Palestinians deliberately harrassed by sonic booms

It scares me the way our society has come to reason. We have this mentality that eveything is justified, because we and our allies are the good guys. Everytime someone points out the good guys doing something bad, we chime back in, it is alright because the bad guys do this. There are no good guys. There are no bad guys.

We have different groups of people with different hopes and dreams. The world doesn't dream of democratic capitalism with McDonald's on every corner. The world doesn't dream of an Israel controled by the good jews and suppression of the evil palestians. The world doesn't dream of anyone with an anti-American thought lying dead on sand and rock, so that American children can be safe.

We need to realize that all people are equal. All people deserve equal consideration, including people that think negatively of us. I think negatively of republicans on some level, but I have to find a way to live with them. Until we start realizing that we would be no different than those we criticize if in the same situation, and until we realize that these people are just as important as we are, there will be no way anything will get resolved.

We can't just try to ignore the bad things Israel does, because they are our friends, and then try to cover it up by simply stating that it is being done to bad people who do things like suicide bombings.

Would you prefer that we send in the tanks again?

Honestly, I tend to support Israel in most things.. I think they get MEGA screwed by the international community on a regular basis. You've got folks like Magnum who thinks that they are actually murdering their own people.. apparently to gain sympathy.. and it hasn't worked too well, because most european countries seem to kind of want Israel to go away.

But I can't really think of any reason to just constantly do this over Gaza.

I'll give Israel props on almost anything, simply because the odds have been horribly stacked against them since their inception. I mean, surrounded by people who not only dislike you, but wish for your eternal damnation every day? Geesh.

Besides, any country that a) invented the Desert Eagle, b) hunts down terrorists and kills them one by one , many years after they killed Israelis, and c) won a war called the Six Day War against several of its neighbors and adding huge chunks of territory, gets points in my book.

I imagine they'll stop sonic-booming Palestine after the Palestinians stop suicide-booming the marketplaces.

LF

I wonder how the conflict could possibly be maintained were it not for the maintenance of racial, religious and ideological separatism.

Imagine a world where it was not Palestinian and Israeli, not Muslim or Jew... just... people.

This hate has been passed down for generations, and today's children are learning their share of it.

Our species hasn't changed much during the thousands of years we've inhabited the planet.... although we have certainly excelled in inventing new and more effective ways to kill each other... it's sad, truly.

*hugs Roland*
Perhaps I can guess how hard that was.
Its so simple. That's all I needed to hear.
You made me shed a tear, dammit.
You just pulled my faith in human nature back up one tiny notch, Roland. Thank you.

I think you have a mistaken impression of my political views.

It's not really that hard to make the call that widespread psychological attacks on an entire population is kind of lame.

But, I still stand by my statement that I'm more worried about folks actually blowing each other up.

I simply don't accept that those are the two choices, Crystal. From the bottom of my heart. Those are NOT the only two choices.

There is absolutely no way that deliberately keeping a widespread civilian population awake all night with humungous bangs , including tiny terrified children, babies, pregnant women, has a legitimate military purpose.

Can you explain the military objectives this helps to achieve, Crystal?
I see none except to try to break the spirit and health of the people in general.
A hardened adult terrorist will stiffen his spine and take it in his stride. Indeed this gratuitous attack on his little children will strengthen his hatred and resolve. The youngest, oldest, weakest, most vulnerable will be most affected.

Would you support ANYTHING Israel did, Crystal, if they told you it was necessary ? However contrary to common sense and human decency ?

What sort of rage and hatred would it engender in you if Palestinian jets could do this with impunity over your house night after night ?

Come on Crystal - make that leap of empathy. Try to imagine your feelings if the situation was the other way round. Wouldn't you almost explode with impotent rage ?
Can't you even glimpse it ?

Thats ok. "Kind of lame" is oddly phrased, but fair enough. You don't approve of doing it. Thats all the hug was for. It's enough.

Umm, it's apartheid, not apartide. And Israeli National News is no more run by the Israeli government than the "American" Broadcasting Corp or the British Broadcasting Corp or the Canadian Broadcasting Corp's are run by the US, the UK or Canada. Apartheid is based on racism, and since there are Israelis who belong to most every race, how can you use that term? Israel is the only country in the middle east today where Arabs can vote in free, fair, and regular elections. There are Arab members of the Knesset. We may not agree with the policies of the occupation, but racism is a real problem for many many people and you denigrate their suffering by using it cavalierly.

