Christianity is Criminal

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/03/23/afghan.christian.ap/index.html

I love watching the religious kill each other off.. There is something so ironic about that.

Briana Dawson

Hate monger!

Am Not!

Yep, had a thread on it /112/66/95586/1.html

Also, both of the people to start the threads unnecessarily sign their postings. Suspicious, no?

One of the things wrong about these sort of things is that it sometimes gets out of hand and 6 million people get killed.

Did you know that the worldwide Jewish population is still below the 1938 level?

Gah! ever wish you were in less of a post-y mood sometimes?

I've long thought that the oft-repeated "6 million" number - although accurate - to be perhaps the most self-segregating, racist, and divisive and ultimately self-harming bits of propoganda that I've seen. It is true that the Nazi regime concentrated much of its Holocaust rhetoric against Jews specifically, but the fact of the matter is the Nazi genocide had a toll of about 12 million total people. And that's forgetting the other 43 million dead that WWII left in its wake.

Why do I consider this self-harming? Because it draws attention away from the other half of the victims of the Nazi genocide and I think the world's peoples might be a bit more sympathetic if not for this intentional division by two. Perhaps not. I must be very careful to say that I'm not trying to diminish the death of the 6 million Jews, because I'm most assuredly not. I'm trying to point out that intentionally or not, the post-Holocaust accountancy has served to diminish the deaths of the other 6 million.

In some sense, I'm not terribly surprised as this is a culture that specifically admonishes its adherents to inculcate its children with the belief that they are God's "chosen" (Deuteronomy 7) above all others and have an annualized ritual to reinforce this message and recount historic oppression (Exodus 13:14-16) and this has been going on for about 4000 years. Yeah, sure, almost every people has believed themselves to be the people and everyone else to be "them", but I've not seen another example of such clear institutionalization of the idea and the attendant persecution complex in any other culture. As a self-perpetuating system of interlocking beliefs, it works extremely well; but as an ideology amidst a shrinking globe and increasingly interdependent and multi-cultural environment I do wonder if it is becomming self-subverting and outdated.

So is this the rant of an anti-semite? Possibly. In my defense I happen to have been born into a family that practiced that annual orgy of ancient persecution rememberence. I recall thinking at the time that it seemed horribly racist and in direct contradiction with the messages I was getting during the rest of the year, and frankly, I'm a little embarrassed to admit to this heritage. However, I don't hold the same racist beliefs of 200 generations of my predecessors, so please don't hold their "sins" against me.

I'll bet you don't like dentists either.

But we are the Chosen People. Why can't others accept that?

Bringing attention to half the victims of the Nazis in no way diminishes the crimes committed against the other half. In fact it raises people's awareness of the crimes committed by the Nazis. If I talk about a crime that was committed against me, it doesn't diminish the importance of crimes committed by the same criminal against you. In fact, it would raise awareness of that criminal's behavior.

And besides, the thread was about inter-religious conflict. The murder of 6 million Jews in the 20th century by Christians is relevant here.



Your understanding of the "chosenness" of the Jews isn't at all accurate. For a classical interpretation I recommend Moses Maimonides' "Guide for the Perplexed". For something more recent try Rabbi Milton Steinberg's "Basic Judaism."

The other thing I think you're missing is that your perception of history is colored by the impact of the Holocaust on today's Jews. It is very possible what you see as a persecution complex is just the simple reaction of a people who went through a horrific genocide.

That's true, but I think Introvert makes some excellent points. A persecution complex is a very handy tool for those who wish to perpetuate tribalism over humanism. Talking about the holocaust in terms other than specifically about Jews wouldn't be nearly as effective in that regard and I think it's hard to argue that the reason Jews keep the focus on the Jews isn't tribalistic... in a sense, the very same kind of tribalism that caused the holocaust in the first place. Christians in the US have learned the value of a persecution complex very well. They promote and perpetuate theirs more and more all the time, which I've always found bizarre considering they comprise such an enormous majority of the population. I would never think of diminishing the horrors that were visited on the Jewish people but I have to wonder will that still be such a primary focus in fifty years or a hundred? There are few ethnic or tribal groups that haven't been the victims of genocide or slavery at one time in history or another but don't define themselves or their place in the world by it anymore. It makes me wonder how long before time erodes it, or how long things are perpetuated not out of fear or sorrow but because it's useful.

