Where do the dinosaurs fit into the Bible?

No, there are honest ways and there are dishonest ways. Blunting your message by watering it down to meet some politically correct standard, so as not to offend anyone, is dishonest, because it's not what you really think or feel. Part of the reason no one really understands anyone else is because of the social taboo that says you have to water down what you think in order to be "polite."

I think you're wrong with this assessment, but I also think Kurg's summary is incorrect, too.

Watering down a belief in order to discuss it with someone is often necessary for understanding - not even politeness. For example, I think Fantasy Sports leagues are retarded and a waste of brain cells and money - but I'm not going to express the full extent of that to people who may enjoy it.

I disagree with Kurg, as well. Old Testament Stories - which have no secondary historical corroboration - can be called myths. Dictionary.com:

myth ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mth)
1. n. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.

This doesn't say there is or isn't truth in the myths. Conventionally, we use the word "myth" to mean a made-up fairy tale ... but in the context of religion, "myth" is an extremely relevant word to use.

So both of you, please ... back in your corners.

Er, yeah... because the best way to make someone understand what you believe is to say something other than what you actually think

You assume the point is to "make someone understand what you believe". Sometimes the point is simply to discuss a topic.

And even if your assumption was true, sometimes people understand things so differently that the distance betwen two peoples' understanding cannot be made in one leap - that it has to be broken up into smaller distances of understanding.

Sorry, Hiro. I understand where you're coming from, and I applaud the desire for empathy and compassion that underlies that kind of politically correct selling short of your own ideals... but I will always feel that political correctness sells us all short. I'll take a genuine representation of where someone's coming from over having sunshine blown up my ass any day. Candy coatings will rot your teeth out eventually.

"Um, no honey, that idea doesn't make you look fat at all" *cough*

That *cough* is why divorce is so prevalent.

Don't you know the only valid answer is, "Honey, nothing can make you look fat! You always look thin!"

Yes, but as more and more times goes by, the stories seem to be proven by archeology and science (not all mind you, but many that we once said to be nothing but fiction)...

Well, I do take it conventionally, and I probably shouldn't. It is a great problem to try to communicate with words (as Chip's thread explored) with so many people and such diverse social climates.

All I am asking for is what Aretha asked for so long ago (just don't sock it to me too hard)...

Well, I have to say that I truly do respect Chip in these discussions, and the more I see of other folks, the more I respect them as well (well, OK, most of them anyway).

I disagree with you to a large degree here Chip. I did not water my thoughts down, but I also did not intentionally disrespect someone else's beliefs. Some things need not be said, period.

If my wife looks fat (which she does not), there is absolutely no reason I should tell her. What are the rewards for doing such? The rewards for this folly is only pain and hurt (generally for all parties involved), so why do it at all? If she is asking, she is obviously conscious of it, and if it is a problem for her, she will do something about it. If she is just doing it to pump herself up when I say no, why should I not do so? I would love my wife no matter what, I love her heart, so why would I want to hurt her?

The same goes for the forum guests as well. Even though I do not know them, why would I want to insult them? To troll? As you saw in an earlier post, I was forced to show something that is not very comforting to Jewish believers in a translation of the Hebrew texts. I did not do so to hurt any one, but to answer a question. If there were a way around it, I would not have posted it.

That's where we disagree We live in a country where minority beliefs are under constant attack by overbearing Christians. We are all affected greatly by Christian beliefs even if we'd prefer not to be. We're forced to live under laws that are based in Christian belief (our drug laws, tax laws, marriage laws, sex laws, and on and on) for which there are no logical secular justifications. We are bullied and marginalized. I can't think of anything more desperately in need of blunt, honest, and frank discussion than religion, and Christianity in particular. Political correctness as it relates to religion amounts to asking marginalized people to be more polite and understanding of their oppressors. Atheists are cranky with good reason.

I think what you have to try to keep in mind is when I speak out strongly against Christianity I'm attacking ideas, not people. Taking personal offense always seems to me like a way of silencing people and marginalizing their opinion. I'm not sure how someone can speak out against Christianity without, um, speaking out against Christianity.

I often discuss other religions in the negative, by pointing out the real issues that make the religion bad in my opinion. For example, one could say Christianity is wrong, because Christians base their faith on a man who was Himself a Jew (I disagree with this argument, it's just an example). That would be an argument to point out problems with the religion from an atheist's perspective.

To say 'Christianity is stupid, and Christians worship the tooth fairy' wouldn't be a valid argument for debate. Although it may be your opinion, there is no discussing it as a point. There can be no rebuttle or counter point. It can only lead to a back and forth personal attack.

I understand it can be frustrating to be a minority, attacked for no other reason than one's personal beliefs, in fact, being a Follower of Christ in most forums is being a minority opinion. I expect the attacks, but I would rather discuss ideas than to fight personally.

As far as I can see, the atheist/agnostic side is well represented. And those who do believe in God haven't attacked anyone for being atheist, or even attacked atheism, unless I missed it.

Agreed

Agreed

I do not agree (well, maybe by governmental rule, but Christians can claim the same with regard to the way they want things run by the government, and are not, too).