Oh my goodness, the secret Jewish Cabal to take over the world! No, Ellie, you discredit yourselves. Magnum is on your side, and it shows how warped that side is. You post notices of "sonic booms hurting children!" and not "suicide bomber kills children". Your concern for silly things and your ability to ignore the serious is what discredits you. I've lived next to a large airport, and the sonic booms can be annoying. But now the Israelis are trying to reduce the terrorism in a non-violent manner and you still complain.

Well there's the thing. Breaking the spirit and health of the people is often times a military objective. There's a line between country (people, buildings, non-military institutions) and military that has always been blurry and crossed over in modern (and some non-modern) warfare. After all, it's the people that allow the military to fight and the people's spirits that back the military's actions. If you have a lot of tired, angry, people sick of the tensions, they're going to want it to stop, and considering the fatigue of the situation, chances are it might not be violently so.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not supporting these actions, but i'm also saying they're not meaningless too.

The problem here is, that this war there is beyond military, it's cultural. It's been around for thousands of years. It's the kind of thing a grown man will strap himself with explosives and walk into a crowded area for. When you have something that's been around THAT long, it's no longer about joining the military and fighting those "other people" then coming home and not really feeling much of the effects of it. This is something that's been around longer than a lot of countries have.

I guess the real question is, how far does Israel (or Palestine for that matter) need to go to end all these problems?

Please, please, please read your history. Thousands of years? Really? No, the conflict began after the British were granted the mandate for Palestine, which then included what is now the kingdom of Jordan too. This was after World War I, so it hasn't even been a century, let alone a few thousand years. Historically Jews and Muslims have had a better relationship than Jews and Christians and Muslims and Christians. It's a new conflict. That doesn't make it any more serious, but it's not some ancient blood feud either.

I am sorry Elle, but what you see from over there, is not quite the same as what you see from here.

The day we pulled out, they've announced loud and clear - Israel's pulling out was a "military victory for the terror groups", and they promised to continue with their terror attacks and even attempt to increase the wave in order to "drive the zionists from the rest of the land".

They promised, and they delivered.

Unfortunatly, this time, we cant get back in using our armed forces.

So instead, enter the sonic booms.

Those "women and children" (and, oh my - men as well, imagine that) are indeed the target. The damage is psycological. They attack us with psycological terror, we strike back.

When we dont, they call it "weakness" and try to increase their activities. You call that silly? I call that real life. You americans acted very differently the day you faced real terror right in the face. Lets see you live with it for more then 20 years in a row: Every week, an announcement about a terror explosion with wounded and casualties. Let me tell you how we live with it: We got used to it.

We're used to get reports of people dying. You open the radio, drink your coffee, hear about 4 people dying just like that in the middle of the street, get your keys and go to work.

We've a very small country. You can cross the whole place by car in two days.

Sometimes, if you're not lucky, you just might go past the road section where the terror strike was hit.

Sometimes you get to see them still washing the blood off the asphalt.

That doesnt happen alot though. We've got very efficent in cleaning up after the fact. Takes only an hour to clear the body pieces and resume the normal course of life in most places, unless they blow up a bus. Then it takes somewhat longer to tow the burnt vehicle away to clear the traffic and move it out of sight.

When you live with death like this Elle... sonic booms? Thats child play. You'd rather have us use this then pull the alternatives.

I want it to stop. I dont like any of whats going on. But it takes two to tango.

And so far, we're out of dance partners.

My professors in College talked about it. They clearly stated that beginning around 1895 the Jews who moved to Palestine begin forcing the Arabs out of homes they have owned for generations.

Bush being the most evil dictator of our time, deserves credit for the increased problems in the Middle East.

Bush is not an evil dictator. He is an evil president. And hardly the most evil of our time. Remember Nixon? Or Idi Amin? Or Pinochet? Or Somoza? Or Pol Pot? When you exaggerate to such an absurd degree people aren't going to listen to you at all.
Read a history book, the Jews who left the pogroms and discrimination in Europe had the permission of the the Ottomans to emigrate to the area. They were a tiny minority there and the idea that they could have forced the Arabs out of their houses and gotten away with it beggars belief. If the evil Jews were stealing the land, why is it that it's a crime in Palestinian Authority areas to sell land to a Jew? Isn't that racist? Why would it be a crime if it wasn't happening? Did you know that Jews were the majority in Jerusalem for centuries before the Jordanians illegally annexed the Old City? And forced the Jews out?