The Holocaust is about Jews. The Nazi goal was to eliminate the entire Jewish people. They nearly succeeded. It isn't tribalism for Jews to find that event significant. It is significant. Nearly half the Jews in the world died in the Holocaust. Imagine nearly half the English dying in extermination camps, or half the French or half the Turks. How about half the Americans? The two most important events in Jewish history in the last century were the Holocaust and the establishment of a Jewish state. The impact on Jewish culture has been huge. Give it a century or so before you start calling it a persecution complex. Right now, it's just the simple reaction to having been horribly persecuted.

And the "but it's happened to everybody" argument is specious. It hasn't. Have the English, the French, the Spanish, the Russians, the Arabs, the Japanese, the Chinese, the Persians been the victims of genocide? Has anyone set up camps that eliminated half the Koreans in the world? How about the Thais or Icelanders? There have been other genocides, but they've been few and far between. And their impacts on the peoples involved have been enormous. It's more than understandable that the Holocaust has impacted Jewish culture. It's not a persecution complex if you've really been persecuted.

The odd persecution complex found in the US among some Christians is a complex. I believe it's a result of the constant splintering of Protestant denominations. It doesn't seem to play much of a role in American Catholicism, and that is odd, because until quite recently Catholics in America were treated worse than Protestants. When only your small group has the real truth you start to see yourself as up against overwhelming odds, and I think that that is what leads to this persecution complex.

Uhh, Romany were also targets of the Holocaust, so it was also a genocide to them. Ive yet to hear a Gypsy talking about the holocaust not mention the other victims, be they Jewish, handicapped, mentally ill, or whatever.
Yes Nazi Germany wanted to wipe out Judaism, but it wanted to wipe out a lot more.
Do you think if those fucks had won the war and moved onto Africa, that there would be any black people there today?

The Rape of Nanking perpetrated by the Japanese on the Chinese was no picnic either.

Or how about the systematic murder of Native Americans by European settlers and their descendants?

Let's not forget who suffered most in terms of total loss of life in WWII, the Russians. Or that Stalin signed more lives away with his little red pen and ledger than probably anyone else in history.

I think that focusing on a number too much can be detrimental, and distract from the real issue, which is man's inhumanity towards man, regardless of who is on the receiving end. So my thoughts fall closer into line with those of Introvert.

Yes, the numbers are important to a certain extent. It's just zeroing on that figure constantly, can not only numb people to it, but draw away from the other valuable lessons to be learned, imho.

How did this divert into a discussion of the Holocaust?

When I read this: '"Rejecting Islam is insulting God. We will not allow God to be humiliated. This man must die," said cleric Abdul Raoulf, who is considered a moderate' I did wonder what he might have said had he been an extremist.

Tis the nature of forum conversation. Happens in RL too, at least in my experience, and I don't mean with the holocaust specifically. Convos just morph.

I agree with your sentiment about moderate vs. extremist. That mindset is horrifying, and no nation should be allowed to call itself civilized if that sort of thing is not only talked about, but realized through action. It's no better than the thinking of other people throughout history who have effected religious persecution on those who do not hold the same religious views, and if anyone needs to be eliminated, it's folks who think that way.

Look a little closer to home, read up on the history of the Cherokee Indian tribe.

-small sinpet-

Forced to walk thousands of miles, some beaten and raped on the way. Also as recently as up to the late 50s, children forcebly removed from their Cherokee families to "weed out" the native Cherokee language and traditions. What is left of the native language and how many can correctly and fully speak it is a mark of shame on this country. This is only one tribe, there are countless others that have been wiped completely out, and others that have seen similar treatment by the hand of the good ole Bible toteing US of A......