I, as a programmer, have never felt violated by any of my customers. However, I also work construction, and in doing so, have been harassed for being a Christian on many occasions. They will tell unpleasant jokes and make snide comments strictly to try to troll me into a confrontation. While I have never offered my opinions on anything religious unless I was asked about it first, I certainly do not hide that fact that I am Christian (I pray in silence before eating, I don't laugh at the crude jokes, and I don't fall into line in making fun of those around me).

I can't say that I have any more empathy for atheists, gays, theists, etc than any other group. They are all belittled when they get outside of their own group. All groups should be cared for by Christians. Jesus loved all of us exactly the same, not matter what our sins were.

Honest and frank for sure, but why blunt? Why should you not care about what your audience will think of your statements. I certainly do, before I open my mouth (well, most times, but I wish all the time).

Do you honestly think I have marginalized my opinions on Christianity? I don't think so. I am open and honest about it while still trying not to offend someone. I have not said, Chip, what the hell are you thinking man. Take a look around you, are you stupid? God created all this, how can you not believe in Him?

Why have I not done this, when God is so obvious to me? Because I have walked in your shoes (atheist shoes that is) in my life. I understand why my comments seem so ludicrous. I also understand that you are not stupid because you believe differently than me. I respect the fact that you are willing to discuss things with me (and the world at large), even when we agree to disagree.

Well, some of them (the good reasons) yes, I would agree. But, there is a lot more to be cranky with in organized religious bodies than there is to do with the Bible and Christianity itself (at least in my opinion). And this hatred is poured over all Christians as if they all agreed with what those in the public eye say and do.

When I see a very rotund preacher man spouting how Christians are not to over indulge, it makes me angry that he is representing me to the world as a Christian. When I see neo-nazis spouting their racial slurs against anyone not white in the name of Jesus, it makes me angry for the same reason. When I see a black preacher calling on blacks to come together as Christians to overcome the "man's" oppression, it makes me angry. When I see Christian preachers stand up and say, Christians, we need to get a man of God in the White House, so get out and vote for GWB, it makes me angry. But, that should not be held against those that follow the Bible, unless they too espouse these views.

I am not so sure you should, nor do. I can guess that before we started discussing things, you had me pegged in a specific light as a Christian. There are probably a lot of things you still assume of me (as I you) that are not true. For instance, as a Christian, I am supposed to be pro-life. But, I am pro-choice. Not that I believe in abortion as being a legitimate way to end a life, but more that I do not feel it is my place to insist my moral values be followed by others. So, for example, should you attack Christianity on a pro-life stance, or should you attack individual Christians for such? I would say the latter.

I have no problem with someone saying, I don't believe in Jesus. But to say Jesus was a baby killer, I do have a problem.

I don't have a problem with some saying, your Bible is a myth, unless it is geared towards belittling everything I have just stated I believe. Is it any different that saying, Your full of crap and I don't owe you an explanation why?

It is when you generalize that Christianity is a myth, as if it has been proven false, that I have a problem. This [post=729663]post[/post] is a perfect example of such (sorry to single you out Kris, but it was rather offensive to me). While it did not mention myth, it certainly does belittle Christianity, by way of reducing the Bible to comedic insinuation.

Here is yet another [post=731967]post[/post] from you Chip. You lambast the idea of the ark, seemingly without even reading the links on the subject that were provided which answer the questions you pose as a slam. If you had a problem with one of the points of any (or all) of the articles, why not mention them in your follow up, instead if just saying to me and the forum, Man are you stupid. If you were truly not interested in talking about it, why even post?

Please, allow me to summarize this entire thread for those who haven't the time nor desire to read the entire thing.

Player1: "I believe X"
Player2: "I believe Y, so therefore you're an asshat for believing X"
Player1: "Am not"
Player2: "Are too"
ad infinitum.

This has gone beyond the point of absurdity.

Actually, I've rather enjoyed the interplay over the last four or five pages. Interesting points have been made, in an adversarial and yet humorous and somewhat respectful manner. I'm surprised at the lack of rancor - these are obviously people who have finally come to terms with each others' POV... until the next time one of them goes into berserker mode.

Kurgan, I enjoy your posts, and I truly respect your willingness to engage in debate with a great deal of patience. That being said, it's when you assert that my saying Christianity is based on mythology is an insult that we part ways. I think that Christianity is based on mythology. That is my belief. It is no different than your belief that the bible is the literal word of your god. I could just as easily claim that's an insult to atheists and complain that you express it, but I don't, because that would be silly. How could I expect you to honestly express yourself if I make you walk on eggshells?

We're so conditioned and indoctrinated with the idea that religious dissent is taboo and impolite that I don't think most people realize they're enforcing it, and that it's irrational. If I told you I think a tv show you really like is moronic, insipid, and a waste of electrons, would you take that as a personal insult? If you love cabbage and I think it tastes like rotten eggs, would it be an insult for me to say it? Ask yourself why religious belief is treated differently. It's purely social conditioning meant to guilt people into silence. I'm not saying you or anyone else does it with conscious intent, but that is the underlying foundation of the taboo.

Christianity is not only based on mythology, it is mythology.

~Ulrika~

The respect is certainly reciprocated.

I will learn to harden my skin I guess. If you read back through the posts on this thread and others, you will see that the mythology comment was a mild one (the reason I chose it).