Palestinians deliberately harrassed by sonic booms

Your "professors" were full of crap.

Crystal - I empathize with your people too, in this terrible situation.

But why do you speak as though the situation is symmetrical?

Two points on asymmetry.

1. Moral

Should an elected government, acting through its trained and disciplined forces, sink to the same moral level as an almost impotent, hate-filled mob of semi-independent individuals, working through the implications of their individual grief, rage, mass humiliation and desire for revenge ?

What has the morality of the suicide bomber's actions to do with the morality of what claims to be a modern humane western-style democracy, fit to join the community of most civilized nations? The whole point of law and order, and of justice, and respect for human rights, is that it is NOT "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth".

Shouldn't a civilised government work to higher standards than a rabble ?

2. Practical

Both sides are saying "I'll only stop if you stop". Each regards the other as the incident initiator, themselves as the justified responder. To break out of this cycle of violence one party has to stop first, and accept that the other will only follow suit slowly and bit by bit. Which should it be ? Which is simply in practice more able to stop?

Obviously the Israeli cabinet. A single order, typed in five minutes, could stop all active attacks by the Israeli military. The palestinians are split, in disarray. No single order from one hand can stop more than a small proportion of attacks. Individual decisions are being made all over the place. Chaotic and out of control. Only visible cessation of Israeli attacks can begin to influence all these disparate sources of danger. None but the most crazed (equivalent to the extremist settlers) would fail to respond after a while.

Admittedly such am Israeli cabinet would have to deal with the possibility of subsequent dissent in the Knesset, and ultimately from the electorate. But they would certainly have time for it to begin to show results. The fear of showing weakness is itself a deeper weakness. The world would see a solid, no conditions, unilateral and unbreakable one-year-ceasefire as strength, and intelligence, and would honor Israel for it.

Summary:
Israel should act first with a solid unilateral unconditional longlasting ceasefire, meticulously involving zero harassment of the innocent. Because they alone could make it stick, and because, as an elected democracy, they should aspire to higher moral standards than their opponents

I have never seen this "asymmetry of opportunity and obligation" argument put forward elsewhere, but to me it is of the essence. Anyone willing to address it without sidestepping ?

I entirely disassociate myself from Magnum's allegation that the Israeli secret service is routinely suicide-bombing Israel. My hypothesizing that he might be an Israeli plant was irony, to show where conspiracy theories can lead.

To attempt to denigrate an opponent in a discussion by forcibly allying him with one with whom he disagrees is not an honorable tactic. My opinions are my own, not those of others. As are yours. As are Magnum's.

There are no animals involved here, Rox. That is exactly the sort of language, and thinking which we should all avoid. Everyone, on both sides, is a thinking, feeling, suffering human being, however misguided or desperate or deluded or mistaken. Try hard to see it - you will grow in humanity.

Your rational thoughts and objectivity have no place in the Off Topic forums; get the hell out.

I have to disagree.

People who intentionally target innocent civilians are indeed animals. They get no sympathy from me.

Indeed, I believe they are lower than animals. Animals simply act based on instinct, and very rudimentary intelligence. Suicide bombers know what they're doing, and CHOOSE to take such action.

This doesnt' work.

Israel's tried this.. many times.. and it never works. They just continue to get blown up.

You see, the problem is that the idiot terrorists see Israeli gestures of good will, as weakness. They say, "Look! Blowing them up with suicide bombers WORKED! We should continue to do it!"

Israel continues to give, and they get NOTHING in return.

And, sorry, but this is largely due to people like you, so say things like:


When you treat people as though they were uncivilized animals who can't even be EXPECTED to not blow themselves up and murder civilians, then those people will become uncivilized animals.

You know perfectly well that they are people. You're applying the term animals to express your utter contempt of their methodology, but by doing so you're completely undermining your other arguments, by showing a willingness to substitute factual information with with emotionally charged wording. No soup for you.

All humans are animals, Taco.

I simply don't associate those individuals with the additional features that come with humanity.

Then you've managed to de-humanize them, as they've done to their victims, which is your problem with them in the first place.

Yes, but like it or not, they belong to the same species as you. And me.

If I respect their rights as humans, those animals will respect the rights of Israeli civilians, and not blow them up?

Somehow, I think not.

Ok now you're just trying to win awards.

Uh.. that's not exactly an example of circular logic, Taco.

