyone. hope you have a productive week.

I see this as the crux of this "issue".

We'll ("we", the world) never make much progress on this issue while some pretend that they don't think where they live is the best. It's simple human nature. If we cannot be honest with ourselves and others about that, it's not even a good idea to try and tackle the issue.

I realize there are some folks out there who really don't think their country of origin is the best, but they are few and far between.

What on earth are you saying, Iridian ? Don't you see that only small children think that the meaning of "best" is simple, obvious, and clear to everyone. Best for what purpose ? Best for which people ? Maybe the disagreement here is between a childish and an adult view of the world.
Crux of the issue ?
World never make much progress ?
Be honest with ourselves ?
Pretend ?

You MUST be taking the p*ss, yes ?
I certainly hope so.

Agreed. I'm reacting to statements of disgust, disdain, and/or self-loathing.

coco

If you had read without an emotional (and I am on the piss?) predisposition, you might have noticed that I used the word "some".

Futhermore, your use of the word "us" bears out what I am saying.

I have relatives and friends all over this planet. I visit them, they visit me, and, due international turmoil in recent years, we discuss these issues at length. Most of them have national pride, and wouldn't want to be from anywhere else. This phenomena is not limited to certain locales. As I said, this is human nature. It transcends the national level. Cities behave in the same manner. "Our futbol team is the best, and we're going to beat you!" - hell, just look at the riots between rival cities that have broken out over sporting events world wide in the past 100 plus years.

What I am saying, for those impaired by overwrought emotions, is that before we can make headway on these issues, we have to admit that human beings are prideful and territorial creatures - virtually all of us.

I can't even begin to wrap my mind around the irony of you calling me childish whilst resorting to ad hominem attacks on my character.

I look forward to your next patronising, name calling post. Make sure to call me childish again, and don't expect a response if you do. I've better things to do with my time than entertain that type of rubbish from self-styled intellectuals, who fall well short of that mark.

The "on the piss" thing may be a cultural misunderstanding, Iridian. The UK expression "taking the p*ss" is nothing whatever to do with alcohol consumption. In this use it describes an utterance intended to be ironic, or to be jokingly "pulling the leg" of the hearer.

With regard to the ad hominem, I don't think my posting is quite that, though I agree it comes close to the line.

But with the phrases "pretend that they don't......."
and "If we cannot be honest...."
what sort of response have you solicited do you think ?
"Oh, gulp, yes, he's seen through us. What self-deceivers we are...."
I dont think so.

The viewpoint you expressed is judgemental in its misattribution of motive to others, and simpleminded in the thesis it proposes.

The view of the world it offers still seems to me simplistic and childish. I didn't directly assume that you were childish, Iridian. I actually thought you were probably joking.

And the "childish simplicity of view" thing was not just aimed at you. I begin to see it elsewhere in this thread and in the forums. I think it a valuable insight worth sharing.

" Maybe the disagreement here is between a childish and an adult view of the world." was meant to refer to more than just your post. "Here" is the whole thread.

And being amazed and irritated is not quite the same as being "emotional". Though I suppose at least the second could be described as an emotion. I would prefer the word "reaction", without that extra implication of clouded judgement.

I don't normally jump on things this hard, Iridian, but your posting contained several elements which conspired together to increase the strength of my "irritable reaction". Coupling, as you did, a childish view with a childish accusation of dishonesty against those who disagree with you.

The accusation clinched the matter.

You could withdraw it ?

The moral philosophy of Europe from the 15th though 18th centuries is not a model in which I would claim a great deal of pride.

If you want to see the proximate source of American ideals, you have to look at the Lakota and the Iraquois. Our cultural ties to the old world are real, but much of what is "original" in American political philosophy originated with the native Americans.

And as a side note: nationalism is not natural. It's something that's carefully and deliberately indoctrinated into the young. Like racism or sexism, if you don't teach it, it never develops.

I think that to be true. Though loyalty to the immediate group of carers when small is obviously inbuilt, due to its survival value. Extending that to larger groups has to be learned. The larger the group, the more artificial it is, and the more indoctrination is required.

Re Native American influence - interesting - I don't know about that. Any good summary links/references, Arcadia ?

The record of the British in oppressing, brutalising and exploiting other peoples over the centuries was appalling, and British wealth, power and self-confidence was built upon it.
Moreover, it was always accompanied by sophisticated rhetoric about bringing civilisation, doing good, and suppressing chaos and "insurgency". Probably the majority of the implementers on the ground even believed it.

See, and I'm a Brit. How hard was that ?
I agree its harder to see, and to say, when it's happening in the present, with all the propaganda and misdirection live and in full flow.

Here's a bibliography that gathers many viewpoints on American Indian influence on political thought (including some who believe that there was no influence). The Iraquois confederation is the primary focus, but the Lakota built a similar confederation in the Great Plains.

I would be very comfortable with a reality where Native Americans contributed substantially to the U.S. political milieu, for various personal reasons. Unfortunately, I don't believe it, mostly because the evidence - uncovered, sifted, and analyzed by many good, trained, and relatively objective people of diverse scholarly backgrounds - says otherwise. The bibliography you've provided is peopled with activists like Vine Deloria, Jr. - whose wonderful Custer Died for Your Sins doesn't hide the fact that he is an extremely biased patriot for his people - and Dinesh D'Souza, whose agenda since his days at Dartmouth has always been to take down "liberal diversity myths," even at the cost of ignoring the truth.

