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Is our education system working?

Surreal Farber
Cat Herder
Join date: 5 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,059
05-07-2006 09:22
From: Jonas Pierterson
This says it all.


Suffrage petition


OMFG... is this for real?

:eek: :eek: :eek:
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Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
05-07-2006 09:26
Looks like it to me. I still don't think the government should pay for private school, though.
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milady Guillaume
Shhhh, I'm researching!
Join date: 28 Dec 2003
Posts: 696
05-07-2006 11:06
From: Champie Jack
You mean "who will pick up the tab in economically challenged areas?" Right?

The nice thing about vouchers is that government still provides the funds, but now there is the possibility for more competition in the educational marketplace.

How does anyone feel about competition in the school industry?


No, I don't mean economically challenged. I believe all schools are economically challenged in one way or many. Mr. Bill Gates might be able to provide a school with no challenges economically, but it won't fix the "system". Why do you think schools allowed soda companies in? It wasn't to get pop in the school, but to provide monies to the school. The same is to be said about corporate sponsors. WIthin a school district, monies from property tax can't be the only thing that funds a school system. It has to come from other sources. Government in probably every country contributes to their public school system. You want less gov't controls, then replace their financial contributions and let's have at it. The question that I posed was..where is that money going to come from? Certainly not the tax base on property tax. No one wants to pay more in sales tax to fund schools any more than it is already. Businesses aren't stepping up to the plate and offering to pay their share and say no to any tax breaks or abatements.

You want us to say yes to vouchers. Why? Why are vouchers the cure all? Are they really doing the job in Michigan? Do vouchers make me teach better because I have a "voucher" child in my class? This teacher frankly doesn't care how any of my students get to my class, I simply expect them to get TO my class on time with a pencil and with the expectation that they will do what they need to do to learn. As for Bill Gates and what to do with his money that he plans on "giving away". Send it to my school in Michigan. I have a shopping list all made out.
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Teeny Leviathan
Never started World War 3
Join date: 20 May 2003
Posts: 2,716
05-07-2006 11:16
From: Jonas Pierterson
This says it all.


Suffrage petition


People fell for this twice? Adam Corolla and Jimmy Kimmel did this a few years ago. People were clueless that time too. :(
Teeny Leviathan
Never started World War 3
Join date: 20 May 2003
Posts: 2,716
05-07-2006 11:54
From: milady Guillaume
You want us to say yes to vouchers. Why? Why are vouchers the cure all? Are they really doing the job in Michigan? Do vouchers make me teach better because I have a "voucher" child in my class? This teacher frankly doesn't care how any of my students get to my class, I simply expect them to get TO my class on time with a pencil and with the expectation that they will do what they need to do to learn. As for Bill Gates and what to do with his money that he plans on "giving away". Send it to my school in Michigan. I have a shopping list all made out.


More reasons why vouchers are pure, unfiltered bullshit:

Private schools have a limited capacity. In situations where many schools inside a school system fall below standards, private schools simply cannot absorb every student who qualifies for a voucher. To complicate matters, the best private schools have waiting lists. Parents actually have to register their infant children in advance to get a crack at placing their children at the "right" school.

Vouchers are not full scholarships. I covered that in a previous post.

Private schools are "private". Unlike public schools, private schools can pick and choose who they want to teach. If your kid is too Christian, too brown, too ghetto or too anything else, private schools can legally turn them down. Private means private. If they don't accept public funds they can do whatever they please.

A hypothetical scenario. Child A is the son of a single mother who makes $7.00/hr at Wal-Mart. He and his mother are on public assistance and live in Section 8 housing. He goes to a failing school, but has actually performed very well in all his classes. He's an honor student who performs well above his grade level. On the other hand, we have Child B. Child B does well, but at best, he lags behind Child A a little in science. Child B is the son of a state Senator who is active in the alumni association, contributes financially to the school, and the brand new 4 million dollar auditorium the school just built is named after Child B's grandmother. Now, who do you think is gonna be admitted if there is only one space left in the school? A paying "customer" or the kid with his little voucher and the hope of finding more money?