Circular logic is actually a term that has a well defined meaning.

Indeed. A good example of which would be the following statement:

"I consider Group A to be less-than-human because they consider Group B to be less-than-human, and I find that considering a group to be less-than-human is unacceptable".

On the plus side, you evidently get to lose some of your Madness.

No, that's actually not an example of circular logic either.

An example of circular logic involves assuming that the point you are trying to prove is true.

Okay, now that's just plain silly. Most of the the horrors and war crimes of the last century? The USA was responsible for Nazi Germany's atrocities? Or for the deaths of millions under Stalin? Or for the genocide in Cambodia? How about the "Cultural Revolution" in China? Was that the US's fault? Blaming the USA for things it had no responsibility for makes it harder for you to get people to understand the things the USA is responsible for. Like Vietnam, like right wing dictatorships in Latin America. The three greatest horrors of the last century, the Nazi death camps, the deliberate famine in the Soviet Union and the the genocide in Cambodia were not the actions of the USA. The US has made some stupid mistakes, but didn't make all the mistakes.

Forcibly? I used force? No, Ellie, it's called free speech. Even if you don't like it, it's still not force. It's like comparing sonic booms and suicide bombings. Not the same thing. I didn't ally you with Magnum, you two allied yourselves with each other.

Absolutely right. No symmetry here at all. When the state of Israel was founded it was illegally invaded by five of it's neighbors. No war crimes trials from that war were ever held. Why not? Aren't Arabs held to the same standard as others? When Arab states occupied the West Bank and Gaza why didn't the world cry out for the Palestinians? When Jordan illegally annexed the West Bank and deported the Jews in the Old City where was the world's outrage?

Arab states funnel millions to terrorist organizations in the occupied territories. Terrorist organizations that were used to attack other Arab states as well as Israel. When Israel's neighbors give up terrorism and embrace democracy and human rights then there might be symmetry. The conflict between Israel and the Palestinians has been a convenient distraction for the Arab dictatorships and monarchies of the region. If Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Syria wanted a stable Palestinian government, there'd be one today. It's not in their interests to have peace, so they fund terror. As long as their people can blame Israel and the US for their problems they won't overthrow the regimes truly responsible for those problems. Hold the other players in the region to the same standards as you do the Israelis and then there will be symmetry.

some american atrocities:

-use of trench guns on the german soldiers in the first world war, the effectiveness and level of buchery of these guns in the trenches was so bad that germans argued that no american soldier wearing a trench gun would be taken prisoner ,but killed imediately)
-hiroshima and (was unnecessary and more of a sick scientific test that killed more than 80 000 civilians)
-nagasaki (if hiroshima was an "estimation error" nagasaki couldnt really be and such can only be an act of pure cruelty agains inocent civilians)
these two bombs gave deep sequels to the survivors and definitely marked the whole japan

-agent orange as i said it before was an herbicide used by USA during the viet nam war, the idea was to destroy any vegetation the enemy could use to hide itself, a little detail has been forgot however, its the rather interesting composition of this shit and the effect it has on humans:
Agent Orange was a 50-50 mix of two chemicals, known conventionally as 2,4,D and 2,4,5,T. The combined product was mixed with kerosene or diesel fuel and dispersed by aircraft, vehicle, and hand spraying. agent orange was heavily contaminated by TCDD and dioxin and caused many diseases (many of them letal)

still today agent orange show its sequel, over 650 000 persons in vietnam suffer from the sequels of the viet nam war while 500 000 already died of it . Some of the victims are veterans who were doused in these chemicals during the war, others are farmers who lived off land that was sprayed. The second generation are the sons and daughters of war veterans, or children born to parents who lived on contaminated land. Now there is a third generation, the grandchildren of the war and its victims.

New scientific research, however, confirms what the Vietnamese have been claiming for years. It also portrays the US government as one that has illicitly used weapons of mass destruction, stymied all independent efforts to assess the impact of their deployment, failed to acknowledge cold, hard evidence of maiming and slaughter, and pursued a policy of evasion and deception.

Evidence has also emerged that the US government not only knew that Agent Orange was contaminated, but was fully aware of the killing power of its contaminant dioxin, and yet still continued to use the herbicide in Vietnam for 10 years of the war and in concentrations that exceeded its own guidelines by 25 times. As well as spraying the North Vietnamese, the US doused its own troops stationed in the jungle, rather than lose tactical advantage by having them withdraw.