It is true that the Iroquois and their federation had some influence on local New York settlers (as the Cherokees did in the South), but American colonials were far more affected by factors such as a frontier "vacuum of power," a lack of aristocracy, the European idea that land ownership equalled political rights, Protestant congregational governance, the writings of Scottish Whig political philosophers, classical Greek concepts of limited democracy, and ideas of the Enlightenment concerning egalitarianism, social status as a function of merit, and the "genius of the commonweal".

"Nationalism", btw, is not just bigotry, it's the sense of identification of an individual with a larger group than the village or rural locality where he or she lives - a larger, more sophisticated POV that replaced or augmented loyalty to the extended family and local farming community during the Industrial Revolution - and largely ended small-minded isolationism. As such, many have argued that nationalism is a necessary step toward "globalism", a sense of identification with all humanity as a species with common perceptions, ideas, and issues. Of course, nationalism has been greatly abused in the 20th century, by governments and by citizens....

Sorry I wasn't more clear in my references to the role of Enlightenment Era Philosophy as explict influences on the founding American ideals of Jefferson, Franklin, and crew. This is certainly distinct from actual practices in the European era which you mention.

Xenophobia as an inherent tendency, on the other hand, is as univerally human as urination, for any culture in any time ever studied (cf. Robert Wright The Moral Animal, Donald Brown Human Universals, Daly & Wilson Homocide, Steven Pinker The Blank Slate, Daniel Dennett Darwin's Dangerous Idea, Matt Ridley The Origins of Virtue, etc.) As all of these authors are keen to point out, just because it is an inherent tendency means neither that it is "good" or that we ought not endeavor to eliminate its expression.

As to your references to Native American Politcal Systems, I note that Jared Diamond soundly refutes the pleasant but largely unsupported myth of the idyllic Native American in Guns, Germs, and Steel showing that they were as warlike, environmentally destructive, and just plain nasty as most humans anywhere at any time but lacked the technology to be as effective at it as did their European contemporaries.

Though to reiterate, just because the human animal has such tendencies does not mean that we ought not strive to rise above them. Indeed, there are many who believe that an honest appraisal of such is likely the most fruitful course toward overcoming them.

While I have no patience for "noble savage" romanticism, I recognize that my American ancestors had much greater influence on the concept of democracy than recognized, probably as important as the Greek ogligarchy, the glaringly misnamed "enlightenment", or other Eurocentric influences.

And I have no interest in screeds that set out to demolish so-called "liberal multiculturalism", no matter how fashionable. "The Bell Curve" exhausted my patience with bigotry disguised as academic research.

Not hard for you, Ellie! lol

We just have different world views. Probably it's the old glass half-full or half-empty thing.

If you could choose anywhere in the world to live, Ellie, any country (in the present time), which would you choose? Assuming that you could choose what you consider, for whatever reasons, the best possible of all possible choices.

coco

Yes! Is what I was getting at when I said I love the Earth!

coco

P.S. Ellie - my babies were the best, absolutely the best, the most adorable, the cutest, the most wonderful little human beings that ANYONE could possibly EVER be gifted with. They were! And now they are the MOST beautiful and most wonderful and charming and fabulous young women! Cause they ARE!

You can't shake me on this at all. Of course, I recognize that all the other babies were ALMOST as wonderful, and the other young women are ALMOST as terrific, and so I of course understand how other people can have such pride in their babies, etc.

Because . . . I love them best. More than I love the other babies and young women. (And because they ARE the best, lol.)

Now there could be some country I just haven't been to which I might prefer, for various reasons, to this one. But this is the one I know best and I love it best. And while I would not go so far as to think it is THE best, I would certainly say there is none better.

As for my babies/young women, I'm afraid the rest of you are just going to have to face it . . . they really WERE the cutest, most adorable, etc., lol.

That works out okay too, though, cause I know most of the other parents are just as certain as I am that THEY have the greatest kids! So we're all happy. Glass at least half-full.

coco

I'm not entirely sure that we Americans don't desearve some of the bashing we get. Frankly, we're a bunch of asses. Let me give two anecdotes as an example.

1. Back in '89 I took a vacation in Jamaica on the Negril beach. Now one day, there I am on the beach lying in the sun drinking a Red Stripe (Hurray Beer!) and 10 feet away there's this, ahem, 50'ish southern gentleman with dare I say? a reddish neck (apparently I do dare) ranting and raving at the employees about some damn thing or other. I distinctly remember the words 'you people can't do a decent days work to save your lives'.

I have NEVER been so ashamed to be a white american in my life as I was right then. However, I saw more of that here and there around the island. We are pompous and arrogant. We see ourselves as the Lords of the Earth.

2. This is recent. I play WoW a lot, and if you read the forums you see what are very typical posts. You know, something along these lines:

"Class X is way overpowered! Nerf them"

"You think that because you were pwned. You stupid noob, learn to play your class"

"You suck"

Now, I then went over to the European WoW site and read their forums. Here's pretty much how the same conversation went over in England:

"Does anyone think class x is perhaps overpowered in XYZ situations?"

"Maybe, but it's important to learn to exploit their weakness"

"Yes, but those situations are rare"

"I do believe we'll have to agree to disagree"

"Very true mate - lol"



Now, I do believe we are indeed a great nation, perhaps the greatest yet seen on this planet. We are more or less fair to ur own people even though everyone has a differnt idea of what fair is. We are certainly the most powerful on this planet, both economically and militarily. And I beleive our form of government, aside from a few kinks, is perhaps the best the world has yet to offer.

However, we as a people are way too aggressive, violent, pompous and arrogant.