Vouchers are not equalizers. They do not guarantee a better education for all who are deprived. What they do accomplish is drain public funds from public schools. Money will not fix public schools, but it will help maintain school facilities. Children as well as teachers do not do very well when there is no heat, plaster is falling from the ceilings, and vermin the size of a large cat roam the schools. Again, money alone will not fix the problem. Draining money away from the problem will not fix it either. Contrary to what Dubya says, many children get left behind.
Champie Jack
Registered User
Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
05-07-2006 12:04
From: Siro Mfume
Just so we're clear, what kind of competition do you mean?

Currently there is already competition for a variety of factors in teaching. Different salaries in different areas. Differing times to tenure. Differing class sizes and grade levels. A wide array of benefits, or not. There's also differing moral and ethical values proscribed in differing areas.

Or were you talking about which schools kids can go to? I would think that saying that public schools do not already compete with private ones would be somewhat lunatic.

Please explain.


I was talking about the increased competition that school vouchers create.

I wouldn't exactly say it's "lunatic" to imagine a more vibrant competitive environment for all schools.
Champie Jack
Registered User
Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
05-07-2006 12:07
From: Richie Waves
Do soldiers really need good spelling?


This is the most ignorant thing I've seen on this thread.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that most soldiers servng in Iraq and Afghanistan are more educated and more successful in thier chosen profession than you.
Champie Jack
Registered User
Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
05-07-2006 12:15
From: milady Guillaume
No, I don't mean economically challenged. I believe all schools are economically challenged in one way or many. Mr. Bill Gates might be able to provide a school with no challenges economically, but it won't fix the "system". Why do you think schools allowed soda companies in? It wasn't to get pop in the school, but to provide monies to the school. The same is to be said about corporate sponsors. WIthin a school district, monies from property tax can't be the only thing that funds a school system. It has to come from other sources. Government in probably every country contributes to their public school system. You want less gov't controls, then replace their financial contributions and let's have at it. The question that I posed was..where is that money going to come from? Certainly not the tax base on property tax. No one wants to pay more in sales tax to fund schools any more than it is already. Businesses aren't stepping up to the plate and offering to pay their share and say no to any tax breaks or abatements.

You want us to say yes to vouchers. Why? Why are vouchers the cure all? Are they really doing the job in Michigan? Do vouchers make me teach better because I have a "voucher" child in my class? This teacher frankly doesn't care how any of my students get to my class, I simply expect them to get TO my class on time with a pencil and with the expectation that they will do what they need to do to learn. As for Bill Gates and what to do with his money that he plans on "giving away". Send it to my school in Michigan. I have a shopping list all made out.


Well, I can't argue with your "All schools are econimoically challenged." I was talking about the community in which the STUDENTS live.

This is not an attack on the quality of teachers or the schools, but it's about the idea that parents and children have options that they currently don't have: choose the school you want to send your child, public or private.

Again, you mention Bill Gates and the money "you " could use. This argument isn't about you or your school, it's about the students and parents. We could do a great service to our parents and children if we give them opportunity for the tax money they ALREADY paid.

Vouchers aren't a panacea, but they are a small step in recognizing that parents and children want more options and have unique needs.
milady Guillaume
Shhhh, I'm researching!
Join date: 28 Dec 2003
Posts: 696
05-07-2006 13:19
From: Champie Jack
Vouchers aren't a panacea, but they are a small step in recognizing that parents and children want more options and have unique needs.


Move. You have all the options in this mobile era. Better yet, investigate thoroughly before moving and pick the best spot for your children and move there. Competition between schools already exists. It's called sports.
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Champie Jack
Registered User
Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
05-07-2006 13:48
From: milady Guillaume
Move. You have all the options in this mobile era. Better yet, investigate thoroughly before moving and pick the best spot for your children and move there. Competition between schools already exists. It's called sports.


ok, I'll let that remark stand on its own.
Vares Solvang
It's all Relative
Join date: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 2,235
05-07-2006 14:07
From: Surreal Farber
Excellent topic and some really good, food-for-thought responses.

