Palestinians deliberately harrassed by sonic booms

o.O then wut about all the bombings that occur randomly all the time. security isnt so high for nothing there. getting in or out of israel takes about 2 hours alone of security checks and bomb prevention. even if its terrorist attacks and not organised its more than likely that they are and have been victems of violence.

edit: oh yah, sonic booms.. try living near an airport.. is that noise warfare too?

LOL.. so, Israel is an apartheid state, because people from Israel went to south africa on vacation.

People from lots of countries went to south africa on vacation.

What part of his statement concerning Israeli citizenship was incorrect though? He stated that most palestinians are not actually citizens of Israel, and that is most definitely correct.


I don't really see many people who say that Israel is some kind of innocent little cherub in this whole ordeal... but I do believe that MANY people beleive that Israel has no right to exist at all, and that they should just "go away" somehow. That the Palestinians are somehow the ones who really have a right to that territory.

Many of these people simply do not fault terrorists in the Palestinian territories, and I feel that is a mistake.... It's just as bad as not faulting israel for the kind of stuff this thread is about. Indeed, it's WORSE, because they're actually killing people.

Okay, last post because this is total flame war junk anyway and you guys aren't really listening either...

(Also I am butting in on someone elses debate here. )

As far as I understand, the point (vis a vis apartheid and Israel), is that Israel has a graduated citizenship based on your race. Even if you are an Israeli citizen, if you are an Arab Israeli, you do not have the same rigbhts as a Jewish Israeli. Your race (Jew or Arab), is stamped on your citizenship card. The contra argument (as far as I understand), is that this is technically not "race" but religion (Christian is marked as well I beleive).

However bigotry is bigotry regardless of the particular group involved and the reality on the ground is that there are several unequal "flavors" of Israeli citizenship. The main day to day use of this data is precisely the seperation of Arab and Jew Israelis. Not many (if any) other countries practice this segregation of races/religions, in fact, one of the only other ones that historically *did* do this, was South Africa. Thus the (somewhat valid) comparisons to apartheid.

In relation to South Africa, as I said before it's not just that some folks vacationed there, it's that there is and has been for many many years a very "tight" reciprocal realtionship between the two states. It's all quite documented, I don't have the facts at my fingertips as I am at work and, (as I said) on butting in tangentially on someone elses argument.

I'm not trying to be offensive here and I think it's always hard to talk sense when we are talking about generalities and marking entire countries as this or that. At some point the statements just become ludicrous. However...

I feel it's perfectly valid to wonder at what kind of country would not only *not* have a problem with Apartheid South Africa, but buck the trend of the entire planet to do massive business with them and further to have that business primarily be the selling of arms to the people actually doing the oppressing. To have the second most important part of the business relationship be relaxing around the pool while black slaves fix your drinks, I find personally offensive. I dont understand how any "normal" person could feel comfortable relaxing in a slave resort myself.

Please remember that thousands of REAL PEOPLE died in South Africa during this period, and the slaves serving drinks at the Israeli resort spas, were probably not as happy as their smiles might have indicated.

I believe that is simply incorrect.

There is no graduated citizenship in Israel.. It's simply harder to become a citizen if you're a non-jew. This is because the Law of Return allows all jews to become citizens of Israel immediately. But there ARE Arab citizens of Israel, and they have full citizenship.




While I really have no idea if what you're saying is true, I can offer the notion that perhaps it was because people in Israel encounter pretty massive anti-semetism when they visit middle-eastern or european countries.

Well, there's afew points that I thought I should clear up... and sorry Deanne, you may not plan to respond here anymore, but I am still going to be a bad kitty and respond to you directly anyway.

1)Jews and Arabs are not race. I am not certain where you got this curious concept, probebly in America where you guys still have the whole "black versus white" thing going on. But over here, we got people from almost every possible color, and we're all pretty much one people from that respect.

We got pale whites, browns, dark tanned, asians, mid-easterns, europians, and - oh my, the shock - some africans. The latter are abit rare, but thats slowly changing.

The following fact just may cause you to lose your ballance and fall off your chair, but the truth is that we do, infact, have some pure 100% arab entities in our own goverment, representing the arab slice of the population that carry israeli citizenship.

We have several villages of israeli arabs who live among us and do not, infact, suffer any special "segregration". They get exactly the same treatment as the average israeli citizen, with only one exception: Israel Arabs may not serve in the Israeli military, to avoid a situation where they will have to fight against their own people.

And thats about it.

Other then this point.. they're just like anyone else in here. And I am not talking out of my ass. As part of his line of work, my father conducts business with israeli arabs on a regular basis. He meets them regulary and I got to meet them myself. They are good people, and are treated with respected.