In l986, there was the evil Colonel Gaddafi, whose country President Reagan bombed from bases in Britain,killing mostly women and children.

In l990, there was the evil Gen. Noreiga, said to be a dangerous drugs trafficker, whose capture by US marines required a full-scale invasion of his country and the death by bombing of at least 2000 Panamanians.

In the same year, there was Saddam Hussain, whose regime USA had armed and backed.
Saddams use of American and British weapons in his attack on the evil mullahs in Iran in l980 was perfectly acceptable. A million people died in that forgotten war; and the American and British arms industries never looked back.

Alas Saddam,attacked the wrong country, Kuwait, which is effectively an Anglo-American oil protectorate. An uppity bastard, as one State Department briefer described him more in sorrow than anger. Punishing the uppity bastard cost as many as 200,000 Iraqi lives.

This old fashioned colonial massacre was called the Gulf War. The dead included thousands of Kurdish and Shia people who were Saddams bitter opponents and whom Bush had called upon to rise up against their oppressor. Long after it was over. New York Newsday revealed from official sources, that three brigades of the US lst Mechanised Infantry Division The Big Red One had used snowploughs mounted on tanks to bury alive Iraqi conscripts in more than seventy miles of trenches.

In l992 USA attack Bagdad with 23 Cruise missiles. These destroyed a residential area, killing, once again, most women and children, including Iraqs most distinguished artist, Leila al-Attar.
The pretext for the attack was an Iraqi plot to kill George Bush on a visit to Kuwait. There was no hard evidence and the plot story.

some curious informations i gathered:
--------------------------------------------

USA claims to be conducting a war on terrorism against a network (al-Qaeda) it helped create to fight proxy wars on its behalf (in Afghanistan and the Balkans.)

They says hey must bring anthrax terrorists to justice, but have the world's largest stockpile of smallpox, anthrax, and other biological weapons.
USA continues to experiment with new weaponized pathogens and refuses to agree to measures to strengthen a biological weapons treaty. And there's evidence US armed forces have used biological weapons (in the Korean War.)

Its global military presence expands every year, encircling one of the few countries left to challenge its hegemony -- Russia.

In one country alone (South Korea), which it has occupied for over five decades, it has 45,000 soldiers.

shall i continue?

The comments regarding hiroshima and nagasaki are amusing.

We should have continued with conventional bombing runs! Like the one on Tokyo that killed WAY more than either of the nuclear bombs.

After all, it doesn't matter how many people you kill... if you use a nuclear bomb to bring an end to a world conflict, it's bad.

i guess the othercomments are less, but i guess its easy to forget the past isnt it?

sonic booms LOL

In all honesty, I kind of stopped paying attention after reading your take on nagasaki and hiroshima.

Wow Elle why don't you come run our country since you know so much better then us what's going on.

Clearly the generations of men & women trying to fix the situation aren't nearly as smart as you.

We're all just stupid barbarians & have never thought of the points your making. Thank god we have you to educate us.

Oh, & I Especially like your logical approach considering America's peaceful reaction to terrorism. Maybe if we had the money to destroy every country that does us wrong, we could talk about taking the high road too.

Apologies for getting you mad etc., but it had to be said. The truth will set you free etc.

A lot of your response I could pick holes in as it really does not make a lot of sense and some of it is very misleading. Especially the stuff aout Israeli citizenship (but I wont go there).

Clearly I have mad you angry about the topic so I wont press it beyond saying that you are mistaken in some of your analogies and the way in which you are so carefully describing the relationship betwen SA and Israel.

If you relax, and think about it, leave your biases behind, and dont think about whether the Palestinians are "even worse," you will see that there *is* something there for Israel (as a country) to be deeply ashamed of.

This was not meant to be a blanket "Israel is evil" kind of post. It's just a fact that Israel had "no problems" dealing with South Africa during the same period that it was a pariah to the rest of the world. These are facts. It wasn't just that *some* Israelis travelled there, it was the "Hawaii" of Israel for that period. An immensely popular holiday destination.

Instead of engaging in a program of denial, it might be healthier for all concerned to just admit it, and move on.

Part of the reason I even brought it up at all, is that almost not many people are aware of these facts as they are constantly surpressed by the media. That and the fact that you were asserting that Israel had "nothing to do with apartheid" or words to that effect.