Feeling around to articulate this, but has anyone else noticed that in American popular culture, education is not respected unless it's about the latest fashion trend or music buzz?


I would even take this one step further. Pop culture today seems to be saying that not only is education not important, but that it's actually cool to be uneducated. “Keeping it real”, “street cred” ect.

It seems to be sending the message that if you try to get an education and better yourself, then you “ain't down” with the rest of us. That somehow you are betraying your friends.
Musuko Massiel
Registered User
Join date: 4 Nov 2005
Posts: 435
05-07-2006 14:12
"How does anyone feel about competition in the school industry?"

Education should not be treated like an industry. It should be treated like a vital service, like law creation and enforcement, public safety (fire service, etc), military protection and healthcare.

However...America seems to be doing well in turning all of those into industries too.

Private schools must create profit. Public schools do not have to. When the need for profit is involved, other needs often fall into second place.

If your private school has to choose between providing a good education, or cutting back on resources and staff in order to keep the books in the black, what do you think is going to happen?

Public schools often have that same issue, but at least their financial source is more stable, they do not have to worry about cost-effectiveness, profit and competing at the expense of educating students, they have set standards (in the UK, you have to have Qualified Teacher Status to work in a state school. To work in a public (meaning private) school, you don't), and, most importantly, the quality of your education isn't decided by how much money your parents have in their pockets.

Musuko.
Andy Grant
Registered User
Join date: 20 May 2005
Posts: 140
05-07-2006 15:25
The whole agenda is to diseducate, or educate in oposite direction. Just as it was back in the time when (the same) people were running USSR. Pump&Dump - the most profitable (prostitue-like) business. USSR used to have the greatest talents in science etc... wich later were 'traded' into USA, then created worlds best both educational, religional and political system. But now they realize it's time to get the $11Trillion back to their wallets.

Before the "Federal Reserve Act", this was said in europe:

"Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws."
- by Mayer Amschel Rothschild

Before our democratic and comunistic civilizations, this was said i the greek empire:

"Democracy passes into despotism." - Plato

"Democracy... is a charming form of government, full of variety and disorder; and dispensing a sort of equality to equals and unequals alike." - Plato

"Dictatorship naturally arises out of democracy, and the most aggravated form of tyranny and slavery out of the most extreme liberty." - Plato

Despite those warnings we tested the federal reserve act (wich now is showing it did what Rothschild's suspected it'd do), we also test the democracy thing.

I have one simple theory on how to fix the European Civilization (usa = european colony, i f you look back) ;)...

FORGET ALL YOU HAVE LEARNED ABOUT DEMOCRACY FOR A FEW DAYS AND FIX THE DAMN CONSTITUTION, AND LOCK IT IN A CRACKSAFE SAFE!

Also, look at this badass: CIA Director Porter Goss, current politics made the last cia boss to resign 1,5 years ago.. now this dude can't do his job for more than 20 months. And i doubt Goss, can't handle the job, it's just that they can't handle the truth. And the truth is gonna be totaly unique. (http://www.cia.gov/cia/public_affairs/press_release/2006/pr05052006.htm)

Education is the key to POWER, loose it, and all the power's given to you will disappear.

God bless American people!
Champie Jack
Registered User
Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
05-07-2006 15:49
From: Andy Grant
The whole agenda is to diseducate, or educate in oposite direction. Just as it was back in the time when (the same) people were running USSR. Pump&Dump - the most profitable (prostitue-like) business. USSR used to have the greatest talents in science etc... wich later were 'traded' into USA, then created worlds best both educational, religional and political system. But now they realize it's time to get the $11Trillion back to their wallets.