Sorry to disappoint you.

2)On regards to the trade with Africa.. this bit is quite intresting actually. It may have slipped your mind, but quite recently ago, the Arab nations have initiated a boycott on Israel, and anyone who trades with it.

Companies who traded with Israel were black-listed and were forbidden of trading with said arab countries.

As result, a large number of companies boycotted Israel publicly, and disconnected business relations. This have obviously caused quite an issue in our economy. As last resort, we established business ties with countries that did not participate in the boycott. Among which - you guessed it: South Africa.

Did we like what was going on over there? Not really. Did it have anything to do with our choice to do it anyway? Nope. When you're in distress, you do what you have to do in order to survive. And that was definetly a time of distress.

On regards to South Africa being a prefered vacation resort... not as far as I can tell. This may have been true before I was born, I am not certain. But these days, people seem to prefer France, England, Turkey, Capris, Greece and India (quite exotic). China is started to look like a pretty appealing travel destination, too,and I hear Japan is literaly packed with Israelis... on the other hand, Africa isnt much of a destination. Most people perceive it as a "un-hygenic jungle", and you know how jewish mothers are when it comes to being obsessed with keeping stuff clean and germ free.

And... last point to remember about business...

During the recent invasion to Iraq, you Americans have uncovered some intresting fact: During Saddam's reigim, many American and Europian companies have been having secret business ties with said dictators. From supplies to weapons to technology to contract jobs... and those were not shady organisations, either. Oh no - these were respected, well established, well known companies.

What were they doing there?

Making money, ofcourse. Where there's profits, ethics gets pushed to the closet.

Everybody trades with everybody.

Taco you I know love ya, but I have to disagree with you on this.

They dehumanized themselfs when they decided to act wtih out any shred of humanity towards others. People who behave in such a matter are not part of my human race.

Rox

My father was part of the training cadre preparing for the invasion of Japan.
Our own goverment predicted 80% casuality rates for both sides.
The bomb saved lifes.

Rox

They are though Roxie - they just don't see another way to do it. And I love you more.

Couldn't have dropped the first one 10 miles off shore? Still love ya

Dianne, I'm not mad, just passionate. Please, if there are holes in my argument, point them out. I like how you "won't go there" and go just far enough to make the accusation but not far enough to have to support it. Convenient, huh? Reminds me of a man from the 1950's, "I have in this document the names of communists" and he stops there. To mis-quote another moron, I say, if you've got a real response to my argument, "Bring it on!" LOL



Not mad, again, just passionate. And I'm quite relaxed. Did I say that Israel shouldn't be ashamed of supporting the apartheid regime in South Africa? And where did you get the idea that Israel had "no problems" dealing with SA? I just tried to explain why they supported it. I tried to point out it was not because Israel was racist, as you claimed, but because Israel was desperate for allies and trading partners. I notice that you neglected to mention that the USA and other nations had warm relations with South Africa until the 1970's.



Oh good, let's not engage in denial. Let's not mischaracterize other people's posts either while we're at it. You stated that Israel was an apartheid state. I gave evidence to the contrary. I never said Israel "had nothing to do with apartheid" nor did I use words to that effect. I said Israel was not an apartheid state. Part of your proof was that Israel supported South Africa. I gave reasons why they did. And which facts are you bringing to light that the media suppresses? That Israel and South Africa, two pariah states in the 1970's and 1980's worked together for their own ends? They did. Was it wrong for Israel to support a racist regime? That's a fair question. But your claim that Israel is an apartheid regime and proof of that is their support for South Africa is unsupported by the evidence.

Even after the first bomb was dropped, the pro-war party in the Imperial Cabinet believed that the US only had one bomb and that they could negotiate a peace deal that would keep the militarists in power. It wasn't until the second bomb was dropped that the Emperor over ruled the Cabinet and started peace negotiations. Imagine the destruction that the invasion of Japan would have caused. Conventional weapons can be devastating. Have you ever seen photos of Dresden after WWII? Imagine the lives lost. That would have been the most agonizing decision of my life, to try to end it quick with atomic weapons or, as the Pentagon predicted at the time, another two or three years of war. Remember that the scientists of the time didn't understand the deadly effect radiation would have on the survivors of the initial blasts. Today the use of weapons of mass destruction is much better understood. Back then things weren't so black and white, just shades of gray. We're lucky not to have had to make those decisions. We are fortunate that the Japanese and American peoples were able to overcome the feelings the war caused. The US-Japan alliance has helped make the world a more stable place. If I sound like I don't know if the dropping of the bombs was the right thing to do or not, guess what, I don't. I do know that the world is a better place with a peaceful, democratic Japan.