Old thread already, but ...

incorrect.

There are "gradations" to citizenship in Israel. A plalestinian does not have anything like full citizenship. Until all citizens are equal under the law it is effectively an apartheid state.

It is also one of the only places in the world where your racial satus is on your citienship card in big letters, so if it does not matter, why is it there?

Hint: If you have the one with "Arab" on it you are not a full citizen of Israel.

Israel (as background), is also one of the only places in the world that did big buisness with apartheid South Africa all through the troubles there and all the boycotts.

Guess who made and supplied all those tanks and guns and airplanes to South Africa while the rest of the world was singing "Free Nelson Mandela"?

Whites only resorts in South Africa (complete with armies of slaves) were also one of the main Israeli holiday destinations in the 70's and 80' if I remember correctly.

It's not an apartheid state. Palestinians are not Israelis. They don't want to be Israelis, they want their own state. It's like saying it's apartheid because Mexicans can't vote in the USA. Arab citizens of Israel have voting rights. Arab citizens of Syria don't. How odd. Israel has Arab members of the Knesset, Saudi Arabia doesn't even have an elected legislature. So there are more elected Arabs in Israel than in Saudi Arabia. Amazing. The Palestinians don't have Israeli citizenship because they aren't citizens of Israel. That is the essence of the dilemma faced by Israel since conquering the territories. If they annexed the land and made the inhabitants citizens (as happened after the War of Independence in Israel proper) then the Israelis are bad. If they don't annex the territory then the Israelis are bad. For decades Egypt occupied Gaza and didn't give the Arabs there citizenship. Was that racism? Decades ago Jordan annexed the West Bank and expelled the Jews living there, but granted citizenship to the Arabs. Was that racism? The Palestinians in Lebanon, who've been there decades are not legally allowed to work or own land. Is that racism?

Yes, Israel had close ties to South Africa. Was that because South Africa was racist? No, it was because there were so few countries in the world that would do business with Israel and South Africa was one of them.

Guess who bough South African diamonds and gold for their wedding rings? Our grandparents and, in many cases our parents. Grandparents! Oh my goodness, grandparents supported racism! Grandma and Grandpa paid for those tanks! Does anyone else see how silly this is?

Israel has citizens of nearly every race on earth. Does it have problems. Yeah. Is it a better place to live than any other country in the middle east? If you're a Jew, absolutely, if you're a woman, absolutely, if you're a Christian, absolutely, if you're an Arab Muslim, absolutely. Unless of course you're a Sheik or a King or a member of some petty tyrant's family. What should they do with the occupied territories? The Jordanians and Egyptians don't want them anymore, the Palestinian Authority is so corrupt and mismanaged that it can't even run Gaza. Should they let the radicals run a country next door?

What I find amazing is the double standard so many people set for Israel. They put your nationality on your passport and people get upset. Jews are not legally allowed to enter the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and you don't hear a peep. There are sonic booms over Gaza and people are all up in arms, but the President of Iran says the Jewish State should be destroyed and not a single post. Amazing

i find a bit ironic peoples from a country that burned vietnam under 19 million gallons of agent orange permitting themselve to argue about sonic booms

its something between israel and palestine , not United States business

I'm not commenting on anything else in this thread, but the above posting I feel deserves an answer.

There is nothing ironic at all about Americans being appalled by what is happening in the Middle East, despite their own nation's mistakes of the past. You seem to be equating individual people with the government of the country in which they live - always a mistake.

And as far as the Israel/Palestine conflict goes, you are wrong to say it is purely something between the two countries. No, it is not. Any conflict has global repercussions. Any denial of human rights has an effect on all of us.

Wow Michael, that was very well stated. I am surprised and impressed at your non-bias.

And, Dianne, my bad for using Palestinian instead of Arab, sorry...

eadch state should sweet before his own door before judgeing another

US is responsible of most of the last horrors and war crimes of the last century, but you know what? only winners write the history

Are you talking about the animals who blow up busses with israelie school kids on them?
Or the ones who danced in the streets on 911?
Rox