Before the "Federal Reserve Act", this was said in europe:

"Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws."
- by Mayer Amschel Rothschild

Before our democratic and comunistic civilizations, this was said i the greek empire:

"Democracy passes into despotism." - Plato

"Democracy... is a charming form of government, full of variety and disorder; and dispensing a sort of equality to equals and unequals alike." - Plato

"Dictatorship naturally arises out of democracy, and the most aggravated form of tyranny and slavery out of the most extreme liberty." - Plato

Despite those warnings we tested the federal reserve act (wich now is showing it did what Rothschild's suspected it'd do), we also test the democracy thing.

I have one simple theory on how to fix the European Civilization (usa = european colony, i f you look back) ;)...

FORGET ALL YOU HAVE LEARNED ABOUT DEMOCRACY FOR A FEW DAYS AND FIX THE DAMN CONSTITUTION, AND LOCK IT IN A CRACKSAFE SAFE!

Also, look at this badass: CIA Director Porter Goss, current politics made the last cia boss to resign 1,5 years ago.. now this dude can't do his job for more than 20 months. And i doubt Goss, can't handle the job, it's just that they can't handle the truth. And the truth is gonna be totaly unique. (http://www.cia.gov/cia/public_affairs/press_release/2006/pr05052006.htm)

Education is the key to POWER, loose it, and all the power's given to you will disappear.

God bless American people!


Perhaps you can explain what it is you are trying to say in simpler words that the lesser educated can understand
Andy Grant
Registered User
Join date: 20 May 2005
Posts: 140
05-07-2006 16:04
Ithink i'm too diseducated to describe the problem myself. But this interrested my brain:

Look at the comment on the very bottom made by FactSeek on 05.05.2006 at [ 22:04 ] on this site:

http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/87183
Champie Jack
Registered User
Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
05-07-2006 16:21
From: Andy Grant
Ithink i'm too diseducated to describe the problem myself. But this interrested my brain:

Look at the comment on the very bottom made by FactSeek on 05.05.2006 at [ 22:04 ] on this site:

http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/87183


Well, I'll just have to encourage others to read your posts, follow your links and make their own decision about you and your views.
Andy Grant
Registered User
Join date: 20 May 2005
Posts: 140
05-07-2006 16:47
From: Champie Jack
Well, I'll just have to encourage others to read your posts, follow your links and make their own decision about you and your views.


Btw. there are more other strangers like that dude from around the globe, at that site, the dude with the bible, prety cool comob of speculations all at once. It's a very open speculation, more open speculations can be found on their site. Thats quiet a sandbox of open opinions.

Long live free speech
Allana Dion
Registered User
Join date: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,230
05-07-2006 18:35
From: Andy Grant
The whole agenda is to diseducate, or educate in oposite direction. Just as it was back in the time when (the same) people were running USSR. Pump&Dump - the most profitable (prostitue-like) business. USSR used to have the greatest talents in science etc... wich later were 'traded' into USA, then created worlds best both educational, religional and political system. But now they realize it's time to get the $11Trillion back to their wallets.

From: Andy Grant

Look at the comment on the very bottom made by FactSeek on 05.05.2006 at [ 22:04 ] on this site:

http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/87183



*blinks, peruses text again, blinks*

It could be my own simple public school education...... Did I miss something or did we just dive waaayy off topic?
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Tod69 Talamasca
The Human Tripod ;)
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,107
05-07-2006 22:06
From: Allana Dion
*blinks, peruses text again, blinks*

It could be my own simple public school education...... Did I miss something or did we just dive waaayy off topic?


I *sorta* get what he's saying but still working on a legible (?) way to say it myself.
Kiari LeFay
Lemon Flavored Fish Treat
Join date: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 223
05-08-2006 09:49
If parents don't care about education, values, and morals, nothing a teacher in the current school system does will effect anything. Teachers are too hobbled by parents who insist that it couldn't be their innocent perfect child causing a problem, the problem must be somewhere else. And with the best teachers having options to go elsewhere, get paid substantially better and most likely receive more appreciation... well, teaching is in part becoming an altrusitic profession. Teachers still get a pretty nice wage in my area though, probably not as much as they deserve, but their pension is amazing.

I can't believe the people that are passed through the public education system. On Remembrance Day in my last year of high school (grade 13 in Ontario, though it doesn't exist now) one of my classmates listened to Flander's Field and then raised his hand and asked the teacher "Miss, how do poppies blow?" Complete with puffing out his cheeks and pretending to blow. I got asked to leave the classroom when I laughed so hard I actually fell out of my seat.

Of course, it doesn't get much better in the post-secondary schools either, where I have had to debate with students on why ebonics cannot be used in a term paper, or on how they can be the best accountant on earth, but if they can't string together a sentence to explain their work to a client then they'll look like an idiot. Some of my ESL students write better than the first year English majors.

I also want to smack every teacher who has ever taught someone "You put a comma where you take a breath in a sentence" instead of sitting down and actually teaching them the fricken rules.

(end rant)
Ananda Sandgrain
+0-
Join date: 16 May 2003
Posts: 1,951
05-08-2006 09:54
I think if you would like to ensure that children are learning to communicate in a competent, professional manner, you need to look at more than just the public vs. private competition issue. You should examine the method that is actually being used to teach your children how to read and write.

I don't know how popular this is anymore, but in many parts of the U.S. there has been a method called "Whole Language" in vogue. Among the tenets of this method of learning is one called creative or inventive spelling. Basically the idea is that you encourage children to write and come up with their own ideas of how words should look, and don't worry about getting the correct spelling until later on.

http://www.nrrf.org/42_invented_spelling.html

From: someone
Since the advent of the "Whole Language" (WL) approach to literacy development, option five above has become the procedure of choice. The guiding principle of WL is that school children best learn to spell in the same informal, individualized, and natural manner they learned to speak at home, as preschoolers. Therefore, there is very little, if any, direct and systematic teaching of spelling in bona fide WL classrooms.

One of the suppositions of WL is that children learn to spell better by inventing eccentric spellings of words, than by being taught how to spell words correctly in a direct and systematic way. It is found, that if urged to do so, beginning spellers ordinarily will create spellings in the progressive stages: (1) letters are used randomly—candy is spelled SCZ; (2) some of the correct consonant letters are produced—bottom is spelled BT; (3) a vowel letter also is produced—bottom is spelled BODM; and (4) the total word is spelled phonetically—dress is spelled DRES.

It is assumed in WL that if children are allowed to invent the spellings of words they will learn to spell them correctly faster than otherwise is possible. Advocates of inventive spelling thus argue that if children’s "natural" progress through the above "developmental" stages of learning to spelling is interrupted by direct and systematic teaching of correct spellings, children’s abilities to learn to spell correctly will be handicapped.

It also is charged that direct and systematic spelling instruction will interfere negatively with children’s volume of writing, and their abilities to compose creatively. Invented spelling is touted as a far more humane and pressure-free way to develop children’s correct spelling, and to stimulate their written compositions.

However, the novel supposition made by WL about the supposed necessity of replacing direct and systematic spelling instruction with invented spelling has not been experimentally verified. The great preponderance of empirical evidence on children’s spelling development indicates that children learn to spell correctly faster if taught to do so in a direct and systematic way.


Looking around the web, it seems this idea is falling out of favor, but it wouldn't be surprising to find out that in the meantime we've got a whole crop of teenagers and young adults that have the habit of spelling things however they feel like spelling them.
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Rose Karuna
Lizard Doctor
Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,772
05-08-2006 10:17
From: Lordfly Digeridoo
Shit in, shit out is my opinion.

Most folks coming into the public school system simply don't care. Their parents, also not caring, didn't raise them with the proper respect learning/education should have; not teaching them ABCs, not helping them learn/enjoy reading, not explaining to them how stuff around them works, and so on. If they're taken from that environment and plopped into another system that also doesn't really care (they're just a numbered pupil on a spreadsheet in some bean counter's computer), they're not going to extract much out of it.