So moral of this story, religion is not criminal, its the people who use it as a weapon and preach it till our ears bleed.....then don't fully follow it themself, just only when it suits their needs do they actively push it.

Yep, and it's not even just religion. It's tribalism in all its forms, be it religion, nationalism, ethnocentrism, racism, politics... whenever people put their membership in a group above their membership in the human race it always leads to trouble. It's always a vicious cycle because the victims of the atrocities wraught in the name of tribalism tend to react by becoming more insular and tribalistic themselves. Religion is just one item in a long list of ways people subvert humanism in favor of tribalism. History is full of the tragic results. Still, after thousands of years, we learn nothing.

As for this minister's wife who killed her husband, it's highly unlikely that it had much, if anything at all, to do with religion or tribalism.

God is either Love, or not.

If not - then kill for whatever blindness floats your ignorance.

More humans on this planet have been killed in God's name then in any other "isms".


God is either Love - or not. Once humanity's heart is awakened to One Love, the blindness will end, the killing will stop.

Heh, When I read that part I was think of that old line comedians use on stage= "Wow. Tough crowd!"

Division, xenophobia, violent hatred of those who 'aren't like us', are endemic to the human condition. Probably originated with our primitive cave-man ancestors, who had to do battle with saber-tooth tigers and Sleestaks for vital resources like salt licks and spaghetti trees. I really don't look for it to go away... well, I was going to say 'any time soon', but really 'ever' is probably closer to the mark.

We like it too much, you see.

If we divide the world into 'us' and 'them', we get to abrogate responsibility. 'Us' didn't screw up the economy/nuclear family/last week's family reunion! It was 'them' Jews/homosexuals/Uncle Ted and his inbred pack of wolf-children. We can continue to feel good about ourselves, no matter how horrible conditions get for us, as long as we can point the 'them' finger at someone else and yell 'j'accuse'.

Not "ironic". "Predictable".

Hey! Someone send Pat Robertson over there too!! I think his popularity among the nation of Islam might help!

I read an article a few months back that discussed the increasing line in the sand between Republicans and Democrats in the US. The author had a very good point that's applicable to any group, be it political, religious or national.

The theory he floated was that group leaders (consciously or not) "tap into" the instinctual preservation and protection of family that all humans have hardwired into them. The key is to make the group a substitution, either literal or metaphorical, of the family. The same instinctive protective feelings that helped humans raise their young to adulthood (much like many other animals) becomes the "us against them" feelings at the bottom of expressions of intolerance and jingoism.

Talking about one event doesn't diminish other events. Talking about the Jewish Holocaust doesn't detract or minimize Hitler's other crimes. Not talking does. Notice how discussion of the Jewish Holocaust has led to the discussion of other genocides in this thread? And the fact that somebody has heard one group talk about their history, but hasn't heard from another group is irrelevant. Yes, we have all heard Jews talking about the Holocaust. No, we haven't all heard Roma or Cherokee talking about the genocides committed against them. Is it because they aren't talking about it, or is it because we aren't listening?

The Jewish Holocaust (the Hebrew word for the genocide is Shoah, meaning Disaster) had a huge impact on the world. It led to the founding of the state of Israel and we all know what that has meant to world events over the last half century. Other genocides haven't had that broad of an impact on the world. That's why you hear more about it than other genocides.

All in all discussion of the Nazi atrocities against the Jews has lead to higher awareness of the atrocities committed against other peoples. That's a good thing.

If the comment about the Romany is referring to my post, i did not say it wasnt talked about, what i said was that yhe Roma dont talk about the holocaust as though they were its only victims.
I'd go so far as to say most Jews dont think about it that way.
As i see it, the concentration on the Jewish victims of the holocaust, by some individuals is more of a zionist thing.
The slaughter of 6 000 000 jews was a vile sickening thing, but so was the slaughter of the othere 6 000 000 in the camps, be they Roma, handicapped, Psychiatrically ill, communists or whatever.
Any focus on one group diminishes the total horror of the holocaust.
while some may focus on the 6 000 000 jews killed, I focus on the 12 000 000 human beings, jew and gentile.