I think this is broadly correct. Israel is not so stupid as to openly pass laws which are unquestionably racist.

It's done indirectly, via exactly the one distinction Crystal underlines. The law simply gives huge number of extra advantages, rights, grants, discounts, to anyone who has served in the armed forces. Seems so reasonable doesn't it, so easy to defend ? Yet it is the key to substantial discrimination, whilst masquerading as concern for the Arab's position.

And of course it becomes a fine judgement, rather than an obvious crime. They can always deny that the benefits are inappropriate in nature and excessive in amount. If this was honest, they could offer those refused entry to the armed forces other ways of earning the same benefits, away from the military. Hospital work. Teaching. Community projects. But surprise surprise it doesn't happen. The majority of non-jews cannot serve in the armed forces. So they cannot benefit from huge house-price discounts, business startup grants, etc etc etc. Even bars you from purchasing some land, reserved of course for the deserving servicemen. How differently ex-servicemen are treated everywhere else.

Its clever, and it allows Crystal to genuinely believe her country is discrimination free.

I think this is broadly correct. Israel does not, I believe, openly pass laws which are unquestionably discriminatory. Except the "right of return".

Discrimination is indirect, via exactly the one distinction Crystal underlines. The law simply gives huge number of extra advantages, rights, grants, discounts, to anyone who has served in the armed forces. Seems so reasonable doesn't it, so easy to defend ? Yet it is the hook on which discrimination is hung.

And of course it becomes a fine judgement, rather than an obvious crime. Who can prove whether the benefits are inappropriate in nature and excessive in amount ?

They could of course offer those refused entry to the armed forces other ways of earning the same benefits, away from the military. Hospital work. Teaching. Community projects. But it doesn't happen. The majority of non-jews cannot serve in the armed forces. So they cannot benefit from huge house-price discounts, business startup grants, etc etc etc. They can even be barred from purchasing certain land, reserved of course for the deserving servicemen and women. Almost any discrimination can appear innocent, simply by presenting it as a benefit for the ex-military. How differently ex-servicemen are treated everywhere else.

The neat thing is, using this indirect method allows Crystal to genuinely believe her country is discrimination free.

Before I begin to respond Elle, I should make one point very clear:

I did not serve in the army. Neither did most of my friends.

Most of us did not fit for army service due to various health or incompatibility issues. The rest just didnt want to get in, so we ensured that we'll be rejected during processing. (not all that difficult, really).

Therefor, both I and my friends are unable to get "ex-military benefits" as you describe them.

What is prevented of me? Lets see:

- Security jobs that require ex-military experience for combat training.
Concidering how I am not exactly planning to guard some bigshot or sit outside of a restaurant 24/7 with a gun and a menacing look, I think i'll pass.

- High profile goverment posts.
So I am not going to end up being the prime minister. Oh noez. Oh the other hand, I -could- become a high profile politician and get a cushy chair and a tempting sallary. And so can the Arabs we are discussing here. And, as a matter of fact - some of them allready did.

... and thats about it. Now lets go over the list benefits that you've provided:

- House discounts? I wish. My parents served in the army, and I know they'd love to get those discounts that you speak of. Neither of my immidiate family is getting any discount that has anything to do with their time in the army as far as I can tell.

- Business startup grants: These given regardless of your service status in the army. As a matter of fact, there was a time when I looked into the possibility of starting a startup (good ol' .com days), and trust me when I say that military service was not one of the requirements.

- On the issue of being barred of purchasing land - thats been allready proven as nonsense. If you can point out a single case in the last 3 years where anyone - regardless of ethnic origin - was rejected of purchasing land because they did not serve in the army, please point it out to me. This matters to me just as well because I did not serve in the armed forces. As far as I know, there has not been any such incidents.

Fair answer, CrystalS, and you are there on the ground. I'll go check my sources, see whether perhaps there are things going on you're not aware of. I think my main original source was Al Haaratz (spelling ?) when I looked into this a coupla years ago. Are they reliable, in your view ? Even if left wing ?

I have to say that giving any significant benefits to people who do something compulsory seems pretty strange to me, but it certainly depends critically on just how widespread and substantial these benefits actually are.

Maybe the IDF website will link to them. Hope I won't need to read Hebrew.

Most anti-israeli sentiments stem out of failure to really understand the full situation there.

For instance.. you see a palestinian child killed by an Israeli soldier, and you assume that's horrible and unjustified... After all, there'd be no reason in OUR society for that.

But when you consider that it's a regular practice of Palestinian terrorist groups to use children as suicide bombers, you start to realize that it's a bit more complicated.

there's only 50 years worth of oil left. wtf! get with the program.