Proper education starts at home, and at a very young age. I grew up with a gigantic library to sift through; I learned to read via Mad Magazine and Calvin and Hobbes with the help of my encouraging parents (Dad? What's "superfluous" mean?), who also took the time to explain to me how stuff worked as best they could.

I became overjoyed at reading, and going to the library every other week to pick more books to read. I used to read history textbooks just for fun.

My friend down the road, though, his parents didn't really teach to him the importance of learning and the joys of reading; as such he dropped out of high school by Grade 10. I think he sells bicycles now and smokes a lot of weed.

Yeah, I was a bookworm; what the bullies would call a "geek" or a "nerd" or whatever. But I also managed to squeeze a huge amount of learning out of a "broken" public education system, while the bullies stumbled through elementary, middle, and high school.

Did they pass? Certainly; the GPA needed to fail my local school is a staggering 0.33. Yes, that's a D- average. But it's biting them in the ass now; not being able to balance a checkbook, or scratching their heads over their fine-print laden credit card statements because of the big words takes its toll in the 21st century. I blame their parents.

It's the parents' responsibility to evoke a sense of wonder and enjoyment out of the mere act of learning and acquiring knowledge; otherwise there's nothing a school can do for the child.


This is SO true. You can argue all day about what is wrong with the public school system but if the parents don't think that it's important for their children to learn then even the best school system in the world won't teach them.

Children living in situations of extreme impoverishment or addiction often have parents with all their energies focused on making ends meet or focused on their addictions.

Inspiring a desire to learn and guiding their child’s learning behavior is the last of their worries or thoughts.

Schools are not, nor were they probably intended to be in a position to pick up the slack for the parents in this area. It is because they try, that I think the quality of education sinks even further. Schools should provide structure, material and instruction. Parents should handle behavior, inspiration and guidance (roughly speaking).

.
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Selene Gregoire
Eyes of the Wolf
Join date: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 681
05-08-2006 16:34
From: milady Guillaume
Each day they learn to spell "a lot" as two words.



I'm glad this particular thing was brought up. Back when I was in school we were taught differently. Back then "alot" meant several or an abundance of, and "a lot" reffered to a plot of land, etc. I've been in the habit of using "alot" for more than 30 years because that is what I was taught. Today, kids are being taught something different. Makes you realize just how different things are now than what they were 30 plus years ago.

Will I change my usage of "alot"? Probably not. It was a lesson I have never forgotten that was basically beaten into my head by one teacher. It wasn't a bad thing. It was just a lesson that was emphasized because so many at that time were misusing a lot and alot. My continued use of alot is in a sense my way of honoring that teacher for caring enough to make a point of teaching us what was proper for the times. A good teacher in other words.

However, I do agree that it is the parent's and children's responsiblity for the child's education and desire to learn. Teachers can only provide the means and the tools. It's up to the parents and children to make good use of them.
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"Half of what I say is meaningless; but I say it so that the other half may reach you."

"In the depth of my soul there is a wordless song."

Kahlil Gibran


milady Guillaume
Shhhh, I'm researching!
Join date: 28 Dec 2003
Posts: 696
05-08-2006 17:55
There is more competition between schools other than sports. The public school systems have report cards that they are accountable for. This expectation also includes the requirement to show improvement. Add increasing numbers of content standards that must be taught, an increase in graduation requirements, and less staff to do it all in causes strain all across the board. Administrators have an increasing need to keep students in school, to lower the drop out rates as that effects the report card. The loss of students, even those that do not want to be in school is a loss of revenue. Enough revenue to place pressure on the teaching staff to do their best at teaching, to reach the difficult student, to keep them in school. Families looking at report cards and degrees of improvement take a toll in "schools of choice". They may select one schoool over another based on those results. Lost revenue for one school, a gain for the other.

Maybe going the route of European schools where students are tracked is the answer. For now tho, the U.S. public schools aren't designed that way. May discussions like this continue as it can only raise awareness and help the system. In essence, they help teach the child.
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Champie Jack
Registered User
Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
05-08-2006 19:06
n/m it wasnt relevant to the